If a new WC was made, should it be based on the movie or current game series?

....but yeah those will do, I mean the lengths they had to goto in order to get you to feel something for the characters were things like Spirits kamikazee. To be honest I could never care less in WC1 if a wingman died because you knew they'd be back in the add-on packs. And in Privateer plot was the driving force, can you honestly say you identified with your character in Privateer?
Wing Commander 2 would be one of those rare and special cases but I'd like to point out that the characters had been designed to be more like 3D rendering or even artwork than cell shading/ cartoon.
In cell shading you have one colour filling an entire section so the character which is easy to identify with....

zeldacube3.jpg


becomes....

celda16.jpg




Now I'm sure using the WC2 method of animation a character that is more easy to identify with than the above Link would be possible.
Personally I'm one of the few supporters of Celda since Zelda games have always been about plot over characters but in Wing Commander this isn't the case.
 
That's just very poorly done, though. The former is a bad 3D rendering and the latter is obviously done to be 'cute' rather than a serious character. Heck, the 80s animated series of Zelda looks better than *either* of those two screenshots...

I would say that the character was the absolute most impressive thing about Privateer. Burrows *is* what gave Privateer its cult following -- he's perfectly flawed: he's a smartass, he's jerk, a misogynist, he cracks jokes instead of taking anything seriously, he acts like a badass without the muscle to back him up... and he's perfectly happy sitting back and letting somebody else save the world. He's a *brilliant* character.

Anyway, I can't think of a single scene in Wing Commander 3/4/P that had the same emotional impact of Iceman finding out his daughter was still alive in SM2... You can do a fine job with any medium.
 
That's just very poorly done, though. The former is a bad 3D rendering and the latter is obviously done to be 'cute' rather than a serious character. Heck, the 80s animated series of Zelda looks better than *either* of those two screenshots...
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Well firstly thats a VEEEERY odd statement, ignoring that that version of adult Link is the most impressive I've ever seen it wasn't a 3D rendering, it was running in real time on the Gamecubes hardware at Space World 2000

Anyway as for being done to be cute thats probably fair enough but we've seen mock ups of far less cute versions of cell shaded link since then but unfortunatley its still singular colors, thats the DEFINITION of cell shading, cell shading doesn't just mean give it a cartoon look you know, you couldn't do Privateer, WC2 etcs cutscenes using Cell Shading.


Anyway, I can't think of a single scene in Wing Commander 3/4/P that had the same emotional impact of Iceman finding out his daughter was still alive in SM2... You can do a fine job with any medium.
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Since I'd entirley forgotten about that until you mentioned it yet Vagabond death, the feeling I got after seeing the blood pour from Angels chest, the shock and amazement at seeing Tolwyn leading the Black Lance, the Death of Dallas and being on the edge of my seat all the way through Blairs time on the 7th tower of the wormhole, the effect of Hobbes defection all being right at the front of my mind I have to disagree BUT theres an important thing to note right here....

you played WC1, 2 and Privateer on release I came to those after playing the other games, infact WC3 was my first true introduction to a game with character interaction, is it possible that its just not as moving when you've seen something similar pulled off in a much more realistic fashion? For me I'll always want real actors, even of Prophecys quality but 3D animation would always come above cartoon style.
 
Well firstly thats a VEEEERY odd statement, ignoring that that version of adult Link is the most impressive I've ever seen it wasn't a 3D rendering, it was running in real time on the Gamecubes hardware at Space World 2000
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Uhm... that's the definition of a 3D rendering. The Gamecube rendered that object.

Anyway as for being done to be cute thats probably fair enough but we've seen mock ups of far less cute versions of cell shaded link since then but unfortunatley its still singular colors, thats the DEFINITION of cell shading, cell shading doesn't just mean give it a cartoon look you know, you couldn't do Privateer, WC2 etcs cutscenes using Cell Shading.
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Uhm... cel shading is the definition of a cartoon look. :) Cartoons are shaded cels -- the complexity of this shading is up to whoever's designing the game. Nintendo making a cheap kiddie game that's cel-shaded doesn't mean that *all* cel based animation looks like that... just like WC3 doing a really good job with FMV didn't make *all* FMV really good.

