What is with the Nephilim?

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Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Yes, at the beginning.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Lions assemble in prides in africa to defend from other spieces of attackers, and kill their prey, yet I don't see one with glasses and a Five-Star notebook out their writing down when, where, how long it took, and what kind of animal they killed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uh-huh. Yes. However, lions do not keep records of prophecies stating that the other species will return when the lions' pride one day gets their butts kicked by a bunch of gazelles. The Kilrathi did keep records. They were also intelligent enough to be able to communicate with the aliens and with each other. Thus, we can assume that they were quite developed at the time. I'm surprised you would even think for a moment that they couldn't keep records, since this is all about their records. And whether these were written down, or simply passed on to the next generation - is irrelevant.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ok, might have been. But do we really know all the official stuff about Kilrah? I mean, it's kinda hard to examine their records, since we blew them all to hell. Don't you think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh yes, a point well taken. Excuse me for assuming that all those Kilrathi from Ghorah Khar, K'arakh, Natanya, and Shariha (and that's just naming our friendly Kilrathi rebels) might actually know something about their race's history.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is Earth a stable planet? That depends on your defination of stable. My Astronomy and Space teachings may be fading, but my Earth Science classes last year aren't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're going to be a stickler for words, eh?
Quite right (and this time, I'm not being sarcastic). Earth is not a stable planet. The point is, however, that Kilrah is far more unstable, and has always been.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ok. I thought that by that point in time, we'd know what solar flares do to our instruments, along with most other space anomalies. I may be wrong though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You may indeed...
[ICIS Timeline]
2681.018
1441 - Confed Astronomical Station K-105 picks up unidentified surge near Kilrah Prime. Surge is identified as an equipment malfunction or the reflection of a solar flare.

I don't think you understand what I'm getting at here, though. It is completely irrelevant whether they classify it as human error, equipment malfunction, the reflection of a solar flare, or even the flash of a camera. The point is, it got written off as irrelevant. I'm quite certain that they would have noticed if it had any influence on nearby planets or asteroids. After all, being an astronomical station, they might be interested in that sort of thing
. But they did write it off.


I doubt it was their intelligence that led them to the hidden smuggler base. My guess would be their advanced sensors or the smugglers thought they could take them and attacked. We have no evidence of that incident, so lets stick with one we only have a little.[/quote]
But mon ami, we're supposed to be cooking up theories
. First things first, we can discount the idea of the smugglers attacking. Had they attacked, they would not have led the bugs back to their base. And quite clearly, something did lead the bugs to that base. Furthermore, this base is estimated to have been destroyed at 0215 - that's 17 minutes after last known signal from what would have been the nearest target for the bugs (Kilrah 6).
Because there is absolutely no way in hell that they could have travelled across the intervening distance within 15 minutes, we must assume that Kilrah 7.4 had always been considered an objective, and was engaged by a separate force. In order to have arrived there at 0215, this force would have had to go straight from the wormhole at full pelt. So, they must have known about the place beforehand.
 
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Mad Hatter

Spaceman
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KrisV:
That's not them, it's too soon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is kind of a late reply but I had my hands full the past couple of days.

I think 50 years more or less are close enough to the time of arrival of the bugs. Also, may I remind you that what Confed encountered was mostly a preliminary exploration task force and not the full bug fleet. So, basically, according to Action Stations, if they were talking about the bugs (and I`m pretty sure they did), the Bugs came from the center of our galaxy, or at the most, from the other side of it.

Sorry for interrupting, btw. You may continue.


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Sometimes you`re the windshield
Sometimes you`re the BUG...
 
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Knight

Spaceman
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quarto:
Yes, at the beginning.

Uh-huh. Yes. However, lions do not keep records of prophecies stating that the other species will return when the lions' pride one day gets their butts kicked by a bunch of gazelles. The Kilrathi did keep records. They were also intelligent enough to be able to communicate with the aliens and with each other. Thus, we can assume that they were quite developed at the time. I'm surprised you would even think for a moment that they couldn't keep records, since this is all about their records. And whether these were written down, or simply passed on to the next generation - is irrelevant.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong. It's very relevant. Reember that phone game Shane was talking about? (I figured you'd say something along those lines, so this one's actually thought out). As things are passed down, they get changed. So what was said 4 millenia ago when the Nephilim came, and what is said today by the kitties could quite possibly be two different stories. BTW, it says that 4 millenia in the ICIS manual, so that's how long it's been since the bugs were first in our end of the galaxy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh yes, a point well taken. Excuse me for assuming that all those Kilrathi from Ghorah Khar, K'arakh, Natanya, and Shariha (and that's just naming our friendly Kilrathi rebels) might actually know something about their race's history.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, we know some, but I don't think that we got to actually examine Kilrah in a scientific way to verify all the stuff they told us, nor did we get to access their main records that were on Kilrah. While I have no doubt we learned alot from the kitties, I think we just touched the iceberg, 'cept it's more like we just touched Antartica (SP?).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>You're going to be a stickler for words, eh?
Quite right (and this time, I'm not being sarcastic). Earth is not a stable planet. The point is, however, that Kilrah is far more unstable, and has always been.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, I've been known to be like that from time to time....At least we agree on something... It could have been for around four millenia. I mean, I understand that planets dont' just change over night, and all that, but I mean, 4000 years. That's a long time. Nothing compared to the life of a planet, but a good deal of evolution and planet evolution can happen in that amount to time.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>You may indeed...
[ICIS Timeline]
2681.018
1441 - Confed Astronomical Station K-105 picks up unidentified surge near Kilrah Prime. Surge is identified as an equipment malfunction or the reflection of a solar flare.

