What is with the Nephilim?

[Shane]

Knight, I actually don't have a PhD. I left part way through my PhD program because my starting salary for what I do now was more than all but one of my professors, who was Chair of the Department. I also had a tendancy to think outside the box which wasn't always welcomed in my department.

Oh, I know the Nephilem force is quite large, Shane. But remember, that gate can't let too many ships through at once until the reinforcing structure is built. So, in the first hours after the invasion, the Nephilem force would in fact be quite small. And there are 7 (-1) planets in the Kilrah System, plus more than a few moons. That means that unless they know exactly what's there, the 4th moon of the 7th(6th), outermost, planet will not get much attention at this stage. Unless, like I said, they know what's there.

I think on this we'll have to agree to disagree. I think a ship and an escort to each planet in the sytem isn't unreasonable. Confed Fleet Doctrine for jumping through regular jump points is 5 minutes between ships. If the surge marks the first ship coming through it is about 11 hours between the time the first ship came through and the colony on Kilrah 6 got hit, and not quite 12 hours to get to Kilrah 7. If one bug capship came through every 10 minutes, you would have 6 of them in the first hour, if they came every 15 you'd have 6 in an hour and a half. Which would still give them one capship per planet and 9.5 hours to get to Kilrah 7. And that is assuming the estimate of the time of the bases destruction is correct. The math can work. I think the bugs may have gotten lucky with the pirate base, or they spooked them into revealing themselves.

Oh, and as for K-105 records, it might not have even occured to them to check. Especially since the records wouldn't bring much attention to such "errors".

Well depending on how they do science in the future, even anomolies are noted. But I can see the Intel boys missing it on an initial briefing. They do seem suspicious of the anomoly, it would be nice in the future to have a definitive statement that more of these had been found. But [ insert lament about the future of Wing Commander ]

The Empire of Kilrah was an authoritarian state in theory only. In reality, the Emperor was just barely clinging to his throne, with seven Clans plotting his overthrow. Now, in their pride, each Clan had probably set up its own capital outside of Kilrah. So, not all records were lost with Kilrah.
This especially applies to the Cult of Sivar. If Vatican was destroyed, then indeed all their artifacts would be lost. But if Florence was destroyed, Vatican remains, in spite of the fact that they're both in Italy. The Cult of Sivar, you see, is based on one of the moons of the Kilrah system, not on Kilrah itself. Again, it's not a twenty-year old video recording that we're seeing in the WCP intro. Do not fail to understand the implications of that. The Priestesses of Sivar did not keep all their records and artifacts on Kilrah. And I suspect that it was the Priestesses that wrote most of the old Kilrathi records, much in the same way early European history was written mostly by monks.

Where did you hear the cult was based on a moon? Perhaps I missed something, was it in the opening clip, I'll have to look and see. The ICIS mentions a Sivarist monastic outpost of one of the asteroids that once was part of Kilrah, but I was under the impression that that was built after the destruction of Kilrah. I just have a hard time picturing the Kilrathi taking anything of that nature off planet. I could see perhaps it having been recovered, though I can't see it surviving. I'll have to look at the opening again. It also could be a reporduction of the orignal stone.

As for the Clans, I can't imagine a Clan Leader would try move the capital from Kilrah. Maybe my interpretation is wrong, but I've always been under the impression that all of the Clan leaders lived on Kilrah. Yes different clans had claim to different sections of the Empire, but it was Kilrah where all the important decsions were made so it was there that they resided. Lesser memebrs of the family became govenors of planets, etc., but the real power always flowed from Kilrah. Sort of like Trantor in the Foundation series, only on a smaller scale. I'll agree there were sector capitals, like K'tithrak Mang, perhaps, but I don't feel they would necessarily have copies of everything on Kilrah. The Kilrathi probably couldn't imagine the concept of there being no Kilrah, so I'm not sure they planned for that. Yes, there was the prophecy, but if Kilarh was lost all hell would come raining down on them anyhow, so why bother to spread the artifacts and records out? The Cult of Sivar may have spread some things out, but if you look at the Catholic Church again as an example, some of the great Cathedrals have many relics that are unique to that locations, but most of them are actually in the Vatican. As I said before, I have a hard time buying the idea that the priestesses would move the center of the religion off Kilrah. It was likely in the same place for a few thousand years before the Kilrathi even attained space flight.

