Confed or Border Worlds

Originally posted by Raptor

PS: Anyone who rejects Banshees or Vindicators while telling Confleet to buy Hellcats in bulk deserves to be shot. Repeatedly. :D
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Would Col.Dom please stand up? ;)

Seriously though Confed had all those Hellcats because they were surplus war material. Money had to be channeled into other things...
 
That would depend on what the Banshees were up against, I suppose. They're better fighters than Arrows or Hellcats, but they would be outclassed by Excals or Dragons.

Best, Raptor
 
Now that you mentoned. I cound simulate it with
my still experimental WC broadgame.
Results could be only rough esimation beacuse
broadgames rules are quite simple.
I will check this. Major problem is find some frends to play it ;)
 
Originally posted by Raptor

However, the fact that the Border Worlders had a half decent (half being the operative world *G*) to confront us with from the start of WC4 meant that they had to have been doing the ground work well before their official formation. I think it's more likely that, as LOAF said, they were built *in* the border worlds, at the behest of the leaders who were planning to form the Union. That would, in my view, be most likely on worlds that became part of the Union on its formation. Worlds that weren't sympathetic to the independence cause would have very little to gain, and a whole lot to lose from arming the Border Worlders.
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I don't really think there was that much forethought regarding the fighters -- especially since at least two of them seem to be Confed models that were converted for military use... more than likely they were simply the models of ships that happened to have their production facilities on worlds that ended up in the Union.

PS: Anyone who rejects Banshees or Vindicators while telling Confleet to buy Hellcats in bulk deserves to be shot. Repeatedly. :D
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I doubt that the practice of military hardware being bought from the lowest bidder has changed much in 600 years <G> It's also probable that Confed never knew 'front line' versions of the Banshee and Vindicator existed...
 
My thought on it has basically been along these lines. What became the military of the UBW was initially the local (not Confed Navy, but rather home grown) garrisons and system patrol squadrons of the future UBW worlds. My guess is that Confed allows the local systems pretty much a free hand in developing their local defenses so long as certain restrictions are followed (i.e. must have so much material minimum, and if you can afford to purchase a dreadnought, Confed Navy is commandeering it). There were probably independent ties developed between the worlds that would become the UBW, and in this state, the Border Worlds Militia would have existed before the formation of the UBW itself. They then would have contracted out for military hardware that they felt would fit their needs, such as the Banshee, which, as far as we know, is unique to the UBW.
But that's just my theory.

At any rate, the way I see things in the Prophecy time frame is this. Following the war(s), Confed probably went through a disarmament (since they wouldn't need as big of a military). They probably offered the UBW a lot of surplus equipment at discounted rates (either that or scrap it). While Confed wouldn't put something like the Excalibur up for sale, you would probably see some of the older fighters (and possibly Corvettes), including pretty much everything from WC2 and 3 (not including the Morning Star and Crossbow), and Privateer. The UBW would then be able to replace their Rapiers (ironically also a WC2 craft, mind you) with something slightly more up to date. You'd probably see a proliferation of Thunderbolt VIIs and other craft in the UBW military.
Around the time of Prophecy, the UBW probably also has access to an export version of the Excalibur, but I would guess things are largely the same, otherwise. They will probably be updating their own fighters shortly, but since Confed is just barely doing the same for its own fighter squadrons (after all, the Midway, flagship of Confed navy, doesn't even have the Vampires and Devastators on board when the game starts), it will probably be a couple more years before the equivalent home grown UBW fighters start to show up in the elite UBW squadrons.
 
Originally posted by Penguin


Would Col.Dom please stand up? ;)

Seriously though Confed had all those Hellcats because they were surplus war material. Money had to be channeled into other things...
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Well here I am :D

No, whoever decided to stock Confed full of Hellcat Vs was a genius. It is one of the most well-rounded fighters of all time.

Question: How long was the UBW around before the events in WC4?
 
