What is with the Nephilim?

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Knight: I think there's a big flaw in hypothesis. If the bugs did come by jump points then you're looking at a 2000yr journey just to reach Kilrah. Now that doesn't seem right since the chances of finding something at least as interesting as the cats in such a long journey would be pretty good.

BTW I was playing WCP again (for the first time with a joy stick
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) and on the mission where you have to reconnoiter the 2nd ship killer I got a big surprise. I showed up at the nav point and there was the ship killer but something was awfully wrong. It had a huge growth sticking out of it's side! It looked like it had developed an enormous tumor! I checked the object camera and the tumor turns out to be an asteroid that somehow the game engine had placed in almost the same spot as the ship killer. After gawking for a bit I hit the autopilot to fly home and in the little scene where you see your wing do a flyby my wingman actually flew through an asteroid!
I don't know about you but WCP's got some pretty dodgy asteroids or should that be ships?!
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No, no, Penguin, you got your critique of Knight's theory wrong
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. If the bugs had arrived at Kilrah 4000 years ago and only got back now, then we're looking at 4000 years in both directions, not 2000. That's a total of 8000 years, which makes his theory much more implausible
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Knight: I for one don't think the Nephilem were space-farers 8000 years ago. Unless their society has long stopped developing (which is clearly not the case, judging from the ship tweaks between WCP and SO), they would have some pretty fancy technology by now. And yet, they didn't have anything that advanced.

Penguin: That's an interesting theory. Indeed, there's something to it, considering the troubles Hernando Cortez had with the Aztecs (I highly recommend to anyone who can find it, that s/he ought to read a book by Diaz... Bernal Diaz, I think... I can't remember its title, but it was the memoirs of one of the soldiers who went along with Cortez, and on two earlier expeditions, too). Just because the Nephilem were so advanced doesn't mean that they wouldn't have found the Kilrathi intimidating - especially considering that they might have understood Kilrathi honour enough to know that the Felines will never surrender. Also, we may be looking at the element of surprise here. The Nephilem may not have expected the Kilrathi to assemble an army, being savages and all. Then, when the army had assembled, they looked at it, said "Eep!", and decided that they'd best get going.

At any rate, I like your explanation for the assembly of all the Clans, though I suspect that even in this scenario, it was just a small group of Kilrathi Clans - it would be insane to assume that the Kilrathi had means of planet-spanning communication back then. However, if we assume that the "Star Gods" religion had an effect on the Kilrathi similar to that of Islam on the Arabs, it does seem quite likely that the doctrine was later accepted by the rest of the Kilrathi society, once the Empire was formed. It would be interesting to see what Kilrathi religions didn't survive the Empire.

However, your 4000-year-gap explanation still isn't adequate. It's true that they could have simply forgotten - or chosen to forget (wasn't that what happened with the Vikings in Vinland?). But why would they suddenly remember? I mean, even if it's just the sort of archaeological exploration of the past as we are doing now (we meaning humans, not us specifically)... well, yes. I mean, if you look at an ancient record and find that your race had found a noteworthy alien race, and then promised to come back and fight, you might feel a bit intimidated. You would assume that the aliens were also preparing, and if you don't strike first, they might get ya.
Nonetheless, this doesn't explain why now. 4000 years is way too long. Given the technology levels the Nephilem must have had when they first found the Kilrathi, I do not see it to be possible that they went through a 4000-year-long process of destruction and rebuilding. The Dark Ages lasted roughly a thousand years, but in reality they lasted a lot less, and they didn't affect the entire civilisation. Even at the height of the Dark Ages, you would have found many a scholar in parts of Europe. Thus, it's not comparable to what would have had to be a 4000-year-long civilisation-wide blackout.

I've just come up with an interesting theory, though. I don't think it's quite worth posting here yet (haven't got it all clear), but it involves the fact that we've got no proof that the Nephilem are the Star Gods. I'm sure Shane (aka "The Man Who Claims There Were Two Alien Races"
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) will be pleased with this one. Yes, he will be most pleased.
 
