Wing Commander III

Bandit LOAF said:
The existence of a nuclear bomb capable of wiping out entire cities is not a certain intent to wipe out all cities with nuclear bombs.
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One thing is to say "we have nukes". Another is to say "we have the nukes and we are going to use it". Your statement covers the former, but not the later. Tolwyn did say that they "had a tool to do the job" and that "we shall use it". He repeatedly mentions his objectives included mankind in general and confed in particular.
 
LeHah said:
Not nessessarily. For all we know, it could've been a predominantly a colony for Prespeterian Monks or Italians or Irish or any other demographic. I don't think we could answer the question I posed since we don't have concrete evidence of the colony's population standings, but all the same...
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The evidence that the planet had an adequate population for a test comes from the fact that the planet was used for a test, and that it was considered a success. So, for the intent of figuring out how the weapon would work, the planet was OK. There's no reason to think otherwise.

LeHah said:
I think the statistics would depend on how the weapon was programmed. After all, it could be made to target any number of genetic traits.
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And they were satisfied with the 9 out of 10 result, which implies that's what they were expecting.
 
Edfilho said:
No one said WC4 is bad. it's just that they made Tolwyn a madman, and he was a great character.
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I like his portrayal in the WC4 novelization... he's still the "crazy space nazi", as LOAF likes to say, but he has a reason. I think part of the character is that he has sent SO MANY off to their deaths in the cause of humanities survival that the individual lives don't start to mean so much as humanity's survival. What if he was actually right about the only way for humanity to survive? Then you get into a broader question - survival of the species, or survival of our way of life?

An interesting question, probably best left to another board.
 
Remember that old game called Wing Commander 2 were Tolwyn actually was a nice guy, Fruitcake?
 
Why does everyone seem to imply that Tolwyn changed to a Space-Nazi in WC4? He was one all along.
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No, he wasn't. Tolwyn was introduced as a character that everyone *except Blair* liked. He was a good commander to whom the Concordia crew was fiercly loyal -- and he didn't like Blair specifically because he believed Blair was a traitor and a threat to his ship.

This was a little too subtle for Wing Commander III, so in that game he became a generic Star Trek jerk of an admiral whom no one liked. Somehow "he doesn't like Blair" translated to "he doesn't like *anyone*" in those writers minds and he was harassing Rachel about and complaining about the Victory. A far, far cry from Sparks warning Blair that everyone onboard loves the Admiral.

And then when writing Wing Commander IV they forgot the meaning of the world subtle and he was now literally space Hitler. Don't like the main character? YOU MUST BE EVIL!

One thing is to say "we have nukes". Another is to say "we have the nukes and we are going to use it". Your statement covers the former, but not the later. Tolwyn did say that they "had a tool to do the job" and that "we shall use it". He repeatedly mentions his objectives included mankind in general and confed in particular.
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... and the part you cut out where I mentioned the specific orders pretty darn well covered 'the latter'.
 
Tolwyn's character was knocked down a few notches to turn an interesting, dimensional character into a Republic serial villian. All he needs is the Snidley Whiplash mustache and he'd be all set.
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and...
Remember that old game called Wing Commander 2 were Tolwyn actually was a nice guy, Fruitcake?
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Actually in WC2 Tolwyn HAS a mustache. Maybe he's always been a space Hitler?
 
I think the development of Hitler and Tolwyn have great differences. According to historical sources, Hitler failed at the secondary school, was rejected by the art academy, never attained an officer's rank as a soldier because he was considered to be hysterical and had no previous political experience whatsoever before he entered the national-socialistic fraction. Tolwyn however was given the rank of Admiral before he got into the "space Hitler" thing and his heroics and brilliant strategies were renowned among the confederation. Pity to turn him into such a madman...
 
