Wing Commander III

I'm just saying that if he thinks the story is poor and the Black Lance are nothing more than card boards space Nazi clique cutouts why is he so worked up about the idea that they would be crazy enough to wipe out 90% of the population, especially since he thinks that its an obvious case of 'Oh look at them they are the bad guys'!
 
Paddybhoy said:
So Loaf thinks that Wing Commander 4 isn't a sophisticated story and that it doesn't deserve the level of analysis that some are giving it (which to be fair is a reasonable assessment), but he still thinks its stupid that the Black Lance would kill 90% of the population? uhm that doesn't really make sense!
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Oh, no, I think *TWO DIFFERENT THINGS*!

I'm pretty sure I've already explained exactly what I was talking about in terms of Wing Commander IV not being very sophiticated -- we were talking about the simplicity of the Nazi imagery.

I'm also pretty sure "how did Tolwyn plan to attack the Border Worlds" isn't a "level of analysis" akin to "I think Wing Commander IV represents collectivism!". It's just a pretty general question you can ask.

I'm also fairly sure I explained the difference between critiquing how Wing Commander IV worked as a stand alone movie/production and how the Wing Commander universe in general comes together. The former is a purely critical analysis of a single set of data; the latter involves what we usually do here - bringing together novels and cartoons and manual references and whatnot to form a whole that we can argue about. They are not related, save that they both involve Wing Commander. It's "the Wing Commander movie was a bad movie" (true) versus "the Wing Commander movie added nothing to the Wing Commander universe" (false).
 
Uhm it's spelled *sophisticated* (in your face LOAF :D )

Anyways I must take off my wank hat and get ready for work, I'll check in on this debate later.
 
Now, now, annoying men like you and I is pretty darned easy. He's just kidding around about the spelling -- and he raised a legitimate point (which I certainly hope I answered).
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Except that that's that's *not the issue*. We're trying to figure out what his immediate plans were -- no one is claiming he wasn't trying to do specifically what he claimed in his speech; the issue is whether or not he was some kind of madman with a plan that made no sense (but was somehow supported by a huge organization) or whether or not it was something more nuanced that would have progressed over time.
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Ok, but I did address the issue... in the part of my post that followed the one you quoted:

"LOAF, I wholeheartedly agree that it is crazy and even stupid to "kill 90% of humankind". But to be sincere, when someone considers eugenics as an acceptable tool to "enhance" humanity, well, this someone is already far and gone form our sense of logic and moral.

I do agree that maybe he wasn't going walmart with the GS. But this possibility, however unlikely, can't be discarded. Maybe it is a testament to the "pulpyness" and "undeepness" of WC that the bad, bad guy will actually plan killing most of the people."

Anyways, unless someone pulls a ouija board and asks tolwyn how far did he intend to go with the genselect, well, we can speculate all year long and still reach no definite conclusion. Sure, doing it all the wya would be pretty lame, insane, evil, crappy. But as you pointed yourself, WC4 Tolwyn is a mad evil space hitler who is followed by a lot of ferociously loyal GE guys who believe they are trully superior... They may be all just insane enough to make a crazy plan like that up...

Another approach: The Origin people who wrote the final WC4 script (and supposedly screwd the Tolwyn character) invented such a lame plot to hammer the point that Tolwyn is Space Hitler TO TEH MAXXX0r.
 
Edfilho said:
But to be sincere, when someone considers eugenics as an acceptable tool to "enhance" humanity, well, this someone is already far and gone form our sense of logic and moral.
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I disagree, to say it's so far out of the moral range is not to consider your own humanity. Have you ever said to yourself, "These are my parameters for selecting a certain type of people to be friends with, and had certain requirements that had to be met Physically or mentaly? I'm not saying that we are all evil, I'm just saying the range isn't as wide as you would like to believe it is. What does this argument prove? LOAF is not even saying that he isn't going to use the Gen-Select-Bio-Weapon, He's saying that there is no official statement making either case and that either argument is pure opinion and not WCU fact. Atleast that's what I got from it, I could be completely wrong but that wouldn't be the first time.

-Rance-
 
vindicator said:
I disagree, to say it's so far out of the moral range is not to consider your own humanity. Have you ever said to yourself, "These are my parameters for selecting a certain type of people to be friends with, and had certain requirements that had to be met Physically or mentaly?
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Wow, even in the context of this thread, that's an incredibly stupid comparison to make. There's a very, very significant difference between not wanting to talk to someone and not wanting someone to live. The former simply means exercising your freedom, while the latter means abusing someone else's freedom.
 