Since I'd entirley forgotten about that until you mentioned it yet Vagabond death, the feeling I got after seeing the blood pour from Angels chest, the shock and amazement at seeing Tolwyn leading the Black Lance, the Death of Dallas and being on the edge of my seat all the way through Blairs time on the 7th tower of the wormhole, the effect of Hobbes defection all being right at the front of my mind I have to disagree BUT theres an important thing to note right here....
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With the exception of Angel (which was still done very poorly technically) these all fall into the category of "*should* have been emotional" for me. But they weren't -- they were all poorly done. Vagabond -- Blair and Maniac's old friend, Catscratch's idol, etc. -- gets shot and nobody cares five minutes later. Dallas' fighter blows up, you see a plaque and then there's a party. Tolwyn's leading the Black Lance? *DUH*. Hobbes is evil? Lets not wonder why or even care about it for more than a minute!

you played WC1, 2 and Privateer on release I came to those after playing the other games, infact WC3 was my first true introduction to a game with character interaction, is it possible that its just not as moving when you've seen something similar pulled off in a much more realistic fashion? For me I'll always want real actors, even of Prophecys quality but 3D animation would always come above cartoon style.
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Yeah, WC3 is "more realistic" than WC2. </Sarcasm>
 
I'm confused, I thought there was a lot more emotional talk over vagabonds death than spirits, and d'uh?! *sigh*

What was unrealistic about WC3?

I'm completley miffed at your POV but then I'm miffed at people who watch anime :)
 
Originally posted by Pedro

Since I'd entirley forgotten about that until you mentioned it yet Vagabond death, the feeling I got after seeing the blood pour from Angels chest, the shock and amazement at seeing Tolwyn leading the Black Lance, the Death of Dallas and being on the edge of my seat all the way through Blairs time on the 7th tower of the wormhole, the effect of Hobbes defection all being right at the front of my mind I have to disagree BUT theres an important thing to note right here....

you played WC1, 2 and Privateer on release I came to those after playing the other games, infact WC3 was my first true introduction to a game with character interaction, is it possible that its just not as moving when you've seen something similar pulled off in a much more realistic fashion? For me I'll always want real actors, even of Prophecys quality but 3D animation would always come above cartoon style.
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I think the biggest thing that you're forgetting is that WC1 didn't have as many of those moments that you're talking about. WC1 had only the most basic plotline, and the game didn't allow for very much character development. This had nothing to do with the way the characters were shown (live-action or animated) and more to do with the way they were presented in-game. There wouldn't have been much difference had they been real talking heads instead of animated ones.
WC2 was change, and there were bits in there that made me sit up and take notice. You had the death of Downtown, the death of Spirit, and the revelation of the traitor. And I had to crack a smile a couple of times, such as when Angel reported that both Hobbes and Stingray had been busted for fighting, and when Thrakhath said he let Hobbes live since Hobbes was one of Thrakhath's few relatives who hadn't tried to kill the Prince.
Some of the animation was pretty hideous (the kiss sequence comes to mind), but by and large it was successful.
 
I'm confused, I thought there was a lot more emotional talk over vagabonds death than spirits, and d'uh?! *sigh*
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Not that 'what people are talking about!' is any indication of anything, but there was just as much sobbing over Spirit's death as there was over Vagabonds. And Spirit's was absolutely necessary to her character and plot -- they just kind of decided to get rid of Vagabond for no reason.

What was unrealistic about WC3?
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They're computer games where you fly jets in space to fight giant cats. Pretty much everything about any Wing Commander game is 'unrealistic'.

I'm completley miffed at your POV but then I'm miffed at people who watch anime
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I can't explain why that is -- because I promised Weasel I'd stop telling people they're stupid.
 
Originally posted by Pedro
Yes.... only rocket scientists spend their days watching anime ;)
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Wow, yeah, I completely forgot that there's a link between what you enjoy and how smart you are.

How's the non-sentient brick variety hour these days, anyway?
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


Wow, yeah, I completely forgot that there's a link between what you enjoy and how smart you are.

