My Tolwyn Essay
- Thread starter Bob McDob
- Start date
Ok well I must say that what tolywn did could be seen as necessary and not unnecessary, it all depends on one's point of view.
Originally posted by Nemesis
You just condemned democracy and pluralism. (Let’s hold those reins a bit tighter, shall we?)
ok maybe I am the only one, but i fail to see why condeming democracy is a bad thing, it is flawed system based on 2 very flawed assumptions.
the flawed assumptions I refer to is that people are capable of effective self government and that a million men are wiser than one man, neither of which has ever been proven to be correct and i am willing to bet never will since, well they aren't, at least in my opinion. just look at all the idiots who walk down the street everyday, do they know or have any inkling as to what is best for the economy? what is the best course to follow in foriegn affairs? which research projects derserve money, and which do not? what the best way to educate our young is? whether or not the government should raise or lower taxes? the answer of course is no, only educated people who know something about these topics can actually have a big enough clue to know what any of the things i listed are about, and yet it is everbody who decides these issues in a democracy, i say bring back Plato's republic and put it into practice, allow the educated and intelligent to rule and the world would be a better place.
LeHah
212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Good points that should be made but your calling the loss of Behemoth his fault is hardly fair. Behemoth was lost due to extenuating circumstances from a certain Kilrathi spy, and attacked (in a cowardly fashion, I'd like to add) by Kilrathi cloak fighters. I think the moment those little buggers dropped out of cloak, Tolwyn knew it was all over. Still, I fail to see how it was his fault (though I suppose making the firing of the Behemoth a purely clandestine operation and having so few capital ships and thus, fighters could be seen has his fault. Still, I don't think all the fighters in Confed's 3rd Fleet would've helped Geoff against a cloaked tactical strike.)
I'd argue the point of Tolwyn's age but I'm not quite sure of the time elapsed between WC4 and Prophecy off the top of my head.
Yes. Brutal but effective.
Considering the stuff we've seen and read Tolwyn do over the years, it's easy to say he doesn't take anyone's shit. Tolwyn says "I have to win this or it's over for me" and plows through his opponent with nothing short of devine agression and irreligious impunity. Sure, the Pilgrim fleet was pretty damned hard to kill, but I have complete confidence in Tolwyn's complete lack of diplomacy to pull a "Grand Admiral Thrawn" on her sorry religious ass.
Guess you're a fan of the Roman disciplinary measure known ominously as 'Decimation?'
Regardless of who's at fault Tolwyn threat was unfeasible and wouldn't have worked if attempted. Any backlash against innocent Pilgrims, would only have inspired a massive rebellion. Not to mention sapping resources needed elsewhere. This would jeopardize Confed's real aim: survival against the Kilrathi.
LeHah
212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Pilgrims were, for the most part, docile people after the Pilgrim War. Many were exiled to McDaniel's World and two other planets. Any type of "rebellion" action would easily be able to be put down by Confed. Worst case scenario: Pin-point orbital bombardment.
There's nothing cowardly about this.
I can name one guy who led military campaigns until he was 90yrs old. He wasn't particularly successful, but the fact that he survived so long indicated he was doing something right.
Originally posted by LeHah
Considering the stuff we've seen and read Tolwyn do over the years, it's easy to say he doesn't take anyone's shit. Tolwyn says "I have to win this or it's over for me" and plows through his opponent with nothing short of devine agression and irreligious impunity. Sure, the Pilgrim fleet was pretty damned hard to kill, but I have complete confidence in Tolwyn's complete lack of diplomacy to pull a "Grand Admiral Thrawn" on her sorry religious ass.
Tolwyn must've pulled a "Grand Admiral Thrawn," since otherwise how do you explain WC4 & WCP?
Also I'm assuming a "Grand Admiral Thrawn" is like what Hannibal pulled on the Romans in the early part of his career?
LeHah
212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Pulling a "Grand Admiral Thrawn" refers to the Timothy Zahn character from his Star Wars novels. He was a tactical genius that was able to pull sudden devastating victories from certain defeat.
I was saying Tolwyn would just do some stunning manuvers and whip the crap out of his opponent is all.
I was saying Tolwyn would just do some stunning manuvers and whip the crap out of his opponent is all.