I don't think you understand what I'm getting at here, though. It is completely irrelevant whether they classify it as human error, equipment malfunction, the reflection of a solar flare, or even the flash of a camera. The point is, it got written off as irrelevant. I'm quite certain that they would have noticed if it had any influence on nearby planets or asteroids. After all, being an astronomical station, they might be interested in that sort of thing
. But they did write it off.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The point I was making there, was that we should've known what solar flares do. The pulse that opens a wormhole and the pulse that a solar flare gives off cannot be that damn close on the scale. No matter how short, no matter how powerful the flare. Theres got to be a noticiable difference that was overlooked.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>But mon ami, we're supposed to be cooking up theories
. First things first, we can discount the idea of the smugglers attacking. Had they attacked, they would not have led the bugs back to their base. And quite clearly, something did lead the bugs to that base. Furthermore, this base is estimated to have been destroyed at 0215 - that's 17 minutes after last known signal from what would have been the nearest target for the bugs (Kilrah 6).
Because there is absolutely no way in hell that they could have travelled across the intervening distance within 15 minutes, we must assume that Kilrah 7.4 had always been considered an objective, and was engaged by a separate force. In order to have arrived there at 0215, this force would have had to go straight from the wormhole at full pelt. So, they must have known about the place beforehand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Point taken. But that base wasn't there when they were hear 4000 years ago, so what are you saying? They had scouts here before the wormhole? Which doesn't make much sense, because how would they radio home? There was no wormhole to send transmissions through, no jump gate, no relay stations Confed's discovered. Subspace would've taken way to long to get there. Or what Mad Hatter's talking about, they had bugs here in the middle of the war, about the time the base was created??? This is just something that's popped into my head, so if it's wrong, don't worry about it. Not worth debating.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
 
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Shane

Spaceman
Geezum, where to begin. I have to editi this because between the time I started and finished (got called into the real world) 2 people have posted. Let's start with what I agree with. I agree with Quatro that the Kilrathi were not primitive, at least in the stone throwing sense. The ICIS said the event occured about 4 millena ago (if it was exactly 4000 years it would work out to around 1319 BC as we currently track time in most of the western world. If you look at Earth around 1300 BC, it is the late part of the Bronze Age (in the western world), it is close to the same time Moses supposedly recieved the Ten Commandments, it is almost 500 years after Hammurabi's Code of Laws was "published," it is around the time one of the earliest alphabetic systems, Ugarit, first appears in what is now Syria, and depending on who you ask, this is about 50 years before the Trojan War. Assuming the Kilrathi were developing at a rate similar to ours, and in fact I seem to recall reading somewhere that they actually were ahead of us. Either way, I don't think they were rock throwing cats at that time, I think they were more like some version of the early Roman Empire. It is my opinion though that they were still not advandced enough to understand what was going on, hence the myth. In additon 4 thousand years is a good chunk of time from a cultural point of view, though not from a geological, which I'll get to in a moment.

Quarto, I see you are from the Occam's Razor school of thought, which isn't a bad thing, by any means. A shift in orbit however, could cause a change in the planet's stability, because of a change in it's relationship to other forces of gravity, like its moons and it's star. It could also be that one of Kilrah's moons got knocked into a lower yet stable orbit. That would lead to an increase on tidal pulls and might very well have an effect. As for the wormhole and the astronomical station. If you look at the ICIS (I've got the gold one with me, the regular is at home) toward's the end of the section Analysis of Telemetry and Automated Subspace Traffic, they elborate on the K-105 observatory. I'm not sure what a dG is (in genetics it is shothand for deoxyguanosine), but I'm positive that isn't what they mean. The reading was 47,000 dG, but we have no scae to judge this on. Therefore it isn't clear to me whether it was powerful or not. It also crossed a wide spectrum of subspace frequencies to the lowest limit of the the station's detection equipment. Again since this is Sci-Fi, it isn't too clear what that means. If the scale is related to wavelengths, then they may be not geared to detect wavelengths either that short. Very short wavelengths in the EM psectrum are associated with high frequency and high energy (like Gamma-rays)It could very well be the reverse of what you are thinking Quarto. They said the surge fit no known subspace source, the staff may have assumed it was an error because they couldn't believe readings that high were possible. Sort of the equivalent of taking a person's temperature with a digital thermometere and having it register 200 degrees. The doctor's first thought would be the equipment wasn't working. It's not a perfect anaology, but you get the point. Unfortunately I'm unable to convert the "conventions" used to describe the energy readings into something I understand.

As for the attack on the Pirate base, remember that the time of the strike is estimated. However, it would make sense for the bugs, if they are planning to make Kilrah a beachead in this part of space to secure the area. That would include finding the location of all the planets orbiting Kilrah Prime (and their moons) and scaning to make sure the area is clear. Since they were what the Kilrathi called the Star Gods, they may have kept charts on the area, icluding in-system jump points. Or the could have the tech to more easily find them.

