Wing Commander III

[Delance]

It is kinda stupid that we are debating the debate. ugh.

Yeah, you got it right. Its kind of cool how the "disagree with whatever Delance says" rule is still on, even if means contraditory positions, considering how old the ADA is. Maybe we can find the rules on a Launchie FAQ somewhere.

Only Banbridge, Richards, Tolwyn etc, have any clarity of vision and purpose. they are the only ones who can see the real threats and worry about the right things. all civvies are eithers hippies who hate war and love bunnies and have sex with aliens, or greedy sleazy bastards who can sacrifice half of confed territory (or spacetory) just to nail a good contract, and can also talk their way out of the battle of Repleetah...

Heh, that's true. Kind of like on the Iraq war, where anyone in favor of removing (they are PRO WAR! WAR IS BAD!) Saddam was a bloodthursty warmonger receiving money from the international burgois conspiracy to conquer the world, while Saddam's allies became international heros of peace and justice. They just fond another mass grave. Woman and children killed by gunshot. Reagardless of any opinions about Bush, destroying that dictatorship was a good thing.

 

[Edfilho]

We shouldn't go into this iraq thing.

 

[ChrisReid]

If you film a Shakespeare play giving bad guys nazi helmets, everyone will get it. But the reference on WCIV was deeper than a mere visual reference.

Being subtle was never under discussion. So what if it was an obvious social commentary?

Does not compute.

 

[LeHah]

Though, jokes aside, I'm not sure what you're talking about - I don't think things are anywhere near that obvious, early in WC4 (which is ironic, given how that Space Nazi thing unfolds later on).

Agreed. But when you play through it again, you can definitely see what colors they were painting with. Go back and listen to Paulson's "come to Jesus" speech if you don't initally defect with Eisen.

Place yourself in the head of someone playing WC4 for the first time, having never seen the all-revealing "Tolwyn's evil" trailer, and having chosen not to see the optional Seether arrival scene... at the time when you're asked to defect for the first time, what possible reason would you have to believe that the Border Worlders are the victims rather than the villains?

The only thing that was ruined for me was Tolwyn's fate in prison. Damned strategy guide! As for the "defection", I followed Eisen the first time he asked me simply because I liked his character and really disliked Naismith.

I'm not sure he remembers it, and that’s why I didn’t want to mention it, but Chris was one members who was making quite a strong point that the Black Lance are NOT supposed to be Space Nazis, and that the clothing, salutes and logo had nothing to do with it. Maybe he changed his mind, maybe not, it doesn't matter.

The ball is in your court. Put your money where your mouth is and prove that it was Chris. The burden of evidence is yours, not ours.

But shouldn't space Hitler be trying make a totalitarian dictatorship?

Not nessessarily. Since theres no evidence supporting that claim - aside from "If group A did it, that means group B must do it too!" - it's purely "sterile conjecture", as Captain Sansky put it.

Yeah, he was trying to impose a dictatorship, and the references are quite obvious.

Neither the game nor the book (to the best of my memory), speaks of any type of political ambition for Tolwyn. If anything, the clandestine nature of the Black Lance suggests that he wants to remain out of the relm of politics and stay within the military as an established figurehead or leader.

Depth is a subjective thing. It’s kind of like Star Wars. Some think it’s shallow and silly while others find deep meaning.

The reason Star Wars is popular is because there is no deep meaning. Its a universal understanding that makes it popular - its very clear cut and dry. It's strength lies in it's ability to mean many things to many people - but its hardly a thought provoking or life affirming body of art.

And it was not just about eugenics, it was merely part of the whole thing. Even today there’s a lot of interest groups defending social engineering and behavior modification. Not on a genetic level, but on a cultural level. Not via direct violence, but by coercion of the State, rules and regulations. That is relevant, and it’s based on the idea of progress as the ultimate goal of a society. Also present is the collectivist concept that greater good, as defined by a nebulous group of specialists, should be enforced on everyone. That wouldn’t make a good space opera, perhaps. But the basis of these ideals is not that different from the ones Tolwyn mentioned on the game.

While your attempt to make plausable distinctions between a social commentary and Wing Commander 4 is admirable, you're really treading water in an empty pool. As LOAF said before, you're reading into it too deeply and anything can be found anywhere if you look hard enough. You can find the meaning of life with ketamine and an afternoon of Power Ranger episodes.

So what? Obvious doesn’t mean shallow or unintelligent. A very shallow and idiotic concept can be expressed by a intricate and hermetic speech. Complex and deep ideas can be conveyed on a speech easy to understand.