How's the non-sentient brick variety hour these days, anyway?
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Wow! I didn't mean to start all that!;)

LOAF: I'm confused. Would you actually like to see a cell-shaded WC? I know I would, but I'm seeing a lot of argument over it's technical viability, not so much whether or not it would work in the game. Personally, I love anime, I love manga, and when I was thinking about Cell-Shaded characters I know I wasn't thinking about looney-toons looking things, but more adult-looking characters-- Be they good, old-fashioned Disney-esque rotoscope-looking(like snow white) or be they more stylized anime/manga looking like Ghost in the Shell or Princess Mononoke. Personally, I like this approach, because I think the models actually emote better than in-game models attempting to be realistic— I don't think the average computer-owning joe has good enough video hardware to run very realistic in-game models. Pedro: Flame away, the newbie doesn't mind.
 
Well, I'd like to see any WC... I think that thus far the cartoon WCs have done a far better job of creating realistic characters instead of cliche'd caricatures... if a another animated WC would follow that current trend, I'd prefer it to live action :)

(Although a WC anime series would be pretty neat on its own... <G> It wouldn't solve the problems inherent with actors (the limited 'interactivity), but it'd look cool)
 
Originally posted by Lelapinmechant

Personally, I like this approach, because I think the models actually emote better than in-game models attempting to be realistic
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Heh heh.
In-game models are still a fairly dicey issue with most PC games. The models used in C&C Renegade are a fairly good example. I kept wondering why Locke didn't fall over with all of the odd leaning he was doing.
Still, WC wouldn't have in-game models no matter what was used. In order to have in-game models, the game engine would need to be able to create and animate human figures, and since WC is a space fighter sim, you're probably not going to be seeing any of those...

My own personal feeling is this: Either rendering (Final Fantasy games) or cel animation (Xenogears) is fine so long as the animators know what they're doing. FPS engine models are fine as well so long as the animators figure out how to make the models move realistically (it happens, but not often). Try to avoid showing hands unless the stupid things actually work (it gets annoying seeing characters in games wave their hands around when said hands consist of fists with fingers painted on).
 
I kept wondering why Locke didn't fall over with all of the odd leaning he was doing.
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Ehh, you have to wonder the same thing about Tanya (?) in Red Alert 2, though, and she was live action :)

Westwoods writers are brilliant at writing excuses for people to lean over things and show off their cleavage <G>
 
Originally posted by junior


Heh heh.
In-game models are still a fairly dicey issue with most PC games. The models used in C&C Renegade are a fairly good example. I kept wondering why Locke didn't fall over with all of the odd leaning he was doing.
Still, WC wouldn't have in-game models no matter what was used. In order to have in-game models, the game engine would need to be able to create and animate human figures, and since WC is a space fighter sim, you're probably not going to be seeing any of those...
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Hi! I havn't really much knowledge so far as different game engines are concerned: What is it about a space-flight 3D engines that wouldn't allow for in-game models while walking around in the carrier? And is it possible they could employ two engines in one game-- the one for in between missions, the other for the missions themselves?
 
Wow, yeah, I completely forgot that there's a link between what you enjoy and how smart you are.
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Well.... yes, quite obviously there is, fair enough its one of those rules with exceptions but take bookworms for example (the ones who read books without bright pictures and the word spot on every page), the chances are they're fairly smart, people who read tabloids not so much. People who enjoy chess are usually smart and those who play buckaroo not so much ;)
People who recreate by taking drugs are usually pretty dumb although thats the chicken and the egg. People who spend all day window shopping....
Anime falls right in there with drug use :)
 
Originally posted by Lelapinmechant


Hi! I havn't really much knowledge so far as different game engines are concerned: What is it about a space-flight 3D engines that wouldn't allow for in-game models while walking around in the carrier? And is it possible they could employ two engines in one game-- the one for in between missions, the other for the missions themselves?
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Well, as a long time member of the Beta Testing Team for a space-sim that does just that, I hope I can answer with some small whiff of authority...*grin*.

The problem with using the same engine is basically a matter of scale. Performance of a flight engine (eg. the Prophecy engine) is based around a number of factors, but essentially the main one is the "complexity" of a model and it's textures. That is why older computers simply can't run today's space-sims - the models are far more complex (compare the blocky, chunky fighters of WC3 with the smoother and more realistic models in Prophecy).

