Kilrathi Grand Fleet...could it have been stopped?

First about the Ves vs Dreadnaught...I think there is really no question about who would win in a fit that is close range. Back to the drawing board confed....

As to the missions in Sol. LOAF I like your idea a lot, that kinda what I was trying to get at. I just wasn't sure if it would seem right for confed to be defending all these bases that aren't going to make it anyhow. I mean I figured the main goal would have been just to destroy as much of the kat fleet as possible to prevent a large attack on earth.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
They're just carriers that happen to carry a lot of fighters - versus a very heavy dreadnought designed for stand up fights. Without a solid idea of how many fighters the 22 km dreadnought carry (and based on previous Kilrathi dreadnought designs, I'd bet its a lot), it'd be a hard call... but if it came to Vesuvius-class vs. Hvarr'kann-class in a clone range fight, it's no contest.
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The Vesuvius is just as heavy shielded. But its Armor is much thicker than that of the Kilrahti Dreadnaught.

Besides the size of the Dreadnaught makes is more vulnarable, the lasers ar spreaded much wider apart. It's acceleration and manouvaribiltiy are quite less than that of a Confed Super Carrier.

Plus the Vesuvius has more powerfull gun emplacments. Anti-Fighter and Anti-Capships.While the Hvarr'kann-class has mostly laser batteries, and the range of lasers is significantly lesser than that of Anti-matter and Mass Driver turrets.

Imagine that the Vesuvius could keep its distance because of the speed it has. Wen the first shots are fired, the Vesuvius, would have already delivered a crippling blow to the Dreadnaught.

Don't think of David that fought Goliath with a piece of cloth and stones.
Think of David aiming a 45 Magnum right betweem the eyes of the big ass M*therf*cker
 
Colonel Jim said:
The Vesuvius is just as heavy shielded. But its Armor is much thicker than that of the Kilrahti Dreadnaught.

Besides the size of the Dreadnaught makes is more vulnarable, the lasers ar spreaded much wider apart. It's acceleration and manouvaribiltiy are quite less than that of a Confed Super Carrier.
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The Kilrathi dreadnought has a super-sized missile launcher up front, and a LOT of turrets from what we've seen. It took a ramming from a light carrier without getting staggered, and I'd venture that the Victory on ramming speed carries a lot more energy than the guns on the Vesuvius can deliver.

What gave you the impression the lasers were spread really wide apart? They had enough anti-fighter laser turrets to keep the Strakhas in False Colors occupied for some time... and it was the damage to the front munitions bay which did in the Vorghath's offensive capabilities. Heck, the missiles blew up in it, and it was already wounded, but the ship survived.

And given that the ship is 22km long, the supercarrier does have a maneuvering advantage... though, being blunt, it isn't much of one.

Colonel Jim said:
Plus the Vesuvius has more powerfull gun emplacments. Anti-Fighter and Anti-Capships.While the Hvarr'kann-class has mostly laser batteries, and the range of lasers is significantly lesser than that of Anti-matter and Mass Driver turrets.

Imagine that the Vesuvius could keep its distance because of the speed it has. Wen the first shots are fired, the Vesuvius, would have already delivered a crippling blow to the Dreadnaught.
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Actually, if you didn't notice, there ARE more weapons on that thing. Like the huge missile launcher in the front of the ship, which is part of the 'classified' inventory of weapons that the dreadnought carries. The laser batteries actually have MORE range than the AMGs or mass drivers, but without the same punch.

Beyond which, if the WC4 supercarrier fight is anything to go by, they weren't designed to mix it up personally like battleships - both craft suffered significant damage, and if the Border Worlds or the Mt. St. Helens had more bombers to throw at the Vesuvius, that fight would have ended a lot more quickly than it did.

On the other hand, we've got the WC3 losing track where the Dreadnought literally wades into the middle of a Confed fleet, taking hits and dealing out more damage than it receives. It WAS designed to mix it up at close range, versus the Vesuvius which was designed to use its 400 fighters on a target with enough guns to fend off any destroyers which got too close for comfort.