Quarto said:
Wow, even in the context of this thread, that's an incredibly stupid comparison to make. There's a very, very significant difference between not wanting to talk to someone and not wanting someone to live. The former simply means exercising your freedom, while the latter means abusing someone else's freedom.
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I'm not arguing legal rights or context, I simply said the leap isn't as far as people like to think it is because it makes them more comfortable.

-Rance-
 
Dahan said:
Refresh me folks on what is the issue that we are aruging about?? I think that I have lost track on the argument and counter arguments that has been occurring
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This thread is a discussion of how awesome Wing Commander III is, as well as various comments about Hitler, Darwinistic principles, and Quakers to name a few.. you know, just your standard WC thread.
 
Recently been playing Wing Commander III again, and realized that maybe it's just really the greatest game ever. Defending humanity at the end of an epic everlasting conflict and losing hope with losing the Behemoth and Locanda(optionally). The evil Prince Thrakhath, the betrayal of Hobbes, death of Angel, punching Paladin, what a wonderful game this is.
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It this is what are we suppose to discussing about, not having a bitching session about who is right and wrong?!?!
 
It just occured to me that people are dissing WC when they should appreciate it, Wing Commander not just 3 but all of Wing Commander are decent and enjoying games. They have the same feel when Axies and Allies are fighting one another in WW2. What I see in WC is the same thing, Humanity againast Kilrathi, fighting for survival. I dont understand why people criticise it when they should appreciating the originality and ideas that came in for the game...
 
No one in their right mind here doesn't appreciate Wing Commander. The debate here is, "Is it some blaitant social commentary, Was tolwyn a space nazi, did angel's curly hair symbolize chris roberts's preference for women with curly hair?" People are trying to put more of a purpose to Wing Commander than is intended, as several others have pointed out. Now the debate is, "How evil is tolwyn?" but no where has anyone dissed on WC as a whole, certain parts have us scratching our heads but we don't hate the whole WC universe for these minor personal thoughts.

-Rance-
 
"Is it some blaitant social commentary, Was tolwyn a space nazi
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Nope I dont think that Tolwyn was a space nazi, I would Geoff to Winston Churchill. Towlyn was officer bred for combat, duty and honor. His ambition was to battle the Kilrathi and win the war against them. He was not prepared for the possibility that humanity might win. Because of the "fluke shot" Towlyn was left with nothing to do and so he had to make some excuse to continue with some personal agenda to make Confed a military government of sorts.

did angel's curly hair symbolize chris roberts's preference for women with curly hair
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That is the most ridiculous theory/assumption I have ever heard

How evil is tolwyn?
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I don't think he is evil? But then we have to define what is evil.
In some ways Tolwyn may have been mislead where he continues to believe that there is still war wagering after the Kilrathi and that Confed has to be prepared. There are 101 reasons of seeing why Towlyn acted accordingly but one reason does stand out from my point of view is that after his wife and sons died, I think a different Tolwyn appeared. The Tolwyn we now through the games whereas the Tolwyn prior to the death of his family may have been different. For example in the novel of Action Stations the attitude and behaviour of Towlyn shows some things which the older Towlyn did not.....
 
vindicator said:
I'm not arguing legal rights or context, I simply said the leap isn't as far as people like to think it is because it makes them more comfortable.
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Yeah, and I said that that's an incredibly stupid point to make, because it's not in the least bit true. It's the kind of argument that various generic "affirmative action" activists make - "oh, you don't like <insert 'repressed' minority here>, eh? Well, next thing you know, you'll be saying they should all be shot!"

Not only is this obviously as far from the truth as possible, it's also a damned stupid thing to argue, because you achieve the exact reverse of what you want. If you tell people that not liking a group of people is just a step from trying to exterminate them, you're not going to make them think of themselves as being a step from evil - instead, you'll make them think that people who plan campaigns of mass extermination weren't evil... after all, they were exactly like us, it's just that they went a little overboard.
 
Hmm, what makes you think that wasn't the thought I was trying to provoke, just for the sake of it? I was simply saying that, because I want people to really look at what their saying, that something like that isn't easy to come across and that my opinion is that tolwyn didn't seem to have the switch in his psych for the human extermination. There isn't really a reason for him to want to thin out humanity. There is nothing in his history that demonstrates that this is a possibility. People always state that it was the war with the cats that did it, but still, that wasn't against his own kind. If anyone can prove that he had a beef with his own people and wanted to thin them out, please provide that proof now.

-Rance-
 
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