While I don't agree that the Hellcat was the greatest all around fighter, it certainly is a good fighter and in the hands of an expert pilot(that would be me:D ) could hold its own in any kind of dogfight.

My personal preference for all around fighter would be the Thunderbolt.:p
 
I still don't understand what all the fuss is about with the Thud! I will admit, yes, that its guns are the scourge of the WC Universe (an incredible armament never before seen)!

However, on full, synched guns it saps juice too quick and it is pretty sluggish when compared to the fine-tuned Hellcat V :p

Dunno... I guess I just suck that bad using the Thud. I always had a problem using it!

Hellcatz r0x0r :p
 
The key to using the Thunderbolt to its full is to always fire at point blank range. It doesn't matter if a couple salvos drain your power when those salvos have converted your opponrnt to junk metal.

Regarding the Hellcat, it's not really a *bad* fighter, but it's not a great one, either. It doesn't either have the speed to dance around your enemy or the firepower to go through hom.

Junior, I agree with with you regarding the events leading up to WC4, and with the rate at which Confed was selling craft to the Border Worlds. With regards to the Border Worlds developing their fighter craft though, I don't think it's neccessarily logical to tie the BW's progress to Confed's, as they would be differant nations with differant local politics and differant defence needs.

Best, Raptor
 
Originally posted by Raptor
Junior, I agree with with you regarding the events leading up to WC4, and with the rate at which Confed was selling craft to the Border Worlds. With regards to the Border Worlds developing their fighter craft though, I don't think it's neccessarily logical to tie the BW's progress to Confed's, as they would be differant nations with differant local politics and differant defence needs.
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Well, the thinking there would be that both would have a common starting point for their latest fighter upgrades at the end of the wars. IMHO Confed, being the bigger and richer nation, with a larger R&D budget, would introduce new fighters more frequently than the UBW would. The UBW would more likely hang back a bit and wear their old fighters out for a bit longer before they upgraded to newer models.
Of course, the current Nephilim crisis could change all of that.
 
From what we've seen in the books the Border Worlders don't even retire their older planes. They just upgrade and refit them until they get shot down or fall apart, especially with Kruger's forces. I don't see how they could be building and designing their own ships since they didn't seem to have any industry to speak of.
 
Originally posted by Raptor
Regarding the Hellcat, it's not really a *bad* fighter, but it's not a great one, either. It doesn't either have the speed to dance around your enemy or the firepower to go through hom.
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I think the biggest problem with the Hellcat is that it pales in the company that it is placed. The Arrow is faster and nimbler, plus has more missiles. The Thud's got more firepower. The Longbow takes care of missions where there's lots of capships. Then there's the Excalibur, 'nuff said. Now how's the venerable Hellcat, already in its 5th model, supposed to keep up?
 
Originally posted by Ringtail
From what we've seen in the books the Border Worlders don't even retire their older planes. They just upgrade and refit them until they get shot down or fall apart, especially with Kruger's forces. I don't see how they could be building and designing their own ships since they didn't seem to have any industry to speak of.
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Er, you're confusing the Free Republic of Landreich with the Union of Border Worlds. They're quite different beasts, as the landreich broke away from Confed ages ago, and only had about a dozen to two dozen worlds. The Union Worlds has about 70 to 80 worlds, according to LOAF's map, and probably quite a bit more industry, including the ones that built the Avenger/Vindicator/Banshee and places like Speradon.

Junior: I agree that Confed would probably upgrade their planes more often than the Border Worlders do. However, taking into account the multitude of types that Confed has introduced into frontline service since the war since the war, everuthing from the F-104 onwards (F-104 Bearcat, F-105 Tigershark, F-106 Pirhana, F-107 Dragon/Lance, F-108 Panther, F-109 Vampire, F-110 Wasp) I don't see the basis for assuming that the Border Worlders would simply be using the same models they had. After all, that's an average on one new model every two years since the war, and close to half of them preceded the Dragon we see in action in WC4. Fighter technology seems to have bren moving pretty fast before the Nephilim showed up. While the Border Worlders would be moving slower, I would probably expect to see at least one or two newer models in that time. After all, as we in WC4, they already have the capability of producing fighters that are as good as confed's line craft.