Validation doesn't come from content but from it's core aspect of presentation. Star Wars, Mad Max and The Matrix all have the same dynamic story core but they're all considered seperate stories with their own worlds. Does this mean that they all have some sociopolitical viewpoint on the radical right and the arguement of keeping the ten commandments in a courthouse? No - but you can find it if you look hard enough and want to find it in the first place.

 

[Porthos]

We shouldn't go into this iraq thing.

Too late, it seems.

LeHah, you keep bringing up the "Radical Right" like it's some kind of vast rightwing conspiracy. Drop the pretentiousness, and switch radical to religious, or more accurate still, Christian. Just tell us how you really feel, eh?

 

[Fruitcake]

If the obvious Axius base speech was never held, and the Black Lance pilots weren't dressed in black uniforms with black boots, that wouldn't have changed WC4. So the point that *maybe* Tolwyn = Space Nazi is kind of obsolete.

 

[LeHah]

LeHah, you keep bringing up the "Radical Right" like it's some kind of vast rightwing conspiracy.

That makes no sense. If it were some kind of conspiracy, I'd probably never hear of it, now would I?

Drop the pretentiousness, and switch radical to religious, or more accurate still, Christian.

I could say something but I like other people on this board too much to soil it with foul language.

 

[TC]

No stupid Iraq arguments in the Wing Commander forum. Wander off to Off Topic if you want to talk about politics.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I'm not sure he remembers it, and that’s why I didn’t want to mention it, but Chris was one members who was making quite a strong point that the Black Lance are NOT supposed to be Space Nazis, and that the clothing, salutes and logo had nothing to do with it. Maybe he changed his mind, maybe not, it doesn't matter.

The reason I mentioned the discussion was not to confirm it, but to establish a primary and reliable source that Black Lance = Space Nazis is not sure a clear cut case.

Oh, well, it Chris may have said something, then I must also believe it.

Luckily, we can ask Mr. Reid straight out to comment on this. Hey, Chris - when Wing Commander IV revealed Admiral Tolwyn wearing an SS uniform in front of a big SS lighting bolt, giving a big speech about eugenics to his supporters who applaud him with the Nazi salute, what do you think Borst and DePalma were going for -- a sly commentary on whatever -ism Delance likes this week... or some sort of really, really obvious reference to, oh, lets say Nazi Germany?

Also, when I mentioned that Tolwyn was trying to implement a totalitarian dictatorship, you claimed he wasn’t. Now you claim he’s obvious and unquestionably Space Hitler. But shouldn't space Hitler be trying make a totalitarian dictatorship?

Yeah, he was trying to impose a dictatorship, and the references are quite obvious. All of this is true, and does not conflict with the rest of the point I was making.

I think I would continue to argue that he wasn't trying to impose a dictatorship (at least, nothing is said about this in the game -- and the idea is counterred by various later sources). That would be perhaps even more literal than Wing Commander IV is willing to be... the idea isn't that because he's Space Hilter he will do all the same things as real Hitler.

He's Space Hitler because the writers decided this was the best way to suggest to the audience he was bad - and that's what's really, really lame. They sat down and said "How can we show Tolwyn is *bad* now?", and they sat and thought for a minute and they went "Oh, you know who people think is *bad*? Hitler! Lets make Tolwyn allude to Hitler in very obvious ways!".

(But if he's Space Hitler, why didn't he dissolve the Space Reichstag?! Eh? Where's your messiah now, LOAF?! Denying the painfully obvious on the claim that fiction isn't exactly the same as the reality it's alluding to is an odd choice for someone who claims to see Tolwyn as representative of any philosophy you want to attach to him.)

Depth is a subjective thing. It’s kind of like Star Wars. Some think it’s shallow and silly while others find deep meaning. The same applies here, I suppose. But the meaning is there, intended or not. It’s not fruit of overanalyzing, given the reasonable amount of quite literal mentions of a lot of specific concepts

If Confed had a stockpile of black uniforms and bio-weapons locked down on an hidden base on Axius, and a bunch of former G.E. pilots drinking on some dusty border worlds bar, it would be much less problematic.

And it was not just about eugenics, it was merely part of the whole thing. Even today there’s a lot of interest groups defending social engineering and behavior modification. Not on a genetic level, but on a cultural level. Not via direct violence, but by coercion of the State, rules and regulations. That is relevant, and it’s based on the idea of progress as the ultimate goal of a society. Also present is the collectivist concept that greater good, as defined by a nebulous group of specialists, should be enforced on everyone. That wouldn’t make a good space opera, perhaps. But the basis of these ideals is not that different from the ones Tolwyn mentioned on the game.

So, on a metaphorical leval, intended or not, even if not as widely perceived by most people, WCIV does convey a strong anti-collectivist message.