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Quarto said:
Knight: I for one don't think the Nephilem were space-farers 8000 years ago. Unless their society has long stopped developing (which is clearly not the case, judging from the ship tweaks between WCP and SO), they would have some pretty fancy technology by now. And yet, they didn't have anything that advanced.

Well, since we know that this was probably a scout party that came to Kilrah 4k years ago, we could probably assume they had limited tech then, maybe just an exploritary (SP?) party, which would be why they didn't want to fight the Kilrathi, so they told them they were not worthy to fight, and that they'd return one day. During the period of time they were gone, their race evolved all the tech. And Quarto, for all we know, they could have been space-farrers for a LONG time, they've just fairly recently (3-5k years ago) evolved weapons of mass destruction, such as the Ship Killer, Devil Ray, etc, they probably started out exploring with primitive ships. Like I said, they could have been in space for a LONG time, like maybe evolving froma space-going bacteria (which could be proven by the bacteria on Mars, given enough time, it would eventually evolve (a few more million years, but hey, the uni's been around for a few billion so I think they'd have time.) Anyway, that's where I get my theory. To sum it up, they sent out a scout party a LONG TIME AGO (8000 years), a basic, un-armed party, that discovers Kilrah, 4000 years into their trip. Seeing how the Kilrathi wanted to fight, I'd say that the bugs gave them a few lines to bring their religious side out, make them feel they were unworthy, then leave, and begin their trip home. Once home, their race has evolved warships and jump gates, so they use a gate to get to Kilrah, hense WCP.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
 
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Oh, and maybe they just develop tech slowly. I mean, we got all kinds of stuff in only 100 years, planes, space going vehicles, weapons of mass destruction, etc. They could develop tech much slower than us, but be alot older, and been exploring space alot longer.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
 
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Don't forget, the Kilrathi have been space faring for much longer than the humans. Yet humans developed in space much faster than they did and have an equal technological level during most of the war. If this slow technological evolution is possible with the Kilrathi, why not with the Nephilium?

TC

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CAG of the Blacklance HQ
"Canadian and proud of it"-TC
You are in no way entitled to any WC games, if you don't have them its your own damn fault.
 
Knight: It is possible that the Nephilem develop their technology slowly. Still the idea that the Nephilem would send scouting parties on several thousand year missions simply doesn't sound plausible. Sure we have no idea of how long the Nephilem live and we lack detailed information about their tech, motives and social makeup but establishing an empire that spans a distance that takes several thousand years to navigate is realistically inconceivable (admittedly I have to accept that it's possible - this being science fiction and all). It would take thousands of years to travel the worlds, send communications, swap newly developed tech and respond to crises.
In short I think my main objection is that why would you worry about something that takes several thousand years just to get to you. Surely you have more immediate concerns?

Quarto: Thanks for pointing out my error. It's interesting that despite making the error I still got my point across the way I wanted it to.
As for the 4000yrs, without more info, I'm simply not going to be to come up with something definitive. There could be any number of reasons why the bugs chose to stay away for so long. Perhaps they discovered richer pickings else where. Perhaps they decided that they were perfection and that everyone should come to them, not the other way around. Or perhaps the scout party picked up a disease from the cats & unwittingly brought it back to their homeworld, precipitating a disaster which took thousands of years to recover from.
 
TC: You're quite wrong, in fact. The Kilrathi got space flight in 2334 (from the Shata), at which time mankind had already fought its first inter-racial war (against the Yan). See Timeline.

Knight: First, if they hadn't developed weapons of destruction at an early stage, they would have never developed them (because this indicates that they saw no need for them... whether they be big sticks or laser rifles, weapons are always one of the first invetions of any violent species).
Second, a species cannot develop in space. It can survive, yes. But in order to develop, a species would need a source of food. Now, in order for a species to achieve a population of more than five (
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), this source of food has to be pretty large. Therefore, we know that the Nephilem developed planetside.
Furthermore, their planet was a normal, Earthlike planet, with an atmosphere breathable for Humans (ref: WCP boarding actions).
Also, why would their party challenge the Kilrathi to combat if they weren't armed? Do you walk up unarmed to an armed soldier and dare him to shoot you?
Finally, yes, they could have developed their technology slowly. As Penguin said, anything's possible in SF. However, we have some evidence that this is not the case. I am referring to the fact that the ships we fought in SO had already been upgraded. It took the Nephilem a few weeks to adapt their ships to those pesky Humans. What makes you think it would take them 4000+ years to develop jump technology?