Finally, as for the gateway itself, I don't recall Finley saying it was just another jump point, but it's been a while since I've played it at that point (I'm replaying it now, but haven't had much time so I'm just at the Death of Dallas scene.) The ICIS seems to indicate that the entry is through a singularity or gate of unknown origin. That's why I was asking about the area where the second gateway was found in SO. I think that there are some regions of space that are different, perhaps weaker in some way, that allow the bugs to create these bridges from their space to ours. That's why I made the argument that the rift around Kilrah was repaired when the Star Gods left (or in my scenario forced to leave,) but the repair was undone with the construction of Kilrah. They may have been taking prisoners to try to extract intel from them looking for info on this kind of situation, though I thnk Nav systems, and astronomical databases would be more useful. They don't seem all that interested in capturing things, just beings. The only problem is the second gate doesn't seem to be anywhere overly strange, just in a binary system. It could be that the writers aren't that knowledgable in astronomy and think that binaries are rare, when in fact they make up something like 50% of the stars near us are binaries.


[This message has been edited by Shane (edited July 18, 2000).]
 

No Regret

Spaceman
It's special because it's the only binary system closest to us wich has a jumppoint leading directly for Sol, if I'm not mistaken.

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The time is near.
There are still quite a few days remaining.

I don't care for fame, power or money...
I just want to FIGHT!
-Sanosuke Sagara
 

KillerWave

Spaceman
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Knight:
The bugs are warriors, not murders. They want a fight, I'm assuming, it's what they live for. Coincidentally, like the Kilrathi. Hm...another connection...the Kilrathi live for war...so do the bugs...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In the introduction of WCP, didnt they destroyed the confed research vessel?? I dont remmember a fight...
that would mean that they actually MURDERED the people inside that ship, doesnt it?
Whats brings me back to the 'why' part. If they are the star gods, why they innitialy came, told the kilrathi that they would return to fight them (i still doesnt think that the bugs would leave the kilrathi alive), left and came back now?
Q, i dont think also that the kat base where there 4000 ago. But i do believe that they figured out the location of the base by sensors, captured kilrathi or something like that.



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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...
 
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Shane

Spaceman
Yeah, the bugs did wipe out the TCS Deveraux in the opening and I can't imagine they got any prisoners from what was left. However the ICIS debrief of Major Washington talks about finding a Dralthi where it looks as though the pilot had been removed. There is also comm chatter that has the bugs picking up Confed pilots. Given the documents from S0 (I did actually go to the Origin website and read through all of the chapter documentation for SO) it does seem like the bugs and their stuff isn't healthy for humans to be around. Maybe they are interested in bodies to test on as well.

I agree, given the way the bugs have acted so far, the story as the Kilrathi recorded it doesn't make a lot of sense. That's why I've always felt the Nephilim didn't leave Kilrah of their own free will. The Kilrathi may have interpreted it that way, but it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense that that is the way it happened.

I see it (in outline form as follows)

I. Bugs arrive in Kilrathi space
II. Bugs threaten Kilrah, perhaps even set up bases.
III. Kilrathi organize some type of resistance.
IV. Bugs forced to leave Kilrah due to some outside force, which "mended" the space around Kilrah to prevent a return by the bugs.
V (a). Kilrathi, who didn't actually fight Bugs to any large degree, but saw their might, felt they were unworthy, and it was this unworthiness that caused them to leave.

-or-

V (b). Forces that caused the bugs to leave came to Kilrah. May have even helped organize Kilrathi resistance. Perhaps resistence leader was the kil who "became" Sivar. He tried to warn that at some point the bugs might return. Kilrathi pride prevented them from admiting they had outside help, so the story became that they were not worthy foes, but if they mastered the arts of war they some day would become worthy.

It's thin in spots, but that's the distilled version of my argument.
 

Knight

Spaceman
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KillerWave:
In the introduction of WCP, didnt they destroyed the confed research vessel?? I dont remmember a fight...
that would mean that they actually MURDERED the people inside that ship, doesnt it?
Whats brings me back to the 'why' part. If they are the star gods, why they innitialy came, told the kilrathi that they would return to fight them (i still doesnt think that the bugs would leave the kilrathi alive), left and came back now?
Q, i dont think also that the kat base where there 4000 ago. But i do believe that they figured out the location of the base by sensors, captured kilrathi or something like that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, they did murder, but if they were keeping tabs on the Kilrathi, and the second you jumped in, you saw one of the ships that belonged to the race that was powerful enough to kill them, don't you think you'd take a defensive stance and blow'em all to hell. It'd be like sending a peace party to Nephilim space. If you see a ship right off the bat, you're not going to know if it's armed until it's too late (likely). You either disable that ship, or you just plain blow it up. But on a peace mission, that'd be a bad idea
But, once again, that's a bad analogy, I'm sorry. But it's all I have right now.

Also, the bugs could have assumed the Deveraux was a Kilrathi ship, I mean, they didn't really have time to do much verification before it went boom. They probably sensed the ship with scanners on the other side of the gate, thats how they had the gun ready.


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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

[This message has been edited by Knight (edited July 18, 2000).]
 
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Knight

Spaceman
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shane:
Yeah, the bugs did wipe out the TCS Deveraux in the opening and I can't imagine they got any prisoners from what was left. However the ICIS debrief of Major Washington talks about finding a Dralthi where it looks as though the pilot had been removed. There is also comm chatter that has the bugs picking up Confed pilots. Given the documents from S0 (I did actually go to the Origin website and read through all of the chapter documentation for SO) it does seem like the bugs and their stuff isn't healthy for humans to be around. Maybe they are interested in bodies to test on as well.