Except if it's not intended and it's not perceived then it's just something you made up. I can take a similarly inappropriate, unconnected smattering of facts from Wing Commander IV and argue the *opposite*.

All worlds are equal to the great and noble Border Worlds! You have to rely on your whole fighter wing working together to win! Ooh, and when you disrupt the balance by affecting peoples moral, our collectivist ship society reforms itself to react differently to events! Heck -- there are missions with a second wing that has to do its job too! The Intrepid is *clearly* a huge symbol supporting the idea of collectivism, overcoming even the darkest evil Space Hitlers.

That was not intelligent discourse, it was calling an apple an orange.

So what? Obvious doesn’t mean shallow or unintelligent. A very shallow and idiotic concept can be expressed by a intricate and hermetic speech. Complex and deep ideas can be conveyed on a speech easy to understand.

Being heavy handed and over the top also doesn’t mean it’s stupid or has no profound meaning.

It was heavy handed and stupid because it lacked an appropriate meaning - the message was "Hitler is bad, Tolwyn is bad... so lets make Tolwyn like Hitler!".

So any book or movie about WWII that shows a nazi cerimony is shallow and idiotic?

And no, that’s the obvious reveal. It’s the more obvious part, because, you know, this is a video game, so it must be something simple to understand. That’s why Sith use RED EVIL ligthsabers, and that’s why Darth Vader’s fighter was different on Star Wars. That something is obvious or relies on visual aids and symbols doesn’t mean that there’s no complexity.

Yes, that's what I mean, any movie about the Nazis that has Nazis in it is shallow. That's *obviously* what I'm trying to say. Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.

Yeah, you got it right. Its kind of cool how the "disagree with whatever Delance says" rule is still on, even if means contraditory positions, considering how old the ADA is. Maybe we can find the rules on a Launchie FAQ somewhere.

At the risk of hurting your ego, you joined an argument about Wing Commander IV and Tolwyn *already in progress*.

 

[Delance]

The ball is in your court. Put your money where your mouth is and prove that it was Chris. The burden of evidence is yours, not ours.

It was not an accusation. I'm not even sure he remembers it.

We are just discussing a video-game, it's not a legal battle.

The reason Star Wars is popular is because there is no deep meaning. Its a universal understanding that makes it popular - its very clear cut and dry. It's strength lies in it's ability to mean many things to many people - but its hardly a thought provoking or life affirming body of art.

A lot of things have no deep meaning and are not popular, so that is not a cause on itself. Besides, Star Wars is just a lot of cultural references and mixed religious beliefs mixed into a big mythology. Joseph Campbell felt it had a lot of deep meaning. Maybe he was crazy.

No stupid Iraq arguments in the Wing Commander forum. Wander off to Off Topic if you want to talk about politics.

Yeah, sorry about my part in that. By the time I wanted to edit, someone had already answered.

 

[Delance]

Oh, well, it Chris may have said something, then I must also believe it.

I was not trying to convince you of either point, just indicate that there was a debate about this some time in the past. What's your point? That it's impossible that someone will not make that connection? Not that it even matters to the subject.

(But if he's Space Hitler, why didn't he dissolve the Space Reichstag?!

No, but he would make no sense for Space Hitler to be a champion of democracy. Could you agree on that much?

Except if it's not intended and it's not perceived then it's just something you made up.

If by “made up” you mean “found to be literally stated on the game”, then yes.

As for intention, how you are so sure that no one involved on the project had, at any point, entertained a brief idea of making a minimally meaningful comment? That it might have happened is slightly hinted by the fact that the references are there.

I can take a similarly inappropriate, unconnected smattering of facts from Wing Commander IV and argue the *opposite*.

Do better, and show how Tolwyn saying "The Strong Shall Survive: Primary Universal Law" doesn't mean he believes that the primary universal law is a darwinistic principle.

Even better, you could demonstrate how the statement "Progress only comes trough struggle" doesn't means that Tolwyn considered it would be best for society to devote itself to struggle in order to obtain progress.

And it should be no trouble to elucidate how all this is nothing but a bunch of "inappropriate, unconnected smattering of facts"! After all, it would be overanalyzing to assume that "progress comes trough struggle" would have any connection "strong shall survive". It would plain simple making up stuff to argue that the strong would survive the struggle and that would mean progress.

Ooh, and when you disrupt the balance by affecting peoples moral, our collectivist ship society reforms itself to react differently to events!

Oh yeah, very good. Making up an argument that doesn’t make sense really proves my argument and doesn’t make sense!

After all, that a made up interpretation of a WCIV can be constructed is the ultimate argument against any interpretation of WCIV.