Sour grapes? I think not. It may well be that the original Nephilem party wasn't there to fight, but merely to study. A scouting party, if you will. I don't know why there was a 4000 year delay, but I do not think it was a matter of another race. Just think about it - what in hell would keep them busy for 4000 years? Only two options here -
1) The Nephilem are, and always were, pathetic weaklings, and it took them 4000 years to finally win their war. This option, as you can immediately see, is absolutely ridiculous. The Nephilem invaders are not weaklings. This leads to option two...
2) The Nephilem are strong, but their opponents were much stronger. It took 4000 years to defeat them because the opponents controlled a vast empire of valuable resources, and enormous manpower. However, this option indicates that the victorious Nephilem are now in control of this vast empire of resources. But personally, I do not think that the Nephilem are that powerful. You might say that the size of the fleet gathered on the other side of the Kilrah jump point would indicate that they are. I don't think so though. If they really had limitless resources, then we wouldn't have seen one wormhole, but ten, or twenty.

My original posts way back mentioned that the opposition was from Nephilim space as well. I can't figure out the 4000 year thing either, unless it has something to do with the destruction of the planet of Kilrah which enabled the bugs to re-open their gateway. What do you think is the cause for the 4000 year gap? Are you arguing that the prophecy is pretty much how things happened and why things are happening now? I agree, I have a hrad time seeing a 4000 year war. But a shorter war, followed by a period of peace and then a renewal of the conflict. The problems again is 4000 years is a long time, unless the bugs have longer lifespans or their perception of time is different from ours.

Sivar. There has only been one Sivar. The war god and the prophet are the same person, in the same way that Jesus Christ is also considered the son of God, and in the same way that Buddha is almost a deity in his own right. And Sivar was not a Kilrathi or alien hero who achieved god-like status for his feats. He was a historical prophet.
I haven't read the WC4 novelisation, but note that the Kilrathi process of demonisation only applies to those who defeat them, or at least are not defeated by them. It is for this precise reason that I think that any offworlders in the Star Gods incident would have been deityfied along with the Nephilem. Oh, and the way they made him look? It's symbolic. At least I haven't heard anybody claiming that Christian saints really did have big yellow circly things around their heads. The Kilrathi are not converting Blair into a Kilrathi - that wouldn't make sense. Just think. If Blair was a Kilrathi, and he fought against the Kilrathi, then he was a traitor, and as such his great deed is nullified by his treachery. Therefore, they cannot Kilrathify him.

Ah, but there you are wrong, at least by the story that was told in the WCIV novel. The Kilrathi were in the process of deifying him, because they saw him as a savior of sorts who would help bring about an even better and stronger Kilrathi people. Granted this flies in the face of the Prophecy of Sivar, but it isn't the first time that different sources have collided in WC. The novel is at home, so I'll have to post the section later, but I remember it pretty well. Blair was uncomfortable with the whole concept and didn't mention it to the folks on the Intreped when he returned. I don't know if it was an addition of Forstchen's or something that got cut in the game scences, but it didn't make it into the game. As for the Sivar not being Kilrathi idea, I have no way to prove it, so I'll just let that be. I like your Buddha comparison. Works much better with what we know than a Jesus comparison.

And as I said before, the last thing the Kilrathi would do in such a situation is call themselves unworthy. When another person defends you in an argument, do you think that it's because he thinks you can't defend yourself? Of course not. You assume that it's because he respects you.

You haven't spent much time around women have you

Seriously, I know some people (and it seems to be women more than men) who get madder at the person who sticks up for them than the person they arguing with. They feel they are quite able to defend themselves and they don't need someone else butting in.

In that case, I am not from the Ockham's Razor school of thought. My school of thought is as follows - if two theories explain the same facts, go for the one which makes more sense. There are never two theories which explain the facts equally well, simply because one of them must be wrong.

