Confed or Border Worlds

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF

I think what Americans need to think about before worrying about the crazy European grudge against the US is that every single European country, given the chance, has a crazy grudge against every single other European country.
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That's 'cause we're the old continent, so we had plenty of time to create discord and fight several wars with other countries. :rolleyes:
Fortunately, the attitude has changed over the last decades, and it's getting even better with Europe's constant efforts to unify (cf common currency, Euro, a significant leap towards unification).
 
Originally posted by Bob McDob



Half of the remainder say "FRANCE SUCKS!!!!!" and when you ask the why, they say..."uh...they SURRENDERED in WWII! EVHAL!!!!!". The other half don't know where France is.
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yep most americans are either complete idiots when in comes to geography or are complete morons when it comes to dealing with other countries, apparently sometime between WWII and the present day the idea that america is great and can do no wrong and if people dont like us they cannot have a good reason not to like us, evolved, and frankly it is scary as hell. When a nation f*cks around with the affairs of other countries for 40 years, it should expect them to be at least mildly POed, yet apparently the american public does not understand that concept (i could go into a long rant on how many of the current problems in the middle east, and i am talking about ones of people hating the us as well as the ones of them hating each other, were caused by the anti-communist paronoia in the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's but i will not today).

Ohh and just in case anyone wants to know I am an american so dont you dare claim that i am just saying it because i am not one.
 
While it's true we have a bit of a "Big Brother syndrome," here in the States, I will say we're not the only ones.

The United Kingdom has its fair share of enemies due to its own medling for its own ends (Africa, North Ireland, Middle East, etc).
 
Originally posted by Raptor

Well, the Border Worlds were already using equipment similar to that on the Concordia (Sabres and Rapiers) and equivalent to that on the Victory (Banshees and Vindicators) back in WC:4. If they are still using equipment of that calibre in 2681, then they've pretty much frozen in time, which I would have trouble believing after the fright they were given by the Black Lance. When you're already behind, it doesn't make much sense to stand still when the rest of the universe is racing ahead. I tend more towards the theory that the Border Worlders are not so much at the same place as they were in WC4, but rather at the same place *relative* to Confed. Their fighter tech wouldn't have closed the gap in any huge way, but its feasible that they would have kept pace.
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I could see that happening. As Confed upgrades to Vampire and Panthers, the BW get the Excaliburs and Thuds. It's probably safe to say that the BW still has some of the Black Lance's Dragons laying around somewhere as well as some Bearcats. Most of these craft are slowly being shuffled away from the front lines as more Vamps and Panthers are produced and shipped out. Lots of these older craft are being moved into the possession of the Reserves or insystem security forces.
 
Originally posted by I'm thinkin...


I could see that happening. As Confed upgrades to Vampire and Panthers, the BW get the Excaliburs and Thuds. It's probably safe to say that the BW still has some of the Black Lance's Dragons laying around somewhere as well as some Bearcats. Most of these craft are slowly being shuffled away from the front lines as more Vamps and Panthers are produced and shipped out. Lots of these older craft are being moved into the possession of the Reserves or insystem security forces.
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I don't know if it's safe to say that -- the Border Worlds didn't even get to keep the Intrepid... <G>
 
Originally posted by mpanty
. . . (cf common currency, Euro, a significant leap towards unification).
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Could be... but doesn't that mean that if one country suffers an economic downturn, that all others will too? Doesn't it also mean that ALL countries using the Euro are subject to the same exchange rates when dealing with America and Asia?

I'm not fully versed in the principles behind the Euro, but somehow I see those as possibilities.

Anyway, it seems that the Border Worlds are the stepchild of Confed. But what part do they play in the war against the "Nephilim"?
 
Originally posted by Raptor
Well, the Border Worlds were already using equipment similar to that on the Concordia (Sabres and Rapiers) and equivalent to that on the Victory (Banshees and Vindicators) back in WC:4.
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I was not aware that the banshees and Vindicators where Confed fighters, I always liked the idea of the WC4 game over the WC4 book. The WC4 book pretty much had the BW taking old, outdated Confed fighters while the game had the BW using thier own aircraft made by different companies than the Confed craft. you can liken this to our situation now, the us sells F-15's and F-16's and etc etc to foreign gov'ts but they also have thier own ship building facilities. The Migs, the Saabs, the Eurofighter . .. every company doesn't depend on scraps from the US, which is what I liked about the WC4 game(the BW didn't rely totally on scraps from confed)
 
The Banshees, Avengers and Vindicators were all Border Worlds built. That's why I said *equivalent*to that on the Victory. :)

I agree with you, while the Border Worlds would buy a lot of Confed made equipment (given their relative sizes and industrial ability), there are also good reasons for them to keep their own fighter programs going. Given the Border Worlders' customary paranoia towards Confed, and the fact that they got burnt for real by Confed in WC4, they probably wouldn't like to be totally reliant on Confed.

Best, Raptor
 
I would tend to think that they probably *aren't* Border Worlds built, given that the Border Worlds existed for only a few days before we see them in service...

We know, for example, that the Avenger is a former shuttle... and we see Banshees used later as trainers by Confed.
 