That was not intelligent discourse, it was calling an apple an orange.

Oh, so if you point to an apple and say “that’s an orange” it must mean anything I said about WCIV was wrong.

Yes, that's what I mean, any movie about the Nazis that has Nazis in it is shallow. That's *obviously* what I'm trying to say. Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.

No, you said that a game about space nazis that *gasp* has space nazis is shallow.

Actually, what I was talking about was the "obvious" = "shallow" and "not subtle" = "not deep" part.

I point to some statement from Tolwyn, and you counter it by indicating that they had a SS logo. I specify another statement, and, no, that's irrelevant because they were using *black* uniforms. Nothing profound can possibly be present on a game were the bad guys are wearing black. If it were turquoise uniforms, then, who knows!

At the risk of hurting your ego, you joined an argument about Wing Commander IV and Tolwyn *already in progress*.

No kidding. I was not being really serious on that, you know.

 

[Quarto]

Agreed. But when you play through it again, you can definitely see what colors they were painting with. Go back and listen to Paulson's "come to Jesus" speech if you don't initally defect with Eisen.

Oh, definitely - if you refuse to defect with Eisen, then the game starts bombarding you with all sorts of subtle and not-so-subtle hints that you should reconsider. But by then, it's too late - since the next time you're given the option of defecting, it's not actually an option but a requirement.

 

[Edfilho]

I never hesitated in following eisen. the man cannot go wrong.

 

[Dahan]

Hmm out of all the games come and gone. Many have the similar plot, save against world domination from an alien threat blah blah blah ie XCOM, Doom Series, Half-Life Series and other games, I don't think there has been a game or a flight sim which has such a history like the Wing Commander Series. Sure it is alien against humans, but the relationship, the love and hate, the personal journey and what nots brings the best out of the game. I become addicted to WC when I first saw the introduction between the Prince and Emperor.....ah so many fond memories.....

 

[Dragon1]

A cool sub-plot idea for why Tolwyn went bonkers in WC4:

After the Behemoth was lost in WC3, Barbara Miles (TNC news) announced that Tolwyn was goint to take some kind of stress related leave. While Tolwyn was on vacation he was abducted by agents of the "Aligned Peoples". Tolwyn's personality was moderately altered so that he would act as an agent of chaos in the Confed/Kilrathi region of the galaxy in preparation for the eventual Nephilim invasion. No doubt a high level Kilrathi officer was also abducted, perhaps even Melek.

Tolwyn wasn't looking to create a new order of control in Confed, his goal was perpetual conflict (no order out of chaos, just chaos). With humanity busy destroying itself in a constant state of warfare, the Nephilim invasion of Kilrah and Proxima (I think this is where they made their entry in SO ) would have destroyed what little defense could have been brought to bear. Humanity and the Kilrathi would have had no choice but to become one with the 'Aligned Peoples'.

 

[LeHah]

Once the ‘disc of sorrow’ is in place keeping the squirrels from the birds’ food, you may see grown squirrels crying in sadness.

 

[Delance]

While Tolwyn was on vacation he was abducted by agents of the "Aligned Peoples".

This nearly beats Blair as a a borg-like commander of the bugs and the Black Lance cloning Tolwyn.

The same kind of thing destroyed the plot of Freelancer. The backstory was more interesting as a tentative political thriller than the invasion of the body snatchers.

 

[vindicator]

I like alot of the art that binds th WC universe togther.
I do like WCIV by itself and do think that because it uses some things that we could recognize as realistic plot lines. I believe that the novels especially allowed me to slip into the universe and participate in what the characters might have been feeling especially in fleet action. WCIV was especially tough as a story because it has to do with the downfall of such a key figure in the universe. I was able to really get involved and want to replay the game just to see the different pieces of the story. I think the fact that the story is truthfully drawing a connection to the past makes it some what more believeable as a story. I still don't appriciate that tolwyn had to be turned bad but really, what's done is done. It can't be undone nor made any better.
The big argument I agree with is that it wasn't a creative reach to turn Malcom Macdowell bad.

-Rance-

 

[Haesslich]

You know, there are easier ways to explain Tolwyn becoming Space Hitler - and Action Stations DID try to insert some seeds of it, which False Colors followed up on. Is it truly that inconceivable that he'd go around the bend after almost 40 years of war, or at least to become very extreme in his views??

 

[vindicator]

I don't think anyone argues whether or not his becoming space hitler wasn't a good tie in, I think most of us were just dissapointed in the writters having a lack of creative vision beyond the "Easy bad guy" deal. I don't think anyone said it was a far reach.

I could be wrong but this thread is very huge and I have forgotten some of what may have been posted.


-Rance-