I agree, given the way the bugs have acted so far, the story as the Kilrathi recorded it doesn't make a lot of sense. That's why I've always felt the Nephilim didn't leave Kilrah of their own free will. The Kilrathi may have interpreted it that way, but it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense that that is the way it happened.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if you remember when Blair comes back, after being captured, they dredged up his memorys. If they could do something like that, and read his thoughts, well, bingo, instant intelligence. Same with Kilrathi pilots. Probably how they discovered that hidden base.

Well my distillary of the Kilrathi's story is that it's been passed on so many times, alot of it was lost, and alot added. Like the phone game you mentioned earlier.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quarto:
Uh-huh. Yes. However, lions do not keep records of prophecies stating that the other species will return when the lions' pride one day gets their butts kicked by a bunch of gazelles. The Kilrathi did keep records. They were also intelligent enough to be able to communicate with the aliens and with each other. Thus, we can assume that they were quite developed at the time. I'm surprised you would even think for a moment that they couldn't keep records, since this is all about their records. And whether these were written down, or simply passed on to the next generation - is irrelevant.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've touched this before, but only briefly. That, and I missed a part here. They were intelligent enough to communicate with the Bugs huh? Well, considering how quickly the bugs learned our language, I find that kinda hard to believe. Don't? the Kilrathi at the time were probably using something equilivent to the Ewok dialect (sorry to bring them into this, but I need to for this analogy). Like Threepio said, they were using a very primitive dialect, but he could derive what they were saying. Now, I'm not saying the Kilrathi were that way, but I highly doubt they were the ones that opened communications with the Bugs. It was the other way around. And I don't really think the bugs expected to find the Kilrathi, because if they knew they were on planet, they why land, or why not blow them up from the sky? I agree with Shane to a degree, but I don't know where this other race could've come from. Maybe it's the same one that build the pyramids in Egypt and make Stonehenge. Who knows, but I'm still not against the fact that they were not murders, but warriors. If they saw a threat, they'd fight it, but if it wasn't a threat, why bother. If the Kats were launching boulders from catapults (Ok, so they threw big rocks) and coming at the bugs' armies with shields and spears, hm....just doesn't sound like a big threat to a race with lasers and ships, does it? It's like sending a dog to kill a hampster. All the hampster can do is run from it, but eventually loses. Unless it can dig a hole......another bad analogy, damn, maybe I'm tired.... No, i'm still thinking they consider themselves true warriors, and therefore don't fight anyone unless they were putting up a fight to begin with.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
 
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KillerWave

Spaceman
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Knight:
Yes, they did murder, but if they were keeping tabs on the Kilrathi, and the second you jumped in, you saw one of the ships that belonged to the race that was powerful enough to kill them, don't you think you'd take a defensive stance and blow'em all to hell<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In any case, even if they think thats a kilrathi ship or if they think irs hostile or something, they did come in and destroyed the ship whithout warning. If they waited to see if it was hostile, thats one thing, but if they just go in and kill all they see, it really makes them murderers. If they waited and all to see if the bugs where worthy and all the first time around, i think that they would do the same to an unknown ship.


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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...
 

Shane

Spaceman
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Knight:
I've touched this before, but only briefly. That, and I missed a part here. They were intelligent enough to communicate with the Bugs huh? Well, considering how quickly the bugs learned our language, I find that kinda hard to believe. Don't? the Kilrathi at the time were probably using something equilivent to the Ewok dialect (sorry to bring them into this, but I need to for this analogy). Like Threepio said, they were using a very primitive dialect, but he could derive what they were saying. Now, I'm not saying the Kilrathi were that way, but I highly doubt they were the ones that opened communications with the Bugs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure if there was direct communication the Bugs initiated it. It's also a safe bet that Kilrathi language was farily sophisticated by that time, though the means of keeping accurate written records that would last through the ages did not exist. Hell, we don't really have it. Just go to any University library and they prolem have a whole section devoted to trying to preserve books that are not all that old that are crumbling away.

As for the outside race. Like I said it may be something the Kilrathi did not know about or was lost to history. Much like the library at Alexander was destroyed maybe, much of the records of those times was lost as well, and all that remains is the religious version. Also it is a great propaganda tool to keep the Kilrathi focused on improving the art of war. One other thought I've toyed with is the idea that the bugs were some bio-engineering project of the Steltek gone awry. The major flaw with this is that according to the dates from Privateer, the Steltek left this region of space loooong before the Star Gods showed up on Kilrah.

Finally, the if the Bugs and the Cats fought a straight up battle the bugs would mop the floor with them. However the Cats were on their home turf, and a guerilla campaign of sorts might have some success. Especially if they were able to get some decent weapons, particularly if the Star Gods did not have an overwhelming force there. Remember the US pretty much had air superiority in Vietnam, but in the end did not fair as well as was hoped. Granted, the VC were more on par with the US in weapons than in this case, but there was a gap, which was made up for in some ways by tenacity and a willingness to make sacrafices. Also, the US government did not put its full effort into the fighting there.
 

