My Tolwyn Essay

Originally posted by Mekt-Hakkikt
IIRC, the Kilrathi despise humans spying for the Kilrathi because they betray their race (even though to the Kilrathi's advantage). The Hobbes-thing was constructed by Thrakhath himself, I doubt they'd call that an despisable act.
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I think a lot of regular Kilrathi, like Kirha, would. Some of those closer to the seat of power were a little more flexible with their honor. Jukaga comes up the false peace which many of the Clan Leaders, when first hearing of it, raise such a roar, that Jukaga wonders if they might attack him. Yet the Emperor and Thrak agree to it. The Kilrathi use (or if I'm playing WCIII atemmpt to use :) ) Bioweapons, which doesn't quite fall into the honorable combat category. I see Hobbes decpetion as another non-traditional (by Kilrathi standards) probably dishonorable ploy by the Imperial family. I think Jukaga was right, we are a corrupting influnce on the Kilrathi.
 
Originally posted by LeHah
Actually, in one of the novels (I wanna say Action Stations), a Kilrathi leader is musing his extreme displeasure in being in the company of a spy.
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In the first WCAtv episode (thanx to LOAF for finding them), the Red & the Blue, the Kilrathi captain of the carrier blows a terran spy out of the airlock!!! after he has delivered secret training codes to him, saying that
"a man without honour has nothing left to live for."
 
That is ture, Jukaga was not beloved, nor do I think had he been succssful in his coup, he would have held the throne for long. However, the Emperor and Thrak did go along with his ideas. Jukaga's family in general never seemed to fit in. They seemed more intelectual and liberal in their thinking than the rest of the clans, particularly as shown in Action Stations.
 
You're right, the Kilrathi leaders regard Kilrathi in the intelligence business as not as honourable as the fighting warriors.
Now I remember that in FC it is written that the imperial spies who observe members of the other clans or other rivals to the throne are especially disliked.
 
Originally posted by Raptor


)

As for pulling a "Thrawn", keep in mind that Grand Admiral Thrawn was beaten in the end. :) Best, Raptor [/B]
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actually thrawn wasn't beaten, he was assasinated, 2 totally different things
 
I wonder though if he would have survived if he hadn't have been assisnated. The loss of the clone facilities would have been difficult to recover from. He was a very cool character though. In more ways than one. No one really like that in WC. Thrak was sort of that way in the WC2/SO1/SO2 games. He got his hat handed to him in each one, but it turned out it didn't matter because those were mere diversions. I'm not sure how much of that was truth and how much was "Gee I really don't want grandpa to vaporize me like he did dear ole dad." :p
 
I have the impression that Thrakhath was a bumbling fool (he certainly wasn't that much of a hotshot pilot ;)). I think from what some people say of the novels, if it wasn't for Kats like Thrakhath, we'd have lost the War. :)
 
The kats could've had the finest commanders and it wouldn't matter. OSI would always ensure there would be a way to win, otherwise there'd be no hope for a profit making sequel.
 
I don't think Thrakhath was anywhere near as incompetent as we've been lead to believe by the post-war Kilrathi who demonized him.

He personally lead the Kilrathi to near-victory for *15 years*, and before that was responsible for commanding a very succesfull fleet. He captured Deneb, retook some of Vega after his predecessor lost the sector entirely and was regarded as an equal by Admiral Tolwyn and the JCS.
 
Originally posted by Wedge009
I have the impression that Thrakhath was a bumbling fool (he certainly wasn't that much of a hotshot pilot ;)). I think from what some people say of the novels, if it wasn't for Kats like Thrakhath, we'd have lost the War. :)
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How dare you to insult Prince Thrakhath? ;)

Personally, I also think that Thrakhath was not so stupid. After all in most novels (except the WC3 one) he mostly senses when the Terrans lay a trap for him but other considerations (e.g. the revenge for Vukar Tag) forbids him to act totally logical.

Neither does the Emperor appeal to me as very dumb, although maybe a bit less cmpetent than the prince.
 
I was spoiled by WC1 where if I did well so did Confed. :) SO1 & SO2 were frustrating because they were closer to real life. I'd win, but instead of Confed winning in Deneb they lost. I still think Thrakath downplayed those defeats I handed him (which is natural) but he did earn many of his victories. I liked the way End Run and the early part of Fleet Action were headed and hoped that that would be the direction of WC3. Of course the end of Fleet Action, pretty much reset things back to the end of SO2 and in truth made them even worse. For a long time I didn't like WC3 because I didn't like the backs to the wall aspect of it, but over time, especially with WCIV, I grew to appreciate what they did in WC3.
 