Colonel Jim said:
Don't think of David that fought Goliath with a piece of cloth and stones.
Think of David aiming a 45 Magnum right betweem the eyes of the big ass M*therf*cker
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Actually, I think of it as David fighting Goliath with a Glock 17 while Goliath is wearing Level IV body armor with ceramic inserts and carrying an axe. David's well-armed, but he wasn't designed for the infighting that Goliath excels at.
 
Point Wel Taken, But stil look at it`s armor, Its quite a lot less than that of the Super Carrier.

Ok wat if we put 2 super carriers against the Dreadnaught.
 
You're comparing the in-game specifications of the Hvar'kann (38 lasers, nothing else) to the 'total' specifications of the Vesuvius (AMGs, neutron turrets, torpedo rooms, etc.), though. You have to take into account the descriptions of the Hvar'kann class from False Colors - that the 38 dual laser turrets are its capital calibur weaponry, and that it then has hundreds of point defense turrets, a huge planetary missile launcher and an armament of heavy bombardment weaponry (presumably the 'tip' generators).

Just experience should tell you that the specific armor numbers aren't enough to compare such vastly different ships - four high yield WC3 style antimatter torpedoes won't take out a Kilrathi dreadnought... but you can destroy the Vesuvius with just a pair of the lower powered WC4 fusion torpedoes.

(And look how the dreadnought performed in False Colors - a Landreich surprise attack involving a heavy carrier and various ships of the line were enough only to cripple the ship... and it was already damage to begin with.)
 
Armor isn't everything "Colonel". You also have to take into account the ship's tonnage as well as the hull construction, redundant systems, and the structural tolerance of the material and the frame.

And I never heard of a caliber called the "45 Magnum".
 
Bandit LOAF said:
You're comparing the in-game specifications of the Hvar'kann (38 lasers, nothing else) to the 'total' specifications of the Vesuvius (AMGs, neutron turrets, torpedo rooms, etc.), though. You have to take into account the descriptions of the Hvar'kann class from False Colors - that the 38 dual laser turrets are its capital calibur weaponry, and that it then has hundreds of point defense turrets, a huge planetary missile launcher and an armament of heavy bombardment weaponry (presumably the 'tip' generators).

Just experience should tell you that the specific armor numbers aren't enough to compare such vastly different ships - four high yield WC3 style antimatter torpedoes won't take out a Kilrathi dreadnought... but you can destroy the Vesuvius with just a pair of the lower powered WC4 fusion torpedoes.

(And look how the dreadnought performed in False Colors - a Landreich surprise attack involving a heavy carrier and various ships of the line were enough only to cripple the ship... and it was already damage to begin with.)
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Sorry I'haven't read "False Colors" I'd very much like to

I like to note, that Planetary Missles and planetary bombardment weoponry won't do much good in a space combat situation.

Psych said:
Armor isn't everything "Colonel". You also have to take into account the ship's tonnage as well as the hull construction, redundant systems, and the structural tolerance of the material and the frame.
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Ship's tonnage isn't much of relevance in space. In certain situations it is a disadvantage. Structural Tolerance of the Material.....that is another story because I'think there isn't much diverence in Kilrathi and Confed alloy. Don't forget that the superstructure of the Confed Super Carriers uses entirely new alloys, as "Pliers" pointed out to blair when he was going to use the Flash Pak.

Architectual you made a good point, because with the exception of the dreadnaughts engines and hanger bay, there does'nt seem to be many weakspots on the outside.

And there is always the Human factor, think of tactics and battleplans. Now I stil think it wouldn't be impossible.

And I never heard of a caliber called the "45 Magnum".
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Sorry I'm sort of a Harley Fan and I'd mixed up two different contexts Because 45 magnum is an Engine.
 