Knight

Spaceman
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shane:
I'm sure if there was direct communication the Bugs initiated it. It's also a safe bet that Kilrathi language was farily sophisticated by that time, though the means of keeping accurate written records that would last through the ages did not exist. Hell, we don't really have it. Just go to any University library and they prolem have a whole section devoted to trying to preserve books that are not all that old that are crumbling away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep. Exactly what I was trying to explain to Q over there, just didn't come out as nice as that...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>As for the outside race. Like I said it may be something the Kilrathi did not know about or was lost to history. Much like the library at Alexander was destroyed maybe, much of the records of those times was lost as well, and all that remains is the religious version. Also it is a great propaganda tool to keep the Kilrathi focused on improving the art of war. One other thought I've toyed with is the idea that the bugs were some bio-engineering project of the Steltek gone awry. The major flaw with this is that according to the dates from Privateer, the Steltek left this region of space loooong before the Star Gods showed up on Kilrah. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, when you look at what you just said, that kinda supports it as much as it hurts your theory. If they left such a long time ago, and it's an experiment gone awry, then that would give them time to build themselves up, etc. While this is probably highly unlikely, and while the Steltek probably wouldn't have let it get that awry, unless they wanted it to, it's still a good theory to think about on a long night or a rainy day.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Finally, the if the Bugs and the Cats fought a straight up battle the bugs would mop the floor with them. However the Cats were on their home turf, and a guerilla campaign of sorts might have some success. Especially if they were able to get some decent weapons, particularly if the Star Gods did not have an overwhelming force there. Remember the US pretty much had air superiority in Vietnam, but in the end did not fair as well as was hoped. Granted, the VC were more on par with the US in weapons than in this case, but there was a gap, which was made up for in some ways by tenacity and a willingness to make sacrafices. Also, the US government did not put its full effort into the fighting there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm...I still don't think they were developed enough to have projectile weapons, etc. I mean, have we even confirmed that they had gunpowder (or their equivalent) there? I don't remember reading about that, but I might have missed it somewhere. Sorry if I did. And I think the American/Vietnam to Bug/Kilrathi analogy isn't quite stable. My idea of the bugs coming at Kilrah is the same as the fights in StarGate. This ships buzzing overhead, with all the people and creatures running like scared dogs. I mean, I'm sure they were developed, probably slightly past us at that stage in time (you said you had it figured around 1300BC right?) I'm pretty sure we had gunpowder by then though...no completely though, I need my books from school. Geez. Thats sad. Middle of summer vacation and I'm wishing for text books.


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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
 
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Shane

Spaceman
Nope, no gunpowder weapons around that time on our planet. For the Kilrathi and weapons, I was thinking more along the lines of them stealing guns and stuff from Bug bases, not actually having developed laser weapons. That, or they had a sympathetic source of these kinds of weapons, like my nebulous third party race. Though then you start running into possible artifacts on Kilarh, that we've never heard anything about.

My Steltek pondering involved the Steltek creating the bugs, perhaps as some type of guardian species. However, they didn't quite work out the way the Steltek planned. (Another Frankenstien type story, or Jurassic Park, in a way) Anyhow, the Steltek realize their mistake, but since the bugs are sentient, the Steltek can't actually bring themselves to commit genocide, so they banish the bugs to a region of space that is unoccupied by sentient life. I'm borrowing from Terry Brooks in the Elfstones of Shannara in a way, if you've ever read that. Somehow Kilrah is the equivalent of the Ellcrys, the means in which the Demons are locked in the Forbiding in that book. Or if that reference doesn't mean anything to you, think of Superman II and the Phantom Zone. Not quite the same, but along those lines. The bugs have been locked out of our galaxy and have had 4000 years to be bitter about that fact. But that's way out there on the possiblity scale.

[This message has been edited by Shane (edited July 19, 2000).]
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Sorry about the chaotic nature of the post below, but I've had a lot to respond to after two days, so you'll just have to cope
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Wrong. It's very relevant. Reember that phone game Shane was talking about? (I figured you'd say something along those lines, so this one's actually thought out).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I pity you didn't think about what you are arguing about. It doesn't matter if it's the same story or not. Would you argue that the Ancient Greeks were incapable of keeping records simply because the story of Troy is only partially accurate?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Yes, we know some, but I don't think that we got to actually examine Kilrah in a scientific way to verify all the stuff they told us, nor did we get to access their main records that were on Kilrah. While I have no doubt we learned alot from the kitties, I think we just touched the iceberg, 'cept it's more like we just touched Antartica (SP?).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And who says their main records were only on Kilrah, anyway? I'm confused here. How can you possibly think that, in this day and age? Hundreds of universities worldwide even now work on getting all those classics (the ones with the expired copyrights, that is
) up onto the internet. Once on the internet, these things spread like a disease. So why would the Kilrathi only have records on Kilrah? Given the fact that it would be impossible to access a file realtime from another planet, we can only assume that other Kilrathi planets - especially that moon in the Kilrah System, where the Sivar Cult is centred - will have records. This is particularly true in this case, because the Kilrathi appear to have even preserved the stone tablet on which the Prophecy was written. What did you think we were looking at in the WCP intro? An old video from Kilrah?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>I mean, I understand that planets dont' just change over night, and all that, but I mean, 4000 years. That's a long time. Nothing compared to the life of a planet, but a good deal of evolution and planet evolution can happen in that amount to time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
4000 thousand years is nothing. With the exception of a few river deltas and volcanic islands, the world 4000 years ago was identical to that which even now sits outside your window.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>The point I was making there, was that we should've known what solar flares do. The pulse that opens a wormhole and the pulse that a solar flare gives off cannot be that damn close on the scale. No matter how short, no matter how powerful the flare. Theres got to be a noticiable difference that was overlooked.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're still missing the point. Let me say it again (and again, and again). It doesn't matter what they thought this was. If it had any effect apart from just being odd, they would have noted it. They didn't. Therefore, we know that the pulse did not affect anything. This being the case, we also know that it did not, nor will it ever, affect the planet of Kilrah.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Point taken. But that base wasn't there when they were hear 4000 years ago, so what are you saying? They had scouts here before the wormhole? Which doesn't make much sense, because how would they radio home? There was no wormhole to send transmissions through, no jump gate, no relay stations Confed's discovered. Subspace would've taken way to long to get there. Or what Mad Hatter's talking about, they had bugs here in the middle of the war, about the time the base was created???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's exactly what I'm saying - this is not the Bugs' first visit after 4000 years. In fact, for all we know they could have visited as recently as in 2680. Of course, nobody would have even noticed the energy pulse then - it would have been written off as an error, just as it was written off this time.

