Wing Commander III

I can't believe there was actually a dumber person than me on the internet.

In considering both the WCIII and WCIV titles I always felt that while they were good, they could stand on their own. You really didn't have the cool connectivity of WC1 and WC2. I'm not saying that I don't like it, but the script just seemed not to have the flavor of the first two where you have several established friendships. Maniac becomes your annoying lackey and really everyone else except Paladin and angel(at the beggining) are gone. Hobbes of course is there. But I felt a different attachment to these titles specifically because the stories are stand alone and not really attached to the previous games except by title.

Did anyone else feel this way?

By the way, I was thinking, what is it that prompted the formation of the first space navy? Was there an enemy which necessitated(sp) such a creation?

-Rance-
 
I do agree. But I also feel that the lack of cohesion could also be created by the fact that in WCI and II you were just another pilot on the roster. In WCIII and IV, you are the Wing C.O.

A commanding officer by nature is going to have different relationships with fellow pilots.

WC III did a great job of making Blair the leader of the team, while the previous titles made Blair an integral 'part' of the team.
 
I'm *not* saying Wing Commander III and IV are *bad* -- I'm saying we should take them for what they are... fun, amazingly entertaining games or part of a larger universe that still doesn't really have a message (but can be debated on its own merits).
 
Wing Commander is a fun, not-so-serious sci-fi romp. That doesn't make it bad - thats just its genre. Most sci-fi is pulpy, easy access stuff and theres no shame in that. Do you think anyone would buy Wing Commander if it was a down-trodden game that had heavy talks on the quanitfying make-up of stars, major sweeping political sequences relying on a gamer's understanding of a democratic political system and a climax involving two people trading blows while spewing ideological viewpoints on Quakers? Of course not - that would be too heavy and too silly for a video game.
 
Why should he when theres so many people who worship the dogmatist views of "internet sillyness"?
 
Oh well, it is not really us vc them. Maybe it WAS, 8 years ago, but it is not so nowadays... Loaf, maybe you're reading too much in my posts, I don't think we (me and delance) are poor newbies. BTW, I'm no Delance fanboy either, we're friends, sure, but 90% of the time we talk in MSN we are actually argueing about determinism, dualism, libertarianism and stuff like that. I also don't agree much with this debate "tactics", but for some strange reason, we seem to agree on most WC issues :)

I don't "hate" the CIC people, LOAF, you should note that down. It is just that being WC-jaded sometimes is boring. Maybe if you display some enthusiasm... :)

Anyway, I see that most quotes point that Tolwyn did intend to employ the genselect on a large scale... Even if it wasn't in ALL planets, it was surelly in more than five. Sure, it would be stupid and insane to kill 90% of mankind. but Tolwyn was suposedly insane in WC4. Yep, maybe it was a dumb move that screwed a good character. But hey, if WC is so simple and shallow, perhaps Tolwyn wasn't so cool and great to begin with.
 
Do you think anyone would buy Wing Commander if it was a down-trodden game that had heavy talks on the quanitfying make-up of stars, major sweeping political sequences relying on a gamer's understanding of a democratic political system and a climax involving two people trading blows while spewing ideological viewpoints on Quakers?
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Nah, not Quakers. But Qualia now, that would draw some people in this thread to buy.:)
 
Do I even dare enter this thread with a commentary on how Tolwyn "going crazy" and treating humans as objectified pawns in WCIV would be considered highly realistic by psychological professionals who deal with wartime PTSD and military individuals and families in general (a point which was so casually dismissed by some, when in fact it is a highly defensible point)?

Should I comment on how I've treated several families in which something rather similar has occurred to the person returning from war (to the extent which the professional ethic of confidentiality will allow)?

Should I comment on how post-war hypervigilance and objectification of other people is a very common symptom in veterans, especially in commanding officers who have had to find some way to cope with the fact that they were sending their own people to their deaths on a daily basis? Should I comment on how commonly this is seen in both research and clinical settings for veterans and their families?

Do I dare compare fiction with psychological reality to show how the shift in the Tolwyn character to a "madman" is not a huge logical leap at all? Do I dare say that WC IV may in fact show something deep by illustrating that one of the dangers of winning a war is that many people who fight in it have a very difficult time shifting their mentality back to a more humane and relational paradigm? Do I dare suggest that there may be some introspective value in all of this, beyond mere "pulp fiction" entertainment? Do I dare begin to discuss the psychological value and significance of even the most shallow fiction and play?

Do I dare-- or for that matter care to-- spend the time to actually flesh out these points? Do I have that kind of time to spare, and will people actually read it with an open mind?

Or, should I not post in this thread any more and hope rather over-opitimisitically that this thread can meet a respectable conclusion where people are capable of respecting what the others find in their fiction?

I think we are capable of that. The question is: are we going to choose to do that?

Decisions, decisions...
 