Colonel Jim said:
The Vesuvius is just as heavy shielded. But its Armor is much thicker than that of the Kilrahti Dreadnaught.
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Armor is thicker, but since your such a statboy, take a look at the core strength. The Dreadnaught is 13 times "structurally" stronger than the Vesuvius. This is something like taking 2 inches of armor plating and putting it on a Pinto and taking 1 inch of armor and putting it on a Tank (hell thats probably giving the Vesuvius too much credit, maybe a go kart and a tank would be a better analogy) then starting to shoot at them. I'll take the tank, you can have the Pinto.
Colonel Jim said:
Imagine that the Vesuvius could keep its distance because of the speed it has. Wen the first shots are fired, the Vesuvius, would have already delivered a crippling blow to the Dreadnaught.
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I'm pretty sure I remember peeling at least a half dozen AMG's off the Dreadnaught, so its not without some heavy weapons. Also IIRC, most of the Vesuvi heavy gun placements are on the front of the ship, so if your running from the Dreadnaught you only bring to bear a few of your heavier guns. Then it goes back to who will outlast whom.

C-ya
 
psych said:
Armor isn't everything "Colonel". You also have to take into account the ship's tonnage as well as the hull construction, redundant systems, and the structural tolerance of the material and the frame.

And I never heard of a caliber called the "45 Magnum".
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.45 Winchester Magnum actually is an obscure handgun caliber that you don't come across very often, but it does exist.


I had always assumed that the Kilrathi dreadnought was destroyed when the Victory was rammed into it, they just cut to a different scene instead of showing the obvious. After all, Victory may have been relatively small, but she was still an aircraft carrier traveling at high speed with a stockpile of torpedoes. Just think of what Spirit's little Sabre did to an entire starbase. Come to think of it, why would'nt Confed use a fleet of old fashioned ramming ships that could be remotely controlled or manned by a skeleton crew that could eject after plotting an impact course? That would be devastating to an enemy fleet.
 
I'm a statboy among statboys.

Face it a ship of 22 km in lenght is bound to have limits. Lets say the Vesuvius would hit a part head on with its heavy turrets, once the shield are down on that part, the weaponry would sheer through it's hull like a knife trough hot butter.

A tank is only armored on the outside, once a armor piercing shell goes through it's chances are slim. Look at the mass of both ships. And compare them to there sizes/volumes. Talk about tough.
 
McGruff said:
.45 Winchester Magnum actually is an obscure handgun caliber that you don't come across very often, but it does exist.


I had always assumed that the Kilrathi dreadnought was destroyed when the Victory was rammed into it, they just cut to a different scene instead of showing the obvious. After all, Victory may have been relatively small, but she was still an aircraft carrier traveling at high speed with a stockpile of torpedoes. Just think of what Spirit's little Sabre did to an entire starbase. Come to think of it, why would'nt Confed use a fleet of old fashioned ramming ships that could be remotely controlled or manned by a skeleton crew that could eject after plotting an impact course? That would be devastating to an enemy fleet.
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Yes youre right dude. about both subjects.

And Yes the Victory took allot of them basterds with it.
 
I regret to have to inform you that the Kitty dreadnought apparently carries *weaponry* that outmasses The Vesusuvius. that, and the annoying "classified" armaments... it should be possible to figure out how long it would take for the Vesuvius to knock down the Dreadnought, figure from that what it would take for the Dreadnought to kill the Vesuvius first, and figure out that the chances the Kats didnt put that much firepower onto a 22-kilometer long doomstick is about the same chance Psych will never again rip on somebody.
 
Colonel Jim said:
I'm a statboy among statboys.

Face it a ship of 22 km in lenght is bound to have limits. Lets say the Vesuvius would hit a part head on with its heavy turrets, once the shield are down on that part, the weaponry would sheer through it's hull like a knife trough hot butter.

A tank is only armored on the outside, once a armor piercing shell goes through it's chances are slim. Look at the mass of both ships. And compare them to there sizes/volumes. Talk about tough.
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Face it you are both wrong and a turd at the same time.

Let's say I have an assault rifle with armor piercing bullets and I was able to penetrate an inch of armor on a car and I really screwed it up. Now I turn my attention on a 3 story mansion with no armor, you think my little assault rifle is going to magically make it lose its structural integrity, or make it explode, or make it all break apart and all of it crumble down?