Easier said than done. The problem is getting all the evidence. A scientific theory must be testable. It must be possible in principle to prove it wrong. Experiments are the sole judge of scientific truth. The scientific method consist of observations, hypothesis/theory, experiment (test), revision of theory. No matter how much evidence we have for a conclusion, the conclusion could still conceivably be false.
The more positive cases in favor of a hypothesis, the stronger the hypothesis is.
The most logically sound samples are those that are representative of the entire set.
It is possible to make true conclusions from false assumptions. However, a hypothesis can only be confirmed but it cannot be proven absolutely true. Even though a scientific hypothesis cannot be proven absolutely true, that does not mean that it must be false. The probelm we have in this case is that we don't have a way to really test what evidence we have. In a way we are like some 19th century groups of scholars who would sit around and discuss why some cultures were they way they were but never actually went into the field and studided them.


[This message has been edited by Shane (edited July 21, 2000).]

 

[Quarto]

I think on this we'll have to agree to disagree. I think a ship and an escort to each planet in the sytem isn't unreasonable. Confed Fleet Doctrine for jumping through regular jump points is 5 minutes between ships.

Yes, but Confed ships all have their own jump drives. Here, the Nephilem are using a jump gate, and as you know, the gate needs a lot of reinforcement to be stable. Though of course I don't know anything about bug tech, I don't think the gate would survive those first few hours if ships were jumping in one every five, or even ten minutes.

Where did you hear the cult was based on a moon? Perhaps I missed something, was it in the opening clip, I'll have to look and see. The ICIS mentions a Sivarist monastic outpost of one of the asteroids that once was part of Kilrah, but I was under the impression that that was built after the destruction of Kilrah. I just have a hard time picturing the Kilrathi taking anything of that nature off planet. I could see perhaps it having been recovered, though I can't see it surviving. I'll have to look at the opening again. It also could be a reporduction of the orignal stone.

"Baron Jukaga smiled as he read the report. It seemed that both the Emperor and his son were to take the Imperial cruiser out to Largkza, the second moon of Kilrah to attend the yearly ritual of Pukcal, the day of atonement at the famed temple to Sivar located on that planet."

The way I see it, a temple must be pretty darned important if the Emperor himself goes there - especially for one of the two most important Kilrathi rituals (the other being the Sivar-Eshrad ceremony, which also doesn't take place on Kilrah).

The Clan Lords would built their own capitals on other planets for reasons of pride, and pride alone. Yes, they could just stay on Kilrah, but they can only ever own a tiny part of Kilrah, and that will always gnaw at their minds. It will always remind them that they are not of the Imperial family - and they don't want to be reminded that.

My original posts way back mentioned that the opposition was from Nephilim space as well. I can't figure out the 4000 year thing either, unless it has something to do with the destruction of the planet of Kilrah which enabled the bugs to re-open their gateway.

But it can't have anything to do with that. Even if we ignore all the other reasons, the fact still remains that the Nephilem were supposed to come back even if Kilrah isn't destroyed.
I don't know what the 4000 year gap was about, but that wasn't it.

Ah, but there you are wrong, at least by the story that was told in the WCIV novel. The Kilrathi were in the process of deifying him, because they saw him as a savior of sorts who would help bring about an even better and stronger Kilrathi people. Granted this flies in the face of the Prophecy of Sivar, but it isn't the first time that different sources have collided in WC.

In particular, it flies in the face of "And what is a race without a homeworld?" [Melek, WC3]
Blair probably just misunderstood them in WC4.

You haven't spent much time around women have you Seriously, I know some people (and it seems to be women more than men) who get madder at the person who sticks up for them than the person they arguing with. They feel they are quite able to defend themselves and they don't need someone else butting in.

Yes, well, it's a matter of pride, but at the same time it's a matter of pride

. In other words, pride can drive peope in both directions. In the case of the Kilrathi, my idea is probably right. If they acted the way you described, then they would never have inter-Clan wars. The two Clan Leaders would meet, and one of them would go home victorious. (The other wouldn't go home at all).