Wow, you managed to be even more egotistical than *me* in a thread that involves arguing with Delance. That's pretty darned impressive.
 
LeHah said:
Do you think anyone would buy Wing Commander if it was a down-trodden game that had heavy talks on the quanitfying make-up of stars, major sweeping political sequences relying on a gamer's understanding of a democratic political system and a climax involving two people trading blows while spewing ideological viewpoints on Quakers?
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How much would it cost?
 
Bandit LOAF said:
My point, which I *knoW* you are not too stupid to understand, is that "we shall use it" is an entirely non-specific statement. Claiming that he will use the bioweapons is not inherently claiming that he will use them *everywhere* or *immediately*.

I'm just trying to say that maybe there's something more here than we understand - a more elaborate plan than the "suddenly kill everyone, universe gets better" scenario that we've all repeated... so I'm trying to get a discussion going as to whether or not that it an automatic. Do we ever learn specifically that what we've always assumed is Tolwyn's plan is true (I don't know - my Wing Commander IV materials are packed)?

Like it or not, there is no inherent statement of magnitude in "we shall use it"; rather, there is no way to use the weapon *at all* without making such a claim. We *knnow* he's going to use it, I quoted the orders; what we want to know now is how and to what extent.
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Well, I understand it, and I also know you are not too stupid to understand my point, too. :)

Of course I’m willing to debate the extent of use of the bio-weapons that was being planed by the Black Lance. Perhaps we could do that on a different style than the classic knife-fight. Now, I've found a neat page with the entire speech, so let's take a look at it. Following each number is a commentary of mine to what I think about it. It’s just an opinion, of course.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/Wedge009/WC4/Axius.html

Black Lance star base, Axius system.
Seether: …we came from a life of hiding, many of us sought after some… murdered at the hands of savages. But one forward-thinking man – a genius, our benefactor, an equal – found us, nurtured us, and has given us the tools to fulfil our birthright as the natural rulers of the universe! *1 Our operations in the Telamon system were a rousing success. *2 I congratulate all who were involved. And, before we close, I give you our esteemed leader…

Tolwyn: Thank you. I am here, my fellow soldiers, to commend you on your valiant efforts. You – the Black Lance – will be Humanity’s first line of defence. *3 Now, various enemies of the Confederation *4 have already met with you: they know very well what you are capable of. Soon now, I can reveal your existence to all the Confederation, and you will get the praise which you so richly deserve.

Black Lance: YYYAAAHHH

Tolwyn: I also wish to extol the efforts of your great commander – a fine example of what the Genetic Enhancement program promises for the future.

Black Lance: AAARRRGGGHHH

Tolwyn: “The strong shall survive”: the primary universal law. The species that is weak, faces extinction. *5 You know, not so very long ago our species faced extinction. Now the truth is – our victory over the Kilrathi was not a clear verdict of our superiority. *6 It was a fluke, a temporary purchase of time. We will, someday, face an enemy far worse than the Kilrathi, and it is our duty to prepare: to remain strong and to remain vigilant.

Black Lance: YEEEEHHH

Tolwyn: Even if that means, er… discarding certain elements. Or separating the wheat from the chaff. <chuckles> *7 Now, in the Gen-Select device, we have a tool to do the job. We have tested it, and we shall use it! *8

Black Lance: AAAHHH

Tolwyn: As you all know, the Border Worlds are an enemy birthing in our midst. They threaten our unity, our strength, our… Humanity. We all have a duty. My own is now with the Great Assembly, where I shall ratify the foundation that we have lain. When the moment comes, my fellow soldiers, you must fight, and fight hard. Thank you. *9

Black Lance: YEAAAAHH
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Notes:

1) Seether considers “them”, presumably the result of the G.E. program, as the natural rulers of the universe, unlike the weak mankind. That’s in line with the paradigm of someone who is genetically ‘superior’.

2) The bio-weapon attack on Telamon had the intended result.

3) Mankind and Confederation are basically interchangeable terms.

4) Black Lance will protect Humanity by striking the enemies of Confed. The enemies of Confed are the enemies of mankind, even if they are human, as is the case of the Border Worlds or opposing Confed forces.

5) Now he lays the darwinistic principle as the universal law. Also, Confed not only represents mankind, but also a species. It’s not merely a political body.

6) Under this worldview Confed was not stronger then the Kilrathi, and would probably not have a good chance against a far worse enemy.

7) Nasty reminder that the victims of this plan are not considered worthy. Not only the end justify the means, but it’s almost as if the ‘impure’ are not even humans, or are “enemies” of mankind. This group is the target of the Gen-Select device.

8) The job is to eliminate the target, the bio-weapons are the tool to be used.

9) Now here’s the tricky part. Fighting the Border Worlds would not require hard-figthing, bio-weapons or stealth fighters. Fighting a much weaker opponent would not make Confed stronger, or have significant lasting effects.