Shane, I have no idea what the Occam's Razor is supposed to signify
. As for the pulse, see above.

We actually know that the Nephilem do not have sensors any more advanced than us. This is based on the fact that they used scout craft in exactly the same way we did - which they wouldn't need to, if they could detect a hidden base from halfway across the system.
And while it is quite likely (certain, I would even say) that they do have charts of the area, a moon orbitting a gas planet on the outskirts of the system does not constitute a primary target when your forces are as limited as the Nephilem forces must have been in the first hours after the initial jump.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>The only problem is the second gate doesn't seem to be anywhere overly strange, just in a binary system.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Apparently, the system's binary configuration allowed the Nephilem to harness the stars' energy to open - and keep open - a wormhole for an indefinite period of time. It would appear that they are quite capable of creating their own jump points - though the one in WCP is nonetheless just a normal jump point.

I'm not going to even touch your sequence, because it's rather silly. You're completely misinterpreting the Kilrathi. If they saw the Bugs leave without a fight, they wouldn't think that it's because they're unworthy. They would assume that the Bugs felt that they couldn't handle the Kilrathi.

At any rate, the Kilrathi records would have mentioned that the Kilrathi race is so powerful that even the Gods From Beyond the Skies had come to offer the Kilrathi fealty, and to aid them in driving off the evil Star Gods. After all, this is the very stuff religion is made of.

Also, the Bugs are perfectly healthy for Humans to be around. It is only when a Nephilem vessel "dies" that the disease starts spreading - much in the same way the Nephilem would probably die if they hung around dead Humans for too long. It's a simple matter of the immunity system not being capable of handling a new strain of bacteria. It's happened in Human history every time the Europeans ran off to a new continent, y'know.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Same with Kilrathi pilots. Probably how they discovered that hidden base.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If they had waited to do that, then there's no way in hell that they would've gotten there fast enough. Their first prisoners were taken at the Sivarist outpost (or later), which was attacked around 2200. That leaves them four hours to extract those memories, figure out what they're looking for, and dispatch a strike force. So by the time the intelligence is gathered, they're left with just two hours to get to 7.4. Not enough.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>They were intelligent enough to communicate with the Bugs huh? Well, considering how quickly the bugs learned our language, I find that kinda hard to believe. Don't? the Kilrathi at the time were probably using something equilivent to the Ewok dialect (sorry to bring them into this, but I need to for this analogy). Like Threepio said, they were using a very primitive dialect, but he could derive what they were saying.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Kilrathi at that time were at least as advanced as the Humans were, language-wise. And they undoubtedly had writing - several different types of it, in fact. Dammit, these aren't baboons we're talking about. It's a civilisation which was undoubtedly as sophisticated as that of Earth. And at that time, Humans were pretty damned sophisticated.
And of course it was the Nephilem who initiated contact - but it still takes two to talk.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>I agree with Shane to a degree, but I don't know where this other race could've come from. Maybe it's the same one that build the pyramids in Egypt and make Stonehenge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whaa... you mean, HUMANS drove off the Nephilem in 1300 BC?


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>As for the outside race. Like I said it may be something the Kilrathi did not know about or was lost to history. Much like the library at Alexander was destroyed maybe, much of the records of those times was lost as well, and all that remains is the religious version.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bullshit. The religious version would undoubtedly include this other race of gods that came to aid the Kilrathi.

Oh, and the Steltek are quite definitely out of the equation. They left more than a million years ago. Any race that they would have engineered would either be A) Extinct, or B) Far superior compared to the Nephilem.

[This message has been edited by Quarto (edited July 20, 2000).]
 
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Assassin

Spaceman
Ok, not to piss anyone off here, but all of the speculation posts have a million "maybes" in them. And I don't know WC like LOAF and others do, but the arguments to support these theories seem really weak. However, on the flip side, even the most knowledgeable fan here is pretty arrogant to think he knows where the WC creators were and weren't going with the Nephilum plot. History is easy to manipulate to fit your stories, so Shane/Knight/other's theories are hard to prove completely, or even mostly, wrong.
 

JoeyRP

Spaceman
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Assassin:
Ok, not to piss anyone off here, but all of the speculation posts have a million "maybes" in them. And I don't know WC like LOAF and others do, but the arguments to support these theories seem really weak. However, on the flip side, even the most knowledgeable fan here is pretty arrogant to think he knows where the WC creators were and weren't going with the Nephilum plot. History is easy to manipulate to fit your stories, so Shane/Knight/other's theories are hard to prove completely, or even mostly, wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could'nt agree more! Thus as History goes ...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>He who conquers the past, commands the future.
He who commands the future, conquers the past.
Kane
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Turn me loose, Colonel.
This is what I live for!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 

Knight

Spaceman
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Assassin:
Ok, not to piss anyone off here, but all of the speculation posts have a million "maybes" in them. And I don't know WC like LOAF and others do, but the arguments to support these theories seem really weak. However, on the flip side, even the most knowledgeable fan here is pretty arrogant to think he knows where the WC creators were and weren't going with the Nephilum plot. History is easy to manipulate to fit your stories, so Shane/Knight/other's theories are hard to prove completely, or even mostly, wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, well, I guess we'll all see when the next WCP comes out, won't we? Oh wait, damn. Forgot about that. We won't see one until OSI opens their damn eyes. Hm...guess that kinda leaves alot of loose ends. If you don't want to have fun trying to tie them up, then why are you in this thread? (I know it wasn't the original intent, but that's bascially what it's evolved to.)