 

[Knight]

Well, you still sound pretty educated in physics, space, astronomy I guess is the proper term, and all that good stuff.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

 

[Knight]

In particular, it flies in the face of "And what is a race without a homeworld?" [Melek, WC3]
Blair probably just misunderstood them in WC4.

Glad you brought that up, ever read Titan A.E. basically the same principles as that.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

 

[Shane]

Quarto, I'll see if I can find a copy of WCIV around here at one of the used book stores. Any other WC books not found Down Under that you are really interested in? Other than Fleet Action, which I see you have

I can't promise anything, and I'm not going to give up my copy, not that you are asking that. Did that with the WC 1&2 guide and have since regretted it.

As for the other stuff. How long does it take the bugs to build a gate, or was it the structure of the gate coming through the hole just before the ship? I need to re watch that opening video. Forgot about that ceremony from Fleet Action. I'll have to think about that one for a while. As far as the clan lords, I'm assuming the clans are older than space travel for the Kilarthi. I'm also assuming then, that each of the clans has a good sized piece of real estate on Kilrah. Kilrathi are big on ceremony and tradition, at least as I've interpretted them. I don't know, maybe at some point a particularly strong Emperor drove the clans off of most of Kilrah, but I don't think that is right. I recall one of the novels talking about the fact the Kilrathi have been pretty much in a constant state of war since they obtained jump technology which has prevented clan warfare because they constantly have had a common enemy.

As for the return of the Star Gods. It always comes back to the myth of the Star gods. In a way the Kilrathi faltered with the Mantu. Granted they didn't lose but they didn't win either. The destruction of Kilrah seems to be a great explanation for why the Star Gods returned and how they were able to get into that part of space, though correlation is not always causation. Their not staying here the first time around is what doesn't make sense to me. Hell they are bugs, maybe they went into a collective cocoon thing

Now I'm starting to sound like Manaic.

 

[Shane]

Well, you still sound pretty educated in physics, space, astronomy I guess is the proper term, and all that good stuff.

I took a few undergrad Astronomy courses and some Geology in Grad school. Most of my graduate work dealt with Evolutionary Theory and skeletal analysis for applied uses in forensic anthropology. I was working mainly with deciduous dentition in subadult populations using statistical analysis to try to determine ancestry. Looking at those last couple senteces, perhaps I should translate.

Forensic Anthro has been in the news in the last few years, mostly due to places like Rawanda and Bosnia where you have mass graves. Also it is handy in things like plane crashes and older crime scenes. As a graduate student I did most of that, but the focus of my work was on children. What the Forensic Anthropologist tries to do is come up with a profile of the individual (ancesrty, sex, height and age) from the skeltal material. In adults, the first three are not too hard to do, if you have complete skeletons, though you can get by if you have the skull and pelvis and a few long bones(for height estimates.) Age in adults is tricky after about 25 or so. Kids are easy to age, since their is lots of data on growth patterns and age. Height is pretty easy as well, depending on how much and what kind of material you have. Before puberty though, gender and ancestry are tricky.

I was doing research on the size of the deciduous (baby or milk) teeth of children and had found some relationships between the size of certain teeth in realtion to other teeth and the ancestry of the child. But I ran into problems with the Cultural Anthropologist on the faculty who didn't like anything to do with issues of what they called "race" and some of the other Physical Anthroplogists who looked down their noses at anything that could be applied. I got annoyed, had been running the computer network for the department for a couple years, and while I had no formal computer education I had years of experience (which is often worth more, in some ways) so I looked at what people outside of the University were making doing the comptuer works I was doing part-time, realized the money was great and the hassles would be less, so I quit, got married (which I wasn't going to do until I finished my PhD) moved to Washington DC and now work for an insidious marketing agency. Funny how life sends you in odd directions.

[This message has been edited by Shane (edited July 21, 2000).]

 

[Knight]

What a touching story

I think that's where I'm heading (the computers, not the forensic thing...)