That reminds of some stuff I read while studying Persian history. The Persians were helping a Turkish warlord lay claim to some city in the middle of Asia. Their enemies were the Uzbeks and the Persians won enough battles that it seemed like victory was inevitable. Then on the last battle IIRC there were some 40,000 Persians and only 3000 Uzbeks, yet fighting with the grimest desperation the Uzbeks won through and routed the Persians seizing sweet victory against the jaws of defeat. Now that is the stuff of legend! 
It wasn't neccessary because we kicked Nephilim carapace *without* slaughtering billions of our own. We won, we kept our freedom, and we kept our losses to a minimum, all by rejecting Tolwtn's plan. Oh, and if you want to argue that the human race was improved genetically by what Tolwyn planned, then, please feel free. I may not have studied Shakepeare, but I *have* studied genetics, and I do so love a chance to show it off.
Which would, of course, explain how the democraies are the worst performing countries in world in the economic, politcal, and social sense. That's wht one party states and absolute monarchies ruled by a self selected elite have throught this century beaten the democratic states in every major conflict.
Oh, wait that didn't happen, did it? The most militarily powerfull country in the world, probably the most powerfull country that has ever existed in human history, is a democracy. The economic power and wealth is in those counties rather than in the monarcies and one party states. The First World War, the Second World War and the Cold War were all won by the largely democratic states rather than by the those ruled by a small elite. Hmmm, maybe there's something to be said for democracy after all.
No, a war crime and a crime against humanity. Why do you think Tolwyn ended up with prospects of either the firing squad (WC4) or a lifetime in prison putting out for some big guy? (TPOF novel)
As for pulling a "Thrawn", keep in mind that Grand Admiral Thrawn was beaten in the end.
And besides, I didn't see Tolwyn pulling a Thrawn when he got his butt kicked by rag-tag bunch of Border Worlders, when the Behemoth got blown up, or when when the Kilrathi cruisers were going to nuke Earth. If it hadn't been Kruger and Jukaga, anyone on Earth who wasn't wearing SPF 15,000,000 sunblock would have been in for a rather bad day. Oh, and I wasn't talking about Arestee's fleet, but the Pilgrim fleet in the Pilgrim Truth synopsis which was light years ahead of what Confed had. That would have kicked Tolwyn's butt old school style.And if we had already wiped out their colonies in response to what Aristee did, they wouldn't have had any reason to hold back on us, would they?
Best, Raptor
But it wasn't, was it? The Nephilim came, and we kicked their butts handily. And while we're talking "what if", how about this aggressive race came while we were ravaging our population with the Gen-Select and fighting amoung ourselves. We would have been up the proverbial creek without a paddle.
Best, Raptor
Best, Raptor
Raptor, you're correct. I didn't think about that
Alien Race: We're coming to kill you all!
Confed: Get lost, we're doing it ourselves and don't need your help. Come back some other time.
Alien Race(Confused) Oh, ok...
Tolwyn just wanted to preserve mankind. To let it survive. He just chose inhuman ways to realise it.
Zim
Alien Race: We're coming to kill you all!
Confed: Get lost, we're doing it ourselves and don't need your help. Come back some other time.
Alien Race(Confused) Oh, ok...
Tolwyn just wanted to preserve mankind. To let it survive. He just chose inhuman ways to realise it.
Zim
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
The Paktahns were to distract Blair and company, IIRC.
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
IIRC, the Kilrathi despise humans spying for the Kilrathi because they betray their race (even though to the Kilrathi's advantage). The Hobbes-thing was constructed by Thrakhath himself, I doubt they'd call that an despisable act.
Ever read any of Stephen Ambrose's books on WWII? Based on what you said I think if you haven't you'd very much enjoy Citizen Soliders, among others. The HBO Band of Brothers mini-series is adapted from one of his books.
As for pulling a "Thrawn", keep in mind that Grand Admiral Thrawn was beaten in the end.
I'm not sure how much you can blame Tolwyn for the Battle of Terra. Yes, he didn't have a lot of faith in Grecko's plan, but Tolwyn admitted he thought it might work. (p.263) And in the end Tolwyn was in command of the force that did drive the cats back from Earth. I'll grant that he got damend lucky, but the position he found himself in was not one of his making. I think the fact that he had to sit back and watch several Confed worlds get nuked because the politicans failed Confed (to his way of thinking) is really what pushed him over the edge.