Wing Commander III

Hello Freaks ;-)

I can´t play the game on XP, why ? In the Free Dosbox Programm, come an error Vcuip and ems error ... hhmmmm

sorry for my bad english iám german ...

gives an patch for wc3 to play it on XP ?

Sind hier deutsche ? :D
 
vindicator said:
Hmm, what makes you think that wasn't the thought I was trying to provoke, just for the sake of it?
Becuase when people qualify their arguments with phrases like "I'm not saying that we are all evil, I'm just saying the range isn't as wide as you would like to believe it is", you can be fairly certain that they are not trying to make Tolwyn/whoever seem less evil than he was, but rather trying to persuade everybody else that they are more evil than they are.

If anyone can prove that he had a beef with his own people and wanted to thin them out, please provide that proof now.
It's been provided (and, strangely enough, ignored without even a single remark from the people involved in the actual debate) already, right in this thread. I'll quote it, but won't comment on it, because I don't want to get involved any deeper in this thread:

Paddybhoy said:
'He had not realised until it was too late that the entire race need not be brought up to genetic standard' Wing Commander, Price of Freedom, pg 344
 
I qualified my statement to get an Affirmation. I am tired of looking at WCIV and having to justify why tolwyn is suddenly evil, my effort in pointing out that the line isn't as far away as people think, was to show that to establish some kind of evil in Tolwyn you need a foundation that makes it believeable. All I've heard is "Well this is why it is." Pure opinion as to why he is evil. He is never explained in the way that allows you to really identify what makes him tick. On the bio-weapon standpoint, the beef with his own people is just thrown in there as well, just to make his evil more complete. If you look at anything predating WCIV, nothing really alludes to him hating humanity. If somone digs up a quote to prove me wrong other than the WCIV stuff, I will concede my point.

-Rance-
 
vindicator said:
If you look at anything predating WCIV, nothing really alludes to him hating humanity.

Tolwyn doesn't hate humanity in WC4. Rather he feels that somehow he is protecting humanity by making it stronger. Like that quote from TPOF novelization, we can see that his descent into madness had clouded his Judgement. Sphynx, although he was an ass about it, had a few valid reasonings on Tolwyn and how possibly the end of the war might have affected Tolwyn this way.

Blair and Tolwyn both are Trying to protect humanity (as in sc_0730a where Blair and Eisen talk about uniting humanity being the ultimate duty). Tolwyn, though, isnt thinking straight and has come to believe that humaity needs to be made physicaly stronger, Where Blair and pretty much most of the rest of mankind agreed that Unity among all men (and women) Would be the ultimate way to stregnthen confed against any foe that may press.

Engendering conflict amongst manking could mean mankind might exterminate itself... as was/is the fear that people have of nuclear weapons . They even came up with a term for it during the cold war: MAD or Mutualy Assured Destruction.

Oh, I'm not familiar with most of the novels, but if you scan down, I believe LOAF and maybe a few others, have ponted out that some of the novels written post WC4 attempt to explain this.
 
vindicator said:
If you look at anything predating WCIV, nothing really alludes to him hating humanity.

Tolwyn consider the people he's killing on WCIV to be "enemies" of "humanity".
 
No he doesn't, he feels that the process of internal conflict will make humanity stronger, example

'The Border Worlds. ingenious and blessed with a mongrel frontier spirit.......We owe them a debt od gratitude. You must not forget that they are serving our species by dying, just as surely as you serve by living' pg 307, PoF

Whilst it can be debated that Tolwyn disliked (or even hated) the Border Worlds on the basis of their independant spirit and and lack of central control, he never hated them as a GENETIC detriment to the race.(this is kinda a contradiction, I know but you know what I'm getting at)
 
A Link and a quote

http://www.townhall.com/bookclub/weikart.html

One cannot comprehend Hitler's immense popularity in Germany without understanding the ethical dimension to his worldview and his political policies...Hitler embraced an evolutionary ethic that made Darwinian fitness and health...and the Darwinian struggle for existence...the only criteria for moral standards.

Darwinists insisted that morality was not fixed, but historically changing, and though many emphasized the relativism of morality, one factor remained constant: the evolutionary process itself. Thus many writers on evolutionary ethics exalted evolutionary progress—and everything that contributed to it—to the status of highest moral good. Health and sickness became criteria for making moral judgments, since they influence evolutionary progress.

I hope my fellow CZrs find those quite illustrative about the 'evolutionary ethics' present on the Black Lance. Compare Tolwyn's speech with this interview, the similarities are not subtle at all. The Nazi angle on WCIV was an effective reference to explain how this is all very bad. This text was chosen because the game made this reference, but it could be done without it.

This is the motivation that makes Tolwyn not perceive Telamon as a moral wrong. Eliminating the weak is moral goal, what of course is completely against the traditional ethics of helping the weak. Blair represents this ethic, even if he’s not entirely aware of what he’s up against until the end. Protecting weak people, in Tolwyn’s view, is a moral wrong like treason.

Objectively speaking, this kind of bad philosophy was never successful. Unfortunate it’s common to find this kind of thing misguidedly associated with evolution. And while I’ll agree that it doesn’t make sense, that doesn’t prevent people from embracing it.

LOAF: Not trying to revive and old debate, just giving an example. Also, this really doesn’t mean he wouldn’t try a gradual approach instead of immediate use of bio-weapons all over. The specifics about Tolwyn’s plan don’t change the ideas behind it.

EDIT: Since this is a controversial issue, it should be important to note this comments are made in the context of the game. So an ‘evolutionary ethic’ in which that helping the weak is makes the species stronger might be conceptually valid, but was not used. Furthermore, of course there were other factors involved, like the Kilrathi war, and real or perceived problems like economic stagnation, social degradation, and alien threats. While ideology was not the only factor, it takes a predominant role in the later parts.
 
chriskathi said:
Hello Freaks ;-)

I can´t play the game on XP, why ? In the Free Dosbox Programm, come an error Vcuip and ems error ... hhmmmm

sorry for my bad english iám german ...

gives an patch for wc3 to play it on XP ?

Sind hier deutsche ? :D

:confused: :confused: :confused:
 
You should post that to the Tech Support forum instead of to an unrelated thread about symbolism in Wing Commander IV. The people there will be able to help you.
 
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