Plus I know what disagreeing with professors/teachers is like. I had to bring in like 15 different resources to prove my biology teacher wrong this year. You don't want to know what it was about, so I'm not going to say.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

 

[Quarto]

Shane: Yeah, one of my brothers did a bit of that stuff while studying archaeology. He really enjoyed it.

As for books, well, Action Stations and/or End Run would be nice. Fact is none of the books are findable Down Under, and so far all my attempts at getting people in the US to get them for me have failed miserably

. So, I'll appreciate whatever you can get, if you're serious.

The gate itself took only a few seconds to materialise - but note that it was just the towers, and none of the reinforcing structure. Thus, the whole thing was probably fairly fragile. Still, I don't want to speculate too much on bug tech, because we know far too little about that.

Yes, the Clans are older than space travel. And so is Sivarism - but they moved out of Kilrah. You're right that the Clans would have real estate on Kilrah. It is their homeworld, and it's obviously extremely important to them. And they certainly haven't been driven off Kilrah - any Emperor who tried that would be dead before the end of the hour. Basically then, what I'm saying is that the Clan Leaders willingly moved out of Kilrah (though they still have their palaces there, and so on), because doing so made them feel better. It gave them a feeling of independence. Note that every time a nation on Earth colonised another place, the vice-roy of the colony immediately set up a palace that was only slightly inferior to his king's palace. And note that these vice-roys avoided going back to their original nation whenever possible.

Note that the Kilrathi prophecy seems to differ a lot to what TC Intel describes it to be in the ICIS. I believe that the WCP intro contains the real prophecy. Well, not quite - because I also firmly believe that the Kilrathi modified the original prophecy to add Blair into it. Which makes me wonder what the proper original said.

 

[Shane]

KInda of a busy day so I don't have too much time. Did rewatch the intro. I didn't see anywhere in the begining where or when the clip of the prophecy was made. It does look like the gate came through, though. I'm not sure how much more of the gate is needed, but like you I'll pass this since Bug tech is a tricky topic.
As for Blair and WCIV, I'll write more later. I was mistaken they didn't change his features to make him more Kilrathi looking. And it may have only been Melek's followers that went with this idea. However, if they ever ultimately won, it probably would become canon for all Kilrathi. Melek told Blair that he was a Savior of the people . More later.

 

[Chernikov]

Dont have time to reply to most of it. Quarto put forward most of what I tried to say earlier in a more detailed and fragmented form.

About the orbit/pulse theory: have you heard about nuclear winter? Any pulse strong enough to cause that type of orbital shift would probably have similar effects to a small nuclear war at the time the blast hit the planet.

And for the "why" of the initial contact: perhaps the aliens have a Predator-type culture that lives for the fight, on a non-individual basis (already stated). The reason they can wait for a species to develop to a dangerous level is that their resource base (unknown limits) is large enough to permit the elimination of entire fleets so the Bugs can get their kicks (or fufil religous obligations, etc.)

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You deal death with your roars and your screams, your threats, your taunts, your overblown ego. I hand it out, one with the steel and the silence, the blackness around me, with a thought.

[This message has been edited by Chernikov (edited July 24, 2000).]

 

[Shane]

Quarto, this scene takes place on Melek's ship after Blair, Maniac and some othe BW pilots from the Intreped come to Melek's aid. In the novel, Blair's ship is damaged and can't make it back to the Intreped. Melek requests Blair land. Blair lands alone, the rest of the BW ships head back to the Intreped. Blair lands (the cats are using modified freighters as carriers, though not in the sense of the Tarawa, I picture more like a Drayman, where they just open the back and push the fighter out) and he and Melek exchange some ritual greeting and they exchange gifts. Melek and Blai briefly touch on current events, Melek tells Blair he doesn't think the BW is to blame, it is too obvious and that he has some gun camera footage for Blair.

"You invited me here to tell me that?" Blair said.

"Yes," Melek said. "Many on your side of the border would not believe a message from us, regardless of the reason. By bringing you here and giving to you the tape we have made, you can see for yourself that what we say is true."

Blair looked up at Melek. "It must be hard for you to work with me. I appreciate that you are being so forthcoming." I don't understand it, he thought to himself, but I'm glad this isn't just an excuse to rip my guts out personally.