Loaf, Time and again Tolwyn talks about how "The Strong Shall Survive", how we have to weed out the weak and so on. Seether's orders are not exclusive. Sure, that particular time he was told to seed 5 planets, but tolwyn's discourse throughout the game implies heavily that he indeed intends to wipe the 90% of mankind that doesn't live up (literally) to his expectations.

We may argue the semantics of each sentence in each source forever, and that would be pretty annoying. But if the game is as crappy and shallow as you insist it to be, then the major signs are pretty cleat in their meaning: Tolwyn was willing to kill most of the population in order to fullfill his dream of a master race.

Even that (amazing) WC4.12923818128 worked under that assumption... (i know it is no great canon source, I'm just showing how most people understand WC4).

The funny thing is that Delance's point in this thread is not whether Tolwyn is Space Hitler or not, or whether he wanted to kill everyone or not. His point was that several years ago you people said that it was stupid to call Tolwyn Space Hitler because he wasn't that.

And I sincerely find it very funny how you seem to almost hate most WC games. Everytime someone says "Oh, WC1 was great fun, with a grat story!" you come up and say "It was just some talking heads. no reason to be excited", and so on. You have some reason to dislike almost all games... Why do you invest so much time and effort in this universe you seem to hold almost in contempt??
 
Tolwyn-'the virus will be borne on thw winds of war throughout the human hegemony, sowing change into worlds on both sides of the conflict' PoF pg307

Tolwyn-'Once were at war seed the FIRST five CONFED worlds on the target list with the canisters' Pof pg309

It seems pretty obvious that the GENSelect device was supposed to be used on a very wide scale.
 
Paddybhoy said:
It seems pretty obvious that the GENSelect device was supposed to be used on a very wide scale.
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Wide can mean any number of things though. Do you mean worldwide, system-wide or galactic-wide?
 
Bandit LOAF said:
... and the part you cut out where I mentioned the specific orders pretty darn well covered 'the latter'.
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No it doesn't. Military orders are specific. On WC1, Blair has specific orders to patrol a system, and then specific orders to escort a transport. Orders to attack a specific system doesn't mean no other systems will ever be attacked, certainly not since there are other statements claiming they would.

Not only that, but we are discussing the WCIV game, where Tolwyn made it clear he intends to use the weapons on everyone.

Its funny how you complain about supposedly far-fetched interpretations, but have no problems using them to interpret the game in a manner completely opposite to what’s explicit stated on it.

Tolwyn did claim that a darwinistic principle as was the primary universal law. He also created bio-weapons to pursue this, said he wanted to make mankind stronger with them, said the weapons worked and that he was going to use them. "We have a tool to do the job" and "we shall use it" are just examples of this.

LeHah said:
Wide can mean any number of things though. Do you mean worldwide, system-wide or galactic-wide?
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The entire point of the game is that Tolwyn considered mankind weak and wanted to change it radically with the use of bio-weapons.
 
Delance said:
The entire point of the game is that Tolwyn considered mankind weak and wanted to change it radically with the use of bio-weapons.
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I thought it was that they had Malcolm McDowell and had to use him because he's a good villian actor.
 
LeHah, you seem so cynical when you say that.
Plus, isn't this the third time we've made this circle in this horrible thread?

-Rance-
 
This thread isn't horrible, it's a standoff between people who think WC IV had a good story (including me), and people who think it had a very bad story which destroyed the character Tolwyn.
 
Fruitcake said:
This thread isn't horrible, it's a standoff between people who think WC IV had a good story (including me), and people who think it had a very bad story which destroyed the character Tolwyn.
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Yes - much like many other CZ threads, it is easy to differentiate the stupid from the intelligent.
 
The funny thing is that Delance's point in this thread is not whether Tolwyn is Space Hitler or not, or whether he wanted to kill everyone or not. His point was that several years ago you people said that it was stupid to call Tolwyn Space Hitler because he wasn't that.
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"You people"? We pressed him on this and it turned out he was talking about an IRC conversation he had with someone who isn't even involved in this discussion. Good going, Brazilians.