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
 
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Shane

Spaceman
Yes, this is speculation. I agree with Knight we are kinda doing it for fun, especially since the chances of an explanation from Origin/EA or whomever you wish to blame are very small. I'm pretty sure I'm not entirely right, but it's kinda fun to play with the evidence given and have a little spirited debate. That being said...

Quarto, I don't know the total size of the force that came into Kilrah, but there probably were enough to spare a capship and some fighters to head out for the other planets in the system, that they knew about last time they were in that part of space. Their detection equipment may have been good enough to find the base during a pass over the moon. Or the Bugs got lucky and a convoy or something was en route to the base at the right time. I have a hard time buying the idea that they scouted the place out ahead of time, since those gates seem to be a lot of work. It could be assumed that Intel looked through the K-105 records and found no other similar signature. But maybe not, the ICIS report came out pretty quickly.

The Steltek. Like I said, it'd be kinda cool in a circular sort of way (tying all the WC elements together), but I know the dates are wrong, so I don't consider it a real possibilty, which I mentioned at the time.

The records on Kilrah. Remember the Empire of Kilarh was, in many ways an authoritarian state and the center of the empire was Kilrah, that's why the destruction of Kilrah lead to the surrender of the Empire, even though it could have continued the war. The way the Empire was portrayed in the games and books, most things were run from Kilrah. It is only conjecture on my part, but I can see that type of government not widely dispersing information to other places. Also it isn't clear that things like Archaeology and the social sciences were supported or pursued by the Kilrathi. Yes there are individual's and their memories and there likely are some records in other places, a complete collection of items probably did not exist off of Kilrah. For example, if some kind of bomb went off in Rome and wiped out Vatican City, the Catholic church would not cease to exist, but many of its records and artifacts would be lost forever. They only exist there. You may have a picture of an object, but that is not the same as having the object, since you can't conduct the same types of tests on it.

Outside influence. Maybe the Nephilim have changed culturally in 4000 years, that is quite possible. It still seems odd that they came to Kilarh, challenged them to battle, then said, "That's the best you can do?. Never mind. But keep working on it, one day we'll be back." It sounds more like a sour grapes kind of taunt. They wouldn't tell the Kilrathi they were too occupied with another foe. Instead they would tell them they weren't worthy, but they'd come back. Just a wild thought, the Cult of Sivar did not appear until after the Nephilim. There seems to be some mild confusion around Sivar. Most sources say that he is the Kilrathi God of War (SM2 docs, among others) while the ICIS mentions the historical prophet Sivar. I'm assuming two different entities, same name. Either way, the Cult of Sivar didn't come into being until after the Star Gods incident. Might Sivar (the god) have been some Kilrathi hero who achieved god-like status because of his feats surrounding those events? This is doubtful since it doesn't seem that much fighting occured, at least according to the myth. Could Sivar be an offworlder? I don't know if you read the WC4 novelization, but Blair had become part of Kilrathi religion, at least among Melek's follower's, in only a few short years. And, if I recall correctly they were making him look slightly Kilrathi, at that point. They could have done the same thing in the past. It still doesn't explain the worthiness thing. I still think that is Kilrathi pride, not wanting to admit that another fought their battles for them, but no proof.

Ockham's (or as the ICIS and some other's spell it, Occam's) Razor. It's used in science and I saw it a lot in Evolutionary Theory. It basically says "if two theories explain the facts equally well then the simpler theory is to be preferred." It doesn't always turn out to be right, but that is a whole other argument, and part of the reason I left Anthropology before I finished my PhD and went into computer engineering. That and the pay's better


Disease. Didn't play SO yet, so what is going on with the potential for disease is a bit vague. I do know that disease did more damage to New World populations than all the guns ever did. If you look in the literature on the topic, there are estimates that dieases accounted for 90% reductions in New World human populations. This is based on arachaeological evidence at major sites throughotu the Americas mostly seen in the rapid population delcine and the appearence of disease on bone. Some diseases are easy to detect in skeletal remains. Their are also records of explorers passing through areas that they describe as vibrant villages or even cities and then records from just a few years later by other explorers passing through the same areas and finding only a few living people and lots of abandoned buildings. So yes, you are right about disease.
 