"You have high status within my hrai," Melek said. It is not often we get to meet a savior."

He stopped, stock-still, and stared at the Kilrathi. "A what?"

"A savior," Melek repeated. "Our savior."

Blair searched his face for something he could recognize as humor, or insanity, or anything that would provide him with a rational explanation for Melek's words. "I don't understand. I would have thought your people would want to disembowel me for what I did." The image of Jeanette, dying in agony from Thrahath's slash, sprang into his mind.

"I would have," Melek replied, "until I understood your purpose." His face assumed a sober air. "Our war with you corrupted us," he began. "As the war went on and as we continued to spend lives, we learned from you. Both good things like tactics and bad things like treachery and asssa... ashashi..." He sighed, giving up on the tough word.

"Assassination?" Blair supllied.

Melek nodded. "Yes. We learned that from you and we learned it well. When we offered you the false treaty, there were many, like me, who thought we were perverting ourselves, becoming lowly like humans."

Blair kept his face still.

"The attack on your planets should have been a sacrafice to Sivar, our victory dance on your graves. Yet Sivar denied us victory. Some of us realized that we had spoiled the sacrafice, by using duplicity. It was like having a tainted knife to draw blood, an abomination to Sivar."

He guided Blair up a set of broad stairs and forward. They passed several Kilrathi females, some clothed, others naked. They turned their faces from the males. They were the first enemy females he had seen that weren't on an autopsy table.

He looked up at Melek, uncertain how to phrase the questions that threatened to pour out of him in a torrent. Melek looked at him.

"Those of us who had doubts did nothing. I confess I felt little except rage against humans. Your taint had sunk deep within our leadership. An attempt was made to assas... to murder by stealth our Emperor. The plot failed, but the seed was planted." He shook his head sadly.

"So how do I fit into this?" Blair asked.

"Sivar raised you up, gave you many victories. You became the equal of any Kilrathi, enough that you were honored by our people as much as by yours. Your hero-name reflected that honor." They entered a small, dark room. Melek bent to remove his loose shoes. He gestured for Blair to do the same.

"The Heart of the People of Sivar bcame corrupt. You became the blade that purified the People, that excises the corruption. You were our ritual of atonement, our Puckal."

Blair reeled from the implications of what Melek said. "Let me get this straight. You think that operationover Kilrah was the fullfillment of a purpose set in motion by your own god?" He shook his head. "You think I was part of some massive blodletting ritual?"

"Yes," Melek said. He looked again at Blair. "I have to believe the death of so many of my hrai, so many of my race was for some purpose. This way they can be redeemed by sacrafice and can rejoin us for future hunts and fights we shall wage in the name of Sivar."

He opened the inner door and gestured. Blair eneted and stopped, at first startled by the lack of light. He smelled a thick, cloying scent that he thought at first was incense. It took him a moment to realize it was burned blood He peered around, slowly taking in the details of the chapel. The paintings on the walls depicted sacrafices, hunts, battles, and victory. Towards the front of the room, above a smoking brazier were a humber of figures holding their hands up to make offerings to the Kilrathi god. He looked at Melek.

"The prophets of Sivar," Melek replied. He gestured for Blair to move forward. He did and gapsed in involuntary shock. There, among the prophets of offering scarafices to the god, were his own face and hands offering up what suspiciously looked like a torpedo. He turned to Melek unable to speak.

"You have helped my hrai find the true way, the honorable way. The taint at our core had to be cleansed in blood. Kilrah had to die for Kilrathi to live. Sivar smiles on us again."

Blair licked his lips. His throat felt dry and tight. "What will you do?" he asked. He stared at the mural.

"We will fight with the other hari, the other Clans, until one is on top," Melek replied. "Then there will be a new Emperor, a new Empire."

Balir didn't like the sound of that. The very little he had heard about the Kilrathi since his retiremnt said they were locked in a five-way civil war. It would be a long time, if ever, before one clan would rise from that mess to rule. If it had been anyone except the Kilrathi he would have laid odds that it wouldn't happen. But he knew the Kilarthi would someday be back, tempered by their suffering and stronger than ever.