Penguin: Yes, a disaster of some kind is possible - but remember, the Nephilem were spacefarers by then. Any disaster that affects one planet would probably leave the others unaffected, because they'd have advanced warning.
 
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you know something is wrong with you guys like its something you guys have never played WC and you guys are confused and this confusion has made confuse I have no proper idea what are you guys talking.Damn it I wish I knew more about WC just like you guys do
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Quarto, we know that the ships they sent through the first time were scout ships also. Probably some of the "older" ships they have, so they wouldn't have the newest tech. When they opened the gate at Proxima, they ment business, so they sent in their newer ships, to deal with the new threat. I just said they developed slowly, I never said that they sent their best ships through first, then sent in "upgraded" versions next.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
 
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I think they may just eliminate enemies that they consider threats to them, insted of this predator-like idea, they could just blow up the ships that they consider that could attack them, so when they first meet the kilrathi, they thought that they where harmless to them, so they where "unworthy", but maybe the bugs noticing the destruction of kilrah (maybe there could really be a relation bettwen the bugs comming and the destruction of kilrah), they noticed that the kilrathi had become to a level that could be dangerous to them if they where attacked...
So they could just look for races that could be a menace to them and go attack, instad waiting they to come...
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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...
 
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Here are my two cents about the first contact of the Nephilim and the Kilrathi and this whole "unworthy" thing
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:

The first time the Nephs visited Kilrah they were on the lookout for an alien race to fight (or that could become a threat to them, if you will). From their part of the galaxy they sent out several scouting parties to different areas of space including Kilrah and some other more coreward regions of space. After they made contact with the cats they received information (from another scouting team) that there are more vital threats in the more coreward parts of the galaxy (Tolwyn reference!) and left Kilrah to go hunting in these areas telling the Killies: "You are not worthy dealing with (right now). We will come back later.".

The Killies (not knowing about these other alien races) believed that it was their fault not to be taken seriously.

The reason for the Bugs to return right now? I dunno. Perhaps just pure coincidence.

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No one will hear your cry of death in the void of space
 
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Knight: We don't actually *know* anything about them. All that stuff about them being a scouting force, it was pure speculation. Note that this "scouting force" included two Ship Killers while the Proxima force had none.

I'll leave the "unworthy" thing for later
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[This message has been edited by Quarto (edited July 30, 2000).]
 
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Quarto said:
Knight: We don't actually *know* anything about them. All that stuff about them being a scouting force, it was pure speculation. Note that this "scouting force" included two Ship Killers while the Proxima force had none.

I'll leave the "unworthy" thing for later
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[This message has been edited by Quarto (edited July 30, 2000).]

Ah, but we DO know that they were a scouting party. Finley said so, and if I am correct, most of what's said in the games is canon, and therefore should be taken seriously. I mean, speculating that they knew kilrah was destroyed, and they came to finish the job, why would they bring in an entire fleet, when a scouting party can handle the job easily? It's like using a firehose in a watergun fight.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
 
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You misunderstand the idea of canon, Knight. Back in WC4, Admiral Tolwyn said that it was the Border Worlders that were causing all the trouble. Was that canon?

What a character says is not necessarily canon, because they can be wrong, or they can simply be lying through their teeth.

At any rate, I'll just repeat myself now:
Me said:
Note that this "scouting force" included two Ship Killers while the Proxima force had none.
And that, I believe, tells you everything. Speculating that they knew about Kilrah, why would they bring those two buggers in? If you were going to mount an attack, would you send your most powerful ships/weapons ahead to scout? Just doesn't make sense. Not only do you risk losing them, but also you're tipping your hand way too early.
 