What we get here is that Tolwyn wants to make Confed stronger in other to defeat an opponent worst than it has ever faced before. Simply nuking the BW would hardly accomplish that goal, by his own terms. It’s not merely destroying an enemy, but how this changes mankind.

The presumption is that Tolwyn would use the Gen-Select device to eliminate the “weak” within Confed and, according to the ideology, make Confed “stronger”. That sometime during the wars he would use the stealth fighters to deploy canisters all around Confed. The large amounts of those weapons stockpiled on Axius corroborate this view.

But can elaborate other possibilities. Maybe he could be aiming at a long-term plan, and would use the gen-select slowly as to not cause more damage than Confed could sustain, gradually putting his own people on positions of power. This kind of subtle grasp of power can prevent the kind of drastic response that would meet a more violent attempt.

Whatever it was, we know it would certainly involve constant conflict, a cultural shift and genetic purifications. Mankind would be radically altered on a genetic and social level in accordance with Tolwyn’s ideological objectives.
 
Refresh me folks on what is the issue that we are aruging about?? I think that I have lost track on the argument and counter arguments that has been occurring
 
The presumption is that Tolwyn would use the Gen-Select device to eliminate the “weak” within Confed and, according to the ideology, make Confed “stronger”. That sometime during the wars he would use the stealth fighters to deploy canisters all around Confed. The large amounts of those weapons stockpiled on Axius corroborate this view.

But can elaborate other possibilities. Maybe he could be aiming at a long-term plan, and would use the gen-select slowly as to not cause more damage than Confed could sustain, gradually putting his own people on positions of power. This kind of subtle grasp of power can prevent the kind of drastic response that would meet a more violent attempt.

Whatever it was, we know it would certainly involve constant conflict, a cultural shift and genetic purifications. Mankind would be radically altered on a genetic and social level in accordance with Tolwyn’s ideological objectives.
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Well, that's exactly my point - we don't know what his specific, immediate plan is. The claim for years has been that the Project was going to immediately wipe out 90% of the population of the galaxy... which just on its face doesn't seem to make sense. (However moustache-twirlingly evil it sounds).

I'm not being dense, I understand that the goal is ultimately to "improve" the gene pool -- I just think that there's room to suggest that the manner in which Tolwyn intends to do this is (on a continuity scale) is a little more subtle than suddenly bludgeoning the universe with the new weapon and hoping it recovers. (Although the immediate goal is apparently to blame the Border Worlds for the bioweapon attacks in the first place, per Seether's orders)
 
Tolwyn's plan was to invoke civil wars to make humanity stronger, like the Kilrathi have done for thousands of years. The Gen-select weapon was merely a tool which could be used in the chaos of these conflicts.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Wow, you managed to be even more egotistical than *me* in a thread that involves arguing with Delance. That's pretty darned impressive.
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Erm, that was for me or for sphynx?

BTW,

Admiral Tolwyn said:
Even if that means, er… discarding certain elements. Or separating the wheat from the chaff. <chuckles> Now, in the Gen-Select device, we have a tool to do the job. We have tested it, and we shall use it!
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This pretty much settles the issue that Tolwyn was going to employ the Genselect on a large scale. GRanted, how large the scale is can be debated. But it was certainly and undoubtedly more than some terror weapon to blame the UBW.

As far as I can tell, the objective of the war against the UBW was to put that huge armada, with a fair share of GE people in it, in the hands of Tolwyn. He would have a harder time spreading the Genselect in a time of peace.

LOAF, I wholeheartedly agree that it is crazy and even stupid to "kill 90% of humankind". But to be sincere, when someone considers eugenics as an acceptable tool to "enhance" humanity, well, this someone is already far and gone form our sense of logic and moral.

I do agree that maybe he wasn't going walmart with the GS. But this possibility, however unlikely, can't be discarded. Maybe it is a testament to the "pulpyness" and "undeepness" of WC that the bad, bad guy will actually plan killing most of the people.
 
Don't double post.

Or post ever again.

Erm, that was for me or for sphynx?
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The former Sphynx.

This pretty much settles the issue that Tolwyn was going to employ the Genselect on a large scale. GRanted, how large the scale is can be debated. But it was certainly and undoubtedly more than some terror weapon to blame the UBW.
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Except that that's that's *not the issue*. We're trying to figure out what his immediate plans were -- no one is claiming he wasn't trying to do specifically what he claimed in his speech; the issue is whether or not he was some kind of madman with a plan that made no sense (but was somehow supported by a huge organization) or whether or not it was something more nuanced that would have progressed over time.
 
So Loaf thinks that Wing Commander 4 isn't a sophisticated story and that it doesn't deserve the level of analysis that some are giving it (which to be fair is a reasonable assessment), but he still thinks its stupid that the Black Lance would kill 90% of the population? uhm that doesn't really make sense!
 
Don't sass your elders boy, or they'll beat you with the switch!
 
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