Melek lead him from the altar room. "will you guest with us while we fix your ship so that you may return home?"

Blair looked at him a long moment, then glanced back towrads the chapel. "I'd like that. Thank you."

Blair gets a cermonial concubine for his stay and returns to the Intreped. It is this kind odf interpretation of actual events into the religious that I was talking of earlier. Instead of it being a crushing defeat it is a ritual of purification. Perhaps there were similar interpretations of the Star Gods actions that became the myths the ICIS talks of.

 

[Shane]

About the orbit/pulse theory: have you heard about nuclear winter? Any pulse strong enough to cause that type of orbital shift would probably have similar effects to a small nuclear war at the time the blast hit the planet.

I don't think the opening of the gateway caused a shift. I thought perhaps what closed it and seemingly prevented it from being opened again until the destruction of Kilrah was what helped cause Kilrah to be unstable. It seems there may be a close relationship between the destruction of Kilrah and the gateway being opened in its debris field. I mentioned the the idea of a shift in orbit, but I admit I can't see a way to have that happen without wrecking the planet.

And for the "why" of the initial contact: perhaps the aliens have a Predator-type culture that lives for the fight, on a non-individual basis (already stated). The reason they can wait for a species to develop to a dangerous level is that their resource base (unknown limits) is large enough to permit the elimination of entire fleets so the Bugs can get their kicks (or fufil religous obligations, etc.)

Yes but why wait until the Kilarthi are on the ropes? If they are waiting for them to be worthy, why bother with them if they fail to become worthy? Practice?



[This message has been edited by Shane (edited July 24, 2000).]

 

[Chernikov]

If they get wiped like they did, the average species/race would probably not be able to spring back. Therefore, you have a little fun turning them into puree and then have the real fight with what destroyed them.

 

[Quarto]

First, I'll just express my irritation at the way Forstchen makes it look as though Melek and Blair had never met before. Why would Blair be scared of treachery now, when it was Melek that had originally surrendered to him?

As for the rest of it... well, it's nothing new, really. Melek had mentioned in WC3 that their race had become corrupt and had paid the price. It is only natural that some of them would eventually honour Blair for it.

Note however, that in all this, Blair is obviously an exception to the rule. After all, there didn't seem to be any Mantu amongst the prophets. The Kilrathi do not consider every defeat to be a purge - only this particular one, and only because they felt the foul Humans had corrupted them.

Furthermore, note that they didn't attempt to deny that Blair kicked their butts. The very fact that they would acknowledge the aid of a mere Human destroys your theory. Why would they want to do otherwise with this species that helped them against the Star Gods?

Finally, note that the Kilrathi appear to not so much be trying to justify their defeat, but simply to justify the loss of Kilrathi lives. Hmm, nice. Yet another similarity between the two species

.

 

[Shane]

As we hash this out some more, I think that the outside force (which, until a book or WC game comes out and says otherwise, I feel was involved. I'm not giving up on this idea until you pull it from my cold dead hands

) may not have had much direct effect on or contact with the Kilrathi. I could still see a way in which this histroical event lead to the origins of Sivar, but as with the rest of this it is idle speculation. I'm not sure how much more fruitful this argument will be since we seem to be entrenched. I've seen examples of belief systems changing to take in new environmental and cultural shifts or adpating those chnages to fit their beliefs.

I was wondering if this might explain the scorning the ICIS mentions. I think this was the case with the Star Gods and what scorning the Kilrathi army meant. It could be that the bugs did wipe out a Kilrathi army from orbital bombardment which was interpretted as the Gods saying they weren't worthy. Since they didn't fight them as the Kilrathi knew warfare, that might be a "PC" way to say that they scorned the force.

Any other explanations? I have a hard time believing the Kilrathi would put an Army together, face off with the Star Gods, the Star Gods say, "Not good enough" and the Kilrathi look at each other, genuflect and start chanting, "We'e not worthy, we're not worthy."

If the Bugs just leave once the Army appears, that I would think would look like a victory to the Kilrathi.