Well, they might not have been built in the Border Worlds, but they might well have been built in the border worlds. :D The political status of the frontier worlds is confusing as hell around that time, because as you say, the Border Worlds Union didn't exist as a political entity before their declaration of indepedence, but many of the frontier worlds considered themselves independent long before that. My personal view is that the Confed Senate would have been very reluctant to let fighters of that quality be sold from inner Confed Worlds to those on the frontier, so it seems more likely to me its something that the frontier worlds did themselves. Of course, whether they scratch modified existing craft (e.g converting shuttles into Avengers), built knock off copies of existing designs (trainers becoming Banshee fighters) or produced native designs themselves is debatable.

Best, Raptor
 
As a political union BW was new, but bot
historically and military way all planets
in border were linked so they could be called
as border worlds beacuse history and geography. Every colonized system has its own homeguard beacuse confed can´t maintain defending forces anywhere and that means bigger colonies have their own fighter squadrons and small fleets.

With little political effort smaller systems
make small military treaties and may fund
CVA-type of ship which can be anywhere needed.
They can by fighters or make them, wich is most profitable and joining their forces they make
systems harder to conqure.
Same equpment means that maintain costs are smaller and training is equal.

That means defece developement leads to large
fleet cabable to defend at least key colonies.

Of course their fighters are probably crappy and
old, but with experienced pilots old ships can
be used in battle. For example Brevster B-239,
Finnish air force used them 41-44 and Fighter
sqadron 24 scored 421.5 kills with "worst fighter of WW2" wihle losing 15 Bresters in combat.

Why? Beacuse all those pilots were veterans and
quality of pilot training was very good. They know how planes should be used and faced unexperienced soviet pilots.

In fair fight poor fighters don´t usually survive, but having initative, using traps and decoys and
ability to get the first strike means that fighter
quality isn´t the only factor affecting to outcome.
 
From my viewpoint the BWU is the good guys over the Terran Confederation.Like Capt.Paulsen said in WC4, the BWU offers help to even the fallen Kilrathi.There's another reason why i would join the BWU.
 
As to where the Border Worlds ships are built, I was doing a little surfing and came across a website that lists every ship used in WC. If anyone is interested here it is

www.uranium238.com/tce

The fighters used by the BW are made in different areas. The Banshee was the only fighter made specifically for the BW by Verier Underground. The Avenger was made by Psaab Engineering and the Vindicator was made by Murphy Labs. Where any of these maufactures are located is beyond me.
 
Originally posted by I'm thinkin...
The fighters used by the BW are made in different areas. The Banshee was the only fighter made specifically for the BW by Verier Underground. The Avenger was made by Psaab Engineering and the Vindicator was made by Murphy Labs. Where any of these maufactures are located is beyond me.
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I don't see the connection between Vearrier Underground and being made by the Border Worlds...

I would agree that it's probably they were made *in* the Border Worlds -- but it's similarly probable that Sabres, Excaliburs and so forth have all been made *in* the Border Worlds. It's not a unique distinction...
 
I'd have to agree that the BW had, at the time of WC4, probably not made many fighters. (I'm sure they probably slapped together some banshees, etc. But I speak of the majority of their "elite" fighters.)

The reason I say this, is that in 4, Pliers tells about how badly worn the Banshees are, thus making me think they're a bit older than they'd like to seem. Which would mean they were probably made during (possibly even at the end of, who knows) the Kilrathi War.

That, combined with the fact that the banshees don't seem to be in large numbers, makes me think that the Union could only have afforded to make so many, assuming your going off of the Union making them. Yet, they'd have made quite a few in the small amount of time they have been a recognized government.
 
The information I got from the web site in my earlier post said that the Banshee was made FOR the BW by Verier Underground. That's why at the end of my earlier post I stated that I didn't know where these manufacturers were located. They could be located onBW planets or Confed planets. As to the Banshee being worn out, they were designed for ease of maintance with many modular parts and access hatches. But this made them almost flimsy. If not for the stronger shield rating, the Banshee would be a flying death trap.
 
It's wrong, the site says that it was developed for the Union of Border worlds. It'd be the most magnificent, wonderful, design time ever if they managed to have at least dozens of these ships out only days after they started to design them for the newly formed Union.

TC
 
Maybe it was a design turned down by Confed and later bought or stolen by the Border Worlds, along with whatever prototypes that were made.
 
Originally posted by TC
It's wrong, the site says that it was developed for the Union of Border worlds. It'd be the most magnificent, wonderful, design time ever if they managed to have at least dozens of these ships out only days after they started to design them for the newly formed Union.

TC
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That's true, especially as you would have to add transportation and training time before you the fighters in the hands of combat pilots. Given that we faced Banshees and Vindicators right from the start in WC4, it would be stretching the timeline for the Union to have commissioned the fighters after it was *officially* formed as political entity. In that sense, they wouldn't be Union of Border Worlds built fighters, as that nation did not exist prior to it's official formation.

However, the fact that the Border Worlders had a half decent (half being the operative world *G*) to confront us with from the start of WC4 meant that they had to have been doing the ground work well before their official formation. I think it's more likely that, as LOAF said, they were built *in* the border worlds, at the behest of the leaders who were planning to form the Union. That would, in my view, be most likely on worlds that became part of the Union on its formation. Worlds that weren't sympathetic to the independence cause would have very little to gain, and a whole lot to lose from arming the Border Worlders. I

PS: Anyone who rejects Banshees or Vindicators while telling Confleet to buy Hellcats in bulk deserves to be shot. Repeatedly. :D


Best, Raptor
 
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