Actually they sent one in to lead the way. And if you were going into the jungle, wouldn't you take some kind of big gun, and not just small arms? Basically the same, but on a larger scale.

And when Science Division says something, doesn't that normally mean something? I can see Tolwyn trying to cover up the BL, but that's a bad analogy none the less. Lying to cover up and making an approximation are not the same things Quarto. Now Finley could have been wrong, but if what they sent in the first time wasn't a scouting fleet, then what did they send in through Proxmia? A welcoming party? I mean, a dreadnaught, something in the mist of 60-100 transports, ungodly amounts of Hydras and Carriers, those numbers add up to a fleet, especailly since they were massing. Now, two ship killers, a few cruisers, and a couple of carriers are hardly what I call a battle fleet when in comparison to what we saw in SO. Wouldn't you agree on that at least?

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
 
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That size is more of a Recon in Force - most often used for Search & Destroy missions. You fight with what you have and be quick about it.
On the 2,000-year bug expeditions, It could be possible that they hibernate during mid-flight. We don't know their lifespan yet, do we?

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Turn me loose, Colonel.
This is what I live for!
 
If you were going into the jungle Knight, would you bring an ICBM with you?
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Better still, if you were going to scout out an unknown system, would you bring a pair of Behemoths along, just in case there's a planet that needs demolishing?
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When the Science Division says something, it only means something if they know what they're talking about. Lt. Commander Finley knows no more about Nephilem tactics than we do. And the point of bringing up Tolwyn was just to demonstrate that not everything a character says is true.

What did they send into Proxima? An invasion force. But ask yourself this, Captain. How did that force get to Proxima?

Oh, and as for the Kilrah fleet itself. What we saw in WCP clearly wasn't the entire force (less than half of it, probably). Or did you sleep through that part of the SO fiction where ISDN reported vast damages throughout the Vega Sector? What caused all that damage? A few cruisers and a couple of carriers? Methinks not.

JoeyRP: An RIF force is usually based around a light carrier. I don't think RIF is what we were looking at here.
 
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Killer Wave: Again possible but if the bugs do attack races based on whether they are a threat, why didn't they simply wipe out the cats to stop them from becoming a threat? Also why do they refer to humans as 'non-aligned' when it must be apparent that the Confederation has a more capable combat force than the Kilrathi?

Quarto: A disaster may not necessarily be limited to any specific geographical area. For example sometime on the 160-70s AD in the Roman Empire, legionnaires returning from Parthia (modern day Iraq) distributed plague all throughout the empire. The plague decimated the population to the point that it never fully recovered & contributed substantially to the eventual fall of the empire (this was a process that actually spanned a millenia). Supposing the bugs picked up a plague from the cats, said plague could have been spread throughout the population, causing serious damage & leaving the bugs at the mercy of their more immediate neighbors.
Considering that the bugs brought a dreadnought, 2 ship killers (or should that be fleet killers?) & Sivar knows how many other potential kills
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I think it's safe to say that their fleet was an invasion force, not a scouting party.
 
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Penguin: Yeah, but the Romans didn't have sophisticated decontam procedures. We don't know much about the bugs, but it's reasonable to assume that they do protect themselves against potential disease sources.
 
Penguin said:
Killer Wave: Again possible but if the bugs do attack races based on whether they are a threat, why didn't they simply wipe out the cats to stop them from becoming a threat? Also why do they refer to humans as 'non-aligned' when it must be apparent that the Confederation has a more capable combat force than the Kilrathi?

I think that the bugs would kill the kats, i'm not sure that the bugs are the star gods, but if they rally are, im tryng to find an explanation for why they didnt killed them
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Maybe because the kats couldnt even leave their planet at that time, so why bother? Maybe they had something else to deal with....
Again, if the bugs are the star-gods, i think that "unworthy" and "non-aligned" are not the same. In fact the bugs did fight confed, they didnt turned their backs on it and walked away.



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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...
 
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