And I sincerely find it very funny how you seem to almost hate most WC games. Everytime someone says "Oh, WC1 was great fun, with a grat story!" you come up and say "It was just some talking heads. no reason to be excited", and so on. You have some reason to dislike almost all games... Why do you invest so much time and effort in this universe you seem to hold almost in contempt??
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You sincerely find that very funny? I guess we're both amused, as I find self righteous idiocy funny. I love Wing Commander, but I certainly do not think Wing Commander is perfect -- and I certainly certainly certainly do not think it's *intelligent*. Attaching these kinds of beliefs to the games is insulting rather than complementary to the source... Wing Commander is a fun, pulp science fiction story -- it's not a grand allusion.

No it doesn't. Military orders are specific. On WC1, Blair has specific orders to patrol a system, and then specific orders to escort a transport. Orders to attack a specific system doesn't mean no other systems will ever be attacked, certainly not since there are other statements claiming they would.
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... but that's *not* what I'm trying to prove and you know it. You're smarter than that and it isn't cute. It's what *you're* trying to prove - that the fact that he has orders to attack five planets means he going to attack *every* planet. Blair being ordered to patrol a star system or escort a transport doesn't mean he's going to patrol every star system and escort every transport.

Not only that, but we are discussing the WCIV game, where Tolwyn made it clear he intends to use the weapons on everyone.
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Well, that's my damned point - *does he*?

"We have tested it, and we shall use it!" is the line you like to quote -- but how does that mean he's going to use the weapon everywhere? I bet Truman said something similar about the atomic bomb - but it didn't mean that he was going to nuke every city in the world. I have this wrench, and I'm going to use it! Am I fixing every tractor in the world?

This is the part of the thread where we try to think instead of attaching pseudointellectual crap where it doesn't belong.

Its funny how you complain about supposedly far-fetched interpretations, but have no problems using them to interpret the game in a manner completely opposite to what’s explicit stated on it.
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Oh, I'm so very sorry that I cited a source. How unoriginal of me, I should have just gone on making up wild assumptions based on vauge quotes instead of bringing *facts* into the discussion.
 
I think the only person that could really explain how he chose to have something a certain way in the WC universe is Chris Roberts. Now given that LOAF is so informed and well schooled in WC universe I think that's as close as we get to the horses mouth. However I do disagree with the statement it's just a fun game and therefore does not have any meaning deeper than that. I think you can have any meaning you want, that you can take away something more and therefore make you appriciate the piece of work more. However, just because that's what you see in it, does not mean that that's what the author intended.

-Rance-
 
LOAF, I don't think that SO MUCH money would have gone into hiring professional actors if they didn't intend to convey deep relationships and characterizations. Just a thought... I have to agree with Ed... If any one of us would have pointed out something wrong with the WC Movie in this thread, you would have been all over us from the get-go, re-interpreting what was said to fit in past cannon, etc etc... Now people want to discuss the subject of Tolwyn, and you do nothing but complain about the character from start to finish! Now that there is a fairly logical characterization for Tolwyn, (that doesn't concur with the cogs that are ticking in that WC-loaded brain of yours), you're going down in a blaze of sour grapes!

What makes this thread even more frustrating is that the basis isn't something FACTUAL. Can anybody REALLY KNOW what happens in Tolwyn's mind the whole time? Did the author even think of it? Maybe, maybe not... But it's an abstract idea and we're trying to apply abstract thinking, making inferrences based on past literary usage and past history, trying to piece together something that's never REALLY told to us point blank.

LOAF... go watch the WC Movie... if your past words are any indication, it does seem to be the only part of WC that you love.

And please don't take this as a personal afront - I'm just "calling it as I see it". Of course I'm sure that you disagree with just about everything that I've put into this post... and I'm sure that a lot of other people do, too... but hey... that's what it seems like to myself and some others.
 
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