Best, Raptor
 
Er, you're confusing the Free Republic of Landreich with the Union of Border Worlds. They're quite different beasts, as the landreich broke away from Confed ages ago, and only had about a dozen to two dozen worlds. The Union Worlds has about 70 to 80 worlds, according to LOAF's map, and probably quite a bit more industry, including the ones that built the Avenger/Vindicator/Banshee and places like Speradon.
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Oops, I thought the Landreich was part of the Union of Border Worlds.

Speaking of LOAF's map, is there a particular viewer I need for it? I can view it but I can't zoom in.
 
Not that I know of. The latest version of the map I saw was a giant, scrollable image.

As for the Landreich being part of the Union, they weren't in WC4, though they did give the Union some help. What happened after that is anybody's guess, but I would guess that Kruger and his people wouldn't give up their independence to join with anyone.

Best, Raptor
 
Originally posted by Raptor
Not that I know of. The latest version of the map I saw was a giant, scrollable image.

As for the Landreich being part of the Union, they weren't in WC4, though they did give the Union some help. What happened after that is anybody's guess, but I would guess that Kruger and his people wouldn't give up their independence to join with anyone.

Best, Raptor
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If I remember correctly, the Landreich was upset with the Union after the UBW became close allies with Confed. (Since the Landreich assisted them, I guess they thought they'd help them to keep Confed's foreign involvement around the Free Republic to a minimum.)

But I'll be honest in saying that I can't remember where I heard that-I think on the Board. (Which could possibly mean it's some misc. fanfic running around, but it does sound probable.)
 
Originally posted by Raptor

Junior: I agree that Confed would probably upgrade their planes more often than the Border Worlders do. However, taking into account the multitude of types that Confed has introduced into frontline service since the war since the war, everuthing from the F-104 onwards (F-104 Bearcat, F-105 Tigershark, F-106 Pirhana, F-107 Dragon/Lance, F-108 Panther, F-109 Vampire, F-110 Wasp) I don't see the basis for assuming that the Border Worlders would simply be using the same models they had. After all, that's an average on one new model every two years since the war, and close to half of them preceded the Dragon we see in action in WC4. Fighter technology seems to have bren moving pretty fast before the Nephilim showed up. While the Border Worlders would be moving slower, I would probably expect to see at least one or two newer models in that time. After all, as we in WC4, they already have the capability of producing fighters that are as good as confed's line craft.
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Point taken.
I've been operating under the assumption that the fighters on board the Midway are all relatively recent designs that were only introduced within the last few years (culminating with the Vampire and Devestator releases). The lack of such fighters in the local garrisons in SOP (iirc, the local fighters are primarily Excaliburs and Thunderbolts) seems to bear this out, although its hardly conclusive. OTOH, the units closer to Kilrah seem to have the newer fighters, since the unit that reconed the Kilrah system was flying Piranahs. My basic theory was that the Confed Navy was in the middle of a fleet-wide upgrade when the Nephilim hit, with the Midway class carrier being the focal point of the upgrade.
At any rate, I don't have my Prophecy manual handy at the moment. Are the fighter roll-out dates listed there, or are they available elsewhere? I'm now rather curious to know when the Prophecy fighters might have first become available.
While the Dragon is numbered higher than the Tigershark and the Piranah, that isn't necessarily conclusive. In the modern USAF, numbers have been finagled when necessary (case in point - the F-117) to hide what is going on (and Tolwyn may have adopted a similar tactic with the Dragon, since it was intended for a morally questionable unit). Of course, the other side of the coin is that the numbers could indicate that the Tigershark and Piranah were already in service during WC4 (or perhaps they were conceived during the later stages of the Kilrathi war, and not actually built until much later?).

Once again, are there roll-out dates available on any of the Prophecy fighters?
 
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