The car I blew up with the armor plating was the Vesuvius, the house that wouldn't die is the dreadnought.

So can the Vesuvius take more punishment then the dreadnought just cause the armor is thicker?

No. (And if you reverse my answer you get 'on', which means the 18-year old Colonel can sit 'on' my fist).
 
ah, slow down, guys - it's certainly a perfectly valid topic for discussion.

Face it a ship of 22 km in lenght is bound to have limits. Lets say the Vesuvius would hit a part head on with its heavy turrets, once the shield are down on that part, the weaponry would sheer through it's hull like a knife trough hot butter.
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That's pretty much exactly what happened in False Colors - the surprise attack managed to knock out the fore shield and cripple the ships "front" section... but because Kilrathi design is so resilient, the dreadnought was able to fight on.
 
Colonel Jim said:
Face it a ship of 22 km in lenght is bound to have limits. Lets say the Vesuvius would hit a part head on with its heavy turrets, once the shield are down on that part, the weaponry would sheer through it's hull like a knife trough hot butter..
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In WC3, we see a Tallahassee take on a Fralthi II with its 3 AMG's. From what I can tell, it takes over 2 minutes in a slugging match (if you shoot down the capmiss), for the Confed Cruiser to kill it's Kilrathi counterpart. The Fralthi has about 1/3 of the core strength of the dreadnaught, I don't think "hot knife through hot butter" is a very good analogy in the case of a heavy capship. You can also consider that each Vesuvi do a head on pass of each other in WC4 without doing a whole hell of alot of damage, it takes 3 missions worth of slugging [10-15 minutes?] for the battle to finally have a victor - and even then its because the St. Helens isn't even completely constructed. If it takes that long for a Vesuvius to kill another Vesuvius, hows it gonna fair in a slugging match against something that can take over 10 times the punishment (BTW, as for stats, the Vesuvius doesn't even hold a candle to the Kilrathi Corvette in the core strength department).
Colonel Jim said:
A tank is only armored on the outside, once a armor piercing shell goes through it's chances are slim. Look at the mass of both ships. And compare them to there sizes/volumes. Talk about tough.
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We're not talking about a 1 or 2 shot kill weapon here (armor piercing shell). Were talking about shooting the equivalent of small and large caliber bullets at a Pinto and a tank (lasers and AMG's). If you want to bring torpedoes into the mix, were talking about something that can take 4 torpedoes without flinching (8000 cm of penetration each) and one that can take 2 and buys the farm (which actually makes the Vesuvius armor/core strength match up nicely with torpedo yield).

C-ya
 
Even just thinking about how many guns each ship can possibly bring to bear on the other at any given time should be able to tell you who the winner would be. The dreadnaught with it's vast size and turret displacement should one would think almost always have more guns firing at the Ves then the Ves probably carries total.
 
I'd post something a little mocking, but it's no fun when the challenge is all gone. :(

Comparing the Hvar'kann to the Vesuvius is like comparing a Raptor to an Exeter, scale-wise. Armor-wise, it's like trying to take on the Vesuvius with a corvette.
 
y'know, this discussion would be over so much faster if the WC3 devs hadnt turned the Hvar'Kann from the Gh0d ship it is supposed to be into the "killable so the player doesnt feel totally humiliated" mockery it is in the game. :s
 
It's just an all around turn your day into a very bad one kind of ship....with a lot of turrets to point right at you.

On a side note...I wonder where the kats built the dreadnaughts...kilrah or hari or somewhere else? must have been some place with a very large facility...
 
Psych said:
No. (And if you reverse my answer you get 'on', which means the 18-year old Colonel can sit 'on' my fist).
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I've been thinking of this sentence. For a 24 year old Aerospace Enginier, It's a quite immature reply.

Here 18 years is considerd adulthood. I don't know what 24 means in your country, but let's try to keep up the level in this forum. Lets stay mature and nice to each other. ok?
 
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