Adding a new layer of complexity - for instance, modelling decks within a ship model and personnel models within a ship, increase the complexity of a model markedly. For instance, take the Midway. It's a massive model, and all you see in the game are the outside surfaces. Now, just say the Midway has five decks within it's inner structure - and that's being conservative for a ship that size, I would imagine. Each inner deck needs a full set of surfaces - floor, ceiling, walls, plus coridoors, etc. You are multiplying the complexity of an already complex model a hundred-fold. Add to this the fact that player models and non-player-controlled personnel would have to be added to make the scenario realistic, and all of this would have to be continually processed, even if you couldn;t see it from your Panther orbitting around the Midway, and it becomes unfeasible, on today's computers at any rate.

So, as you suggest, you can use a second engine. This causes problems in terms of continuity. For instance, you dock your Panther with the Midway and decide to wander the ship. Space-flight engine exits and interior engine fires up. The problem is that when you launch from the Midway again, one of two things can happen.

1) The space flight engine is reactivated and the variables (such as what ships are in the region, the condition of the Midway, etc.) are randomised. In other words, evenm if you spent ten hours walking around the Midway, there's no guarantee that repairs have been made or missions have been completed by other wingmen, etc....

or

2) When the space-flight engine activates, all variables are identical to their state when it was terminated.

In other words, as long as the space-flight engine is not running, space does not exist, get processed, the outside universe ceases to operate. This becomes especially a problem in multiplayer - you leave the space-flight engine and activate the internal ship engine. What if your opponent outside decides to destroy the ship you're in? You've no way of knowing, and if he succeeds, it has no effect, because you are still in the internal ship engine. Continuity problems all of the way.

I'll stop now.

And yes, it was BC3000AD, before anyone asks. No flames, please.
 
Originally posted by Pedro
Anime falls right in there with drug use :)
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Pedro, anime is a drawing *style*. There is no set of laws saying that anime will always have a stupid plot, just like there is no laws saying that other styles of cartoons will have stupid plots. To say that only fools enjoy anime is... well, highly irrational.

In the meantime, I found Spirit's death much more moving than Vagabond's. Heck, I found Shadow's death more moving, and we only knew her for four missions :p.
 
Law no.... does it happen in practice, well it seems to :) I'd be happy to be proved wrong since I've been taking in a lot of new trends latley and enjoying them but anime is not one of them. In any case you loose a very powerful tool which was my original point, a good actor can say a 1000 words from the look on his face, when someone dies you feel that a person died not a mess of paint, I've seen very realistic 3D characters which come close to that point but not cartoon, anime or anything else.
 
Well.... yes, quite obviously there is, fair enough its one of those rules with exceptions but take bookworms for example (the ones who read books without bright pictures and the word spot on every page), the chances are they're fairly smart, people who read tabloids not so much. People who enjoy chess are usually smart and those who play buckaroo not so much
People who recreate by taking drugs are usually pretty dumb although thats the chicken and the egg. People who spend all day window shopping....
Anime falls right in there with drug use
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But none of that makes any sense.

Reading books or playing chess doesn't make you intelligent. If that's what entertains you, it'll make you entertained. If you're doing it because you want to 'look smart' it'll make you pretentious. Smart people often read books because they're entertaining or interesting -- not because it's some kind of amazing smart drug.

I think you'll find that vast amounts of people enjoy vastly different things, none of which have any bearing on how intelligent they are. (And if you want to be stereotypical, it's generally the 'nerds' who you've pigeon-holed as smart for reading books that love anime, anyway...)

Law no.... does it happen in practice, well it seems to I'd be happy to be proved wrong since I've been taking in a lot of new trends latley and enjoying them but anime is not one of them. In any case you loose a very powerful tool which was my original point, a good actor can say a 1000 words from the look on his face, when someone dies you feel that a person died not a mess of paint, I've seen very realistic 3D characters which come close to that point but not cartoon, anime or anything else.
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What kind of anime have you tried? There's a vast range of it out there -- although it's hip and popular to import giant robots and naked women, anime exists for pretty much every genre of 'live action' television show. A whole lot of it is very engaging.
 
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