Thrakhath is certainly not portrayed as stupid in the books I've read, rather one of the more intelligent Kilrathi. A fine understanding of politics is not something you'd expect from a warrior.
 
Well, I've only read End Run, so I don't have much to go on in the way of novel backgrounds.

Originally posted by Mekt-Hakkikt
How dare you to insult Prince Thrakhath?
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I do because I can, putty tat. Yes, I know AI can never compete, but he's as easy to kill as Seether. :)
 
Originally posted by Wedge009
I do because I can, putty tat. Yes, I know AI can never compete, but he's as easy to kill as Seether. :)
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Actually easier since his Bloodfang isn't as good as the Dragon.
 
First off folks, sorry about going this far back into the thread, but I couldn't post yesterday. I couldn't access the CIC during the hour or so I have for online stuff. I'll try and answer everything I missed in this post.

Originally posted by Shane


Ever read any of Stephen Ambrose's books on WWII? Based on what you said I think if you haven't you'd very much enjoy Citizen Soliders, among others. The HBO Band of Brothers mini-series is adapted from one of his books.
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My reading tend to swing between the very dry scientific books/journals/papers I have to read to stay up to date for my job, and trashy sci-fi/fantasy/horror novels in my spare time. :) I'll check out the books you mentioned if I can find copies, though. The reason I believe democracy is a better system than the others though, is that I've had a chance to see a couple of others first hand while I was growing up. They were nothing but disaster for the countries involved.

I'm not sure how much you can blame Tolwyn for the Battle of Terra. Yes, he didn't have a lot of faith in Grecko's plan, but Tolwyn admitted he thought it might work. (p.263) And in the end Tolwyn was in command of the force that did drive the cats back from Earth. I'll grant that he got damend lucky, but the position he found himself in was not one of his making. I think the fact that he had to sit back and watch several Confed worlds get nuked because the politicans failed Confed (to his way of thinking) is really what pushed him over the edge.
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I'm not saying that Tolwyn was to blame for the battle of Terra (though one has to wonder what would have happened if Grecko hadn't had the rank to over-rule all the doubters and bull ahead with his plan) but rather pointing out that Tolwyn can't magically win battles. As the fact that he couldn't stop the Kilrathi cruisers moving in to nuke Earth, the loss of the Behemoth and what happend in WC4 all show, he can't pull a "Thrawn" simply by being there, so I'm kind of dubious about the idea that Tolwyn will save the day no matter what.

Re: Napolean's point about Thrawn being assasinated rather than beaten. He was assinated by his *own* assasin, which is saying something. Thrawn was assisinated *because* he was beaten at his own game. Leia managed to convince the Noghiri of the truth right under Thrawn's nose, turning his most effective agents into a fifth column in his own ranks. Not only that, the last third of the series was pretty much a non-stop series of defeats for Thrawn. Considering the loss of the cloning tanks, everything else in Mount Tantis, the death of C'Boath, the defection of the Nogiri and the loss of Delta Source, not to mention the general battle situation at Bilbringi at the end, it's not like Thrawn was cut down in his moment of triumph.

Re: the use of cloaking fighters to destroy the Behemoth being cowardly. If it's cowardly to use cloaked fighters to destroy a planet killer deployed by people you're at war with and protected by an entire carrier battlegroup, then how much more cowardly is it to use cloaking fighters to destroy refugee transposrts and drop bio-weapons on civilians?

Best, Raptor
 
I agree, Thrakhath is no Thrawn, but he sure knew his tactics.

Was he behind the whole 'Hobbes' stuff?

Zim
 
I'm not saying that Tolwyn was to blame for the battle of Terra (though one has to wonder what would have happened if Grecko hadn't had the rank to over-rule all the doubters and bull ahead with his plan) but rather pointing out that Tolwyn can't magically win battles. As the fact that he couldn't stop the Kilrathi cruisers moving in to nuke Earth, the loss of the Behemoth and what happend in WC4 all show, he can't pull a "Thrawn" simply by being there, so I'm kind of dubious about the idea that Tolwyn will save the day no matter what.
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Firstoff, please, please, please, everybody stop saying Thrawn. Compare Tolwyn to somebody real. Comparing Admiral Tolwyn to Admiral Thrawn is like comparing apples to a complete lack of anything.

Secondoff, no one is claiming that Tolwyn automatically wins battles -- simply that he's a brilliant strategist who is credited with winning many battles. And just like *any* commander, he's not responsible for everything that happens -- all real battles involve a huge amount of luck.

This anti-Tolwyn stuff sort of bugs me, though -- okay, you really really really hate him for some reason... but that's no reason to go back in time and claim everything that he did before WC4 was wrong. It's like when the Aces club refused to have the SRA in their stories because they hated a club called the SRA... it's madness!
 
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