Now if you had the smoting followed by a departure, that might be interpretted as the Star Gods scorning the force. There may be some survivors or witnesses and they don't want or can't admit that they were defetaed and then the enemy just left them. They take what they know and are shaped by how they view the world and thus the myth is born. Why the bugs leave is still open to debate, though.

 

[Metras]

Holy crow... I leave this post for 2 days and it blows up like a hot-air popcorn (Mmm...).

Great... now I have to spend the next while flipping back to see where everyone has gone with this.

The wonders of technology!

[This message has been edited by Metras (edited July 25, 2000).]

 

[JoeyRP]

This reminds me of Greek mythology.
From the Titans to the revolt of the gods,
to the revolt of man against the gods -
the different ages - the golden men...
The Greek is a bit of a defeatist from the way they write their myths and legends.
Man always got battered.

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Turn me loose, Colonel.
This is what I live for!

[This message has been edited by JoeyRP (edited July 25, 2000).]

 

[Knight]

I was wondering if this might explain the scorning the ICIS mentions. I think this was the case with the Star Gods and what scorning the Kilrathi army meant. It could be that the bugs did wipe out a Kilrathi army from orbital bombardment which was interpretted as the Gods saying they weren't worthy. Since they didn't fight them as the Kilrathi knew warfare, that might be a "PC" way to say that they scorned the force.

I like how you think. Given how religious the Kilrathi are, that is now my new guess as to what happened

It would explain alot of BS in those past posts

If the Bugs didn't put up a fight the way the Kilrathi knew, and figured that if this was the most intelligent life in this system, then they probably turned around and went home

They could have just blew a few villiages from orbit, give them something to think about, and a reason to fear them, and then moved on. They just never made it to our part of the map.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

 

[Quarto]

There seems to be a major loophole in your argument, Shane

. If the Nephilem wiped out the Kilrathi through orbital bombardment, then how is it that the Kilrathi met the Star Gods? (otherwise, they would just say that Sivar destroyed the unworthy... none of that Star Gods stuff)
Either the Star Gods came down, and then left before the bombardment - in which case, we're back to the original scenario, only with the additional implications that the Nephilem couldn't handle the Kilrathi on the ground. Or the Star Gods didn't come down and merely unleashed an orbital bombardment - and so, they wouldn't even be a part of the legend.

That pretty much concludes the orbital bombardment theory

.

 

[Shane]

There seems to be a major loophole in your argument, Shane

. If the Nephilem wiped out the Kilrathi through orbital bombardment, then how is it that the Kilrathi met the Star Gods? (otherwise, they would just say that Sivar destroyed the unworthy... none of that Star Gods stuff)
Either the Star Gods came down, and then left before the bombardment - in which case, we're back to the original scenario, only with the additional implications that the Nephilem couldn't handle the Kilrathi on the ground. Or the Star Gods didn't come down and merely unleashed an orbital bombardment - and so, they wouldn't even be a part of the legend.

That pretty much concludes the orbital bombardment theory

.

Nah, the Star Gods did come down. The Kilrathi army assembled. The Nephilim on Kilrah didn't have to flee (depending on the accuracy of the orbital strike.) After the smoting (love that word) they left. Perhaps even a Nephilim delegation was in a city near the battle. I'm still thinking of the Kilrathi fighting in phalanxes or some such formation at the time. Perhaps arrayed out over a valley, facing off against the Nephilim with the commanders of each army together even, or perhaps a reviewing stand of sorts with the leaders of the clans and a Nephilim delegation. That may be a stretch, but possible. The Nephilim observing the run-up to the battle with the Kilarthi leaders tell them their force is unworthy, at the same time sending a message calling in the bombardment. In the history of our world, war was sometimes a spectator sport. One of the early battles of the U.S. Civil War had a group of spectators come out from Washington DC, to see the Federal troops kick the snot out of the Confederates. Of course that battle didn't go that way... So it is quite possible. Heck, maybe the Nephilim were recruiting, though I doubt that.



[This message has been edited by Shane (edited July 26, 2000).]