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Knight

Spaceman
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shane:
Yes, this is speculation. I agree with Knight we are kinda doing it for fun, especially since the chances of an explanation from Origin/EA or whomever you wish to blame are very small. I'm pretty sure I'm not entirely right, but it's kinda fun to play with the evidence given and have a little spirited debate. That being said...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for agreeing.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR>Outside influence. Maybe the Nephilim have changed culturally in 4000 years, that is quite possible. It still seems odd that they came to Kilarh, challenged them to battle, then said, "That's the best you can do?. Never mind. But keep working on it, one day we'll be back." It sounds more like a sour grapes kind of taunt. They wouldn't tell the Kilrathi they were too occupied with another foe. Instead they would tell them they weren't worthy, but they'd come back. Just a wild thought, the Cult of Sivar did not appear until after the Nephilim. There seems to be some mild confusion around Sivar. Most sources say that he is the Kilrathi God of War (SM2 docs, among others) while the ICIS mentions the historical prophet Sivar. I'm assuming two different entities, same name. Either way, the Cult of Sivar didn't come into being until after the Star Gods incident. Might Sivar (the god) have been some Kilrathi hero who achieved god-like status because of his feats surrounding those events? This is doubtful since it doesn't seem that much fighting occured, at least according to the myth. Could Sivar be an offworlder? I don't know if you read the WC4 novelization, but Blair had become part of Kilrathi religion, at least among Melek's follower's, in only a few short years. And, if I recall correctly they were making him look slightly Kilrathi, at that point. They could have done the same thing in the past. It still doesn't explain the worthiness thing. I still think that is Kilrathi pride, not wanting to admit that another fought their battles for them, but no proof.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok, here's another idea. What if the bug fleet they sent in was recalled, due to some troubles at home? I mean, like a rebellion, or something like that? That might have caused the bugs to bring back any fleets they had exploring, including the ones in Kilrah. So the bugs promised to return (the 'after our troubles are over' part was probably lost in the transcripts, or in the passing on from generation to generation), and they might have decided Kilrah wasn't worth the trouble, and to try different routes, since we've pretty much deteremined they were halfway across the galaxy or more.

Hm...I wondered why you sounded so educated when you first started posting, unlike most newbies (no offense). Probably because you have a PhD
I'd like to get one of them someday...if I could stand the 2 more years of high school I have to go through, I'd probably consider it more


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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
 
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Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Oh, I know the Nephilem force is quite large, Shane. But remember, that gate can't let too many ships through at once until the reinforcing structure is built. So, in the first hours after the invasion, the Nephilem force would in fact be quite small. And there are 7 (-1) planets in the Kilrah System, plus more than a few moons. That means that unless they know exactly what's there, the 4th moon of the 7th(6th), outermost, planet will not get much attention at this stage. Unless, like I said, they know what's there.
Oh, and as for K-105 records, it might not have even occured to them to check. Especially since the records wouldn't bring much attention to such "errors".

The Empire of Kilrah was an authoritarian state in theory only. In reality, the Emperor was just barely clinging to his throne, with seven Clans plotting his overthrow. Now, in their pride, each Clan had probably set up its own capital outside of Kilrah. So, not all records were lost with Kilrah.
This especially applies to the Cult of Sivar. If Vatican was destroyed, then indeed all their artifacts would be lost. But if Florence was destroyed, Vatican remains, in spite of the fact that they're both in Italy. The Cult of Sivar, you see, is based on one of the moons of the Kilrah system, not on Kilrah itself. Again, it's not a twenty-year old video recording that we're seeing in the WCP intro. Do not fail to understand the implications of that. The Priestesses of Sivar did not keep all their records and artifacts on Kilrah. And I suspect that it was the Priestesses that wrote most of the old Kilrathi records, much in the same way early European history was written mostly by monks.

Sour grapes? I think not. It may well be that the original Nephilem party wasn't there to fight, but merely to study. A scouting party, if you will. I don't know why there was a 4000 year delay, but I do not think it was a matter of another race. Just think about it - what in hell would keep them busy for 4000 years? Only two options here -
1) The Nephilem are, and always were, pathetic weaklings, and it took them 4000 years to finally win their war. This option, as you can immediately see, is absolutely ridiculous. The Nephilem invaders are not weaklings. This leads to option two...
2) The Nephilem are strong, but their opponents were much stronger. It took 4000 years to defeat them because the opponents controlled a vast empire of valuable resources, and enormous manpower. However, this option indicates that the victorious Nephilem are now in control of this vast empire of resources. But personally, I do not think that the Nephilem are that powerful. You might say that the size of the fleet gathered on the other side of the Kilrah jump point would indicate that they are. I don't think so though. If they really had limitless resources, then we wouldn't have seen one wormhole, but ten, or twenty.

Sivar. There has only been one Sivar. The war god and the prophet are the same person, in the same way that Jesus Christ is also considered the son of God, and in the same way that Buddha is almost a deity in his own right. And Sivar was not a Kilrathi or alien hero who achieved god-like status for his feats. He was a historical prophet.
I haven't read the WC4 novelisation, but note that the Kilrathi process of demonisation only applies to those who defeat them, or at least are not defeated by them. It is for this precise reason that I think that any offworlders in the Star Gods incident would have been deityfied along with the Nephilem. Oh, and the way they made him look? It's symbolic. At least I haven't heard anybody claiming that Christian saints really did have big yellow circly things around their heads. The Kilrathi are not converting Blair into a Kilrathi - that wouldn't make sense. Just think. If Blair was a Kilrathi, and he fought against the Kilrathi, then he was a traitor, and as such his great deed is nullified by his treachery. Therefore, they cannot Kilrathify him. And as I said before, the last thing the Kilrathi would do in such a situation is call themselves unworthy. When another person defends you in an argument, do you think that it's because he thinks you can't defend yourself? Of course not. You assume that it's because he respects you.

In that case, I am not from the Ockham's Razor school of thought. My school of thought is as follows - if two theories explain the same facts, go for the one which makes more sense. There are never two theories which explain the facts equally well, simply because one of them must be wrong.
 
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