Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
No, France isn't in the NATO anymore. And do you really think FRance and the US could be allies
Heheh
Ahh, but we're trustworthy. [Passes name to Kilrathi masters for abduction and blackmailing Col.Dom]
Confed or Border Worlds
- Thread starter Iceman2225
- Start date
Heheh
Ahh, but we're trustworthy. [Passes name to Kilrathi masters for abduction and blackmailing Col.Dom]
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Your average American doesn't have the same crazy grudge on the rest of the world that the rest of the world seems to have on him. They think "Yeah, France must be our ally, they help us in wars and whatever, and we save them whenever they get attacked and we're called 'the Allies'".
Frances stance would be something like "Sure, we help them in wars and whatever and they save us whenever we get attacked, and we're called 'the Allies' but that doesn't make us allies because that would be fundementally wrong!"
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
Sheesh, I wasn't serious, hence the " " 
[But I was serious about France not being in the NATO anymore]
Edit: After re-reading your post I am not sure whether you were serious or not. I apologize in advance for any possible misunderstanding
" [But I was serious about France not being in the NATO anymore]
Edit: After re-reading your post I am not sure whether you were serious or not. I apologize in advance for any possible misunderstanding
Rami Sihvo
Spaceman
Probably BW:s military doctrine is similar to small
unaligned countries in nowadays. For example
Finnish military doctrine is customized to local conditions.
In war situation armed forces mission is to cause
losses to attacker so that taking over the land would
be possible but cost would be too high.
BW:s problem is similar. Population and defece
budged is smaller than Confed or Kilrathi and their
have vast space to defend. That means gurrella tactics
and mainly cheap weapons are used.
Space craft are first ones to counter attack, but battle in
space is expensive. Mines are probably used in critical
jump-points and space forces concentrate on speed to
have initative in battle. Initative is important beacuse they
have to attack when enemy is vunerable. Ex. when
coming from jump-point, in nebula, asteroid
belt and orbiting planets.
Small budget means surface to space weapons are
most commonly used defending planets. 27.th century
artiellery and SAM:s probably can fire ships orbiting
planet so fleet preparing to launch marine assault to
planet would face fire from planet side first launched
from other side of planet to prevent enemy detecting
it. Couple raidars are sacrificed to do this. Ground
based forces under enemy fleet should not fire at
first beacuse they are exposed after that.
After supperssive strikes enemy fleet would face space
forces strike. Landing ships coming in athmosphere
would face fire from ground AA companies that have
changed their first camoflaged firing place to another
and those who have specially saved for this step.
AA /Artiellery is probably armoured and highly mobile
and cabable to support ground battle. Camoflage
technicues are used and BW:s have digged lots of
shelters and caves to them.
In groundside BW ground forces are hiding widespread
to counter nuclear weapons use. Most civilians
have military education and most of them have
weapons.
Landing fleet hits first in heavy AA fire and then light AA
weapons fire below 10000 feet. Landing zones are hit
by artiellery and if planet is near vacuum sharpnell bombs
should cause heavy casualties. Foward observers are in
hidden positions and fire massive bombardments to small
areas to ensure damage.
Ground forces first job is to prevent enemy from joining
its strength and most homeguard companies join their
forces to ambush and destroy them. They use some kind
of mortars and artiellery if avaible to support battle.
Huge hot smoke missiles are fired in athmosphere to
cloud the sky and prevent space fleet to support invasion
with its weapons. Still most space weapons should be quite
poor in artiellery job beacuse sharpnell effect is missing
and foward observering fire is more difficult even
with supercomputers.
BW:s fleets fighter pilot are top notch and they flight older
and cost efficent craft than Confed pilots. I don´t agreed
about in Fleet actions Krueger pilots tactic to make
kamikaze strikes to enemy ships beacuse good pilots are
rare and their traning costs too much. Besides that there is
not much to accomplish unless you hit in bridge or
shield generator. You can accomplish more in
saving your fighter and fighting another day.
BW:s figthers are compromise from available resources
and amount needed to defend space. Quality is still first
place beacuse poor ships will not survive. Still equpment is
not thrown away, but used untill it can´t be used
anymore.
That´s why there is old ships and weapons in service.
Old ships are known throughly and pilots know how to fly
them.
In real life Finnish air force used Mig-21bis and Swedish
J-35 Draken fighters to nineties (!). In simulated battles
even J-35:s got some F-18 Hornet kills beacuse pilots
know their fighters!
unaligned countries in nowadays. For example
Finnish military doctrine is customized to local conditions.
In war situation armed forces mission is to cause
losses to attacker so that taking over the land would
be possible but cost would be too high.
BW:s problem is similar. Population and defece
budged is smaller than Confed or Kilrathi and their
have vast space to defend. That means gurrella tactics
and mainly cheap weapons are used.
Space craft are first ones to counter attack, but battle in
space is expensive. Mines are probably used in critical
jump-points and space forces concentrate on speed to
have initative in battle. Initative is important beacuse they
have to attack when enemy is vunerable. Ex. when
coming from jump-point, in nebula, asteroid
belt and orbiting planets.
Small budget means surface to space weapons are
most commonly used defending planets. 27.th century
artiellery and SAM:s probably can fire ships orbiting
planet so fleet preparing to launch marine assault to
planet would face fire from planet side first launched
from other side of planet to prevent enemy detecting
it. Couple raidars are sacrificed to do this. Ground
based forces under enemy fleet should not fire at
first beacuse they are exposed after that.
After supperssive strikes enemy fleet would face space
forces strike. Landing ships coming in athmosphere
would face fire from ground AA companies that have
changed their first camoflaged firing place to another
and those who have specially saved for this step.
AA /Artiellery is probably armoured and highly mobile
and cabable to support ground battle. Camoflage
technicues are used and BW:s have digged lots of
shelters and caves to them.
In groundside BW ground forces are hiding widespread
to counter nuclear weapons use. Most civilians
have military education and most of them have
weapons.
Landing fleet hits first in heavy AA fire and then light AA
weapons fire below 10000 feet. Landing zones are hit
by artiellery and if planet is near vacuum sharpnell bombs
should cause heavy casualties. Foward observers are in
hidden positions and fire massive bombardments to small
areas to ensure damage.
Ground forces first job is to prevent enemy from joining
its strength and most homeguard companies join their
forces to ambush and destroy them. They use some kind
of mortars and artiellery if avaible to support battle.
Huge hot smoke missiles are fired in athmosphere to
cloud the sky and prevent space fleet to support invasion
with its weapons. Still most space weapons should be quite
poor in artiellery job beacuse sharpnell effect is missing
and foward observering fire is more difficult even
with supercomputers.
BW:s fleets fighter pilot are top notch and they flight older
and cost efficent craft than Confed pilots. I don´t agreed
about in Fleet actions Krueger pilots tactic to make
kamikaze strikes to enemy ships beacuse good pilots are
rare and their traning costs too much. Besides that there is
not much to accomplish unless you hit in bridge or
shield generator. You can accomplish more in
saving your fighter and fighting another day.
BW:s figthers are compromise from available resources
and amount needed to defend space. Quality is still first
place beacuse poor ships will not survive. Still equpment is
not thrown away, but used untill it can´t be used
anymore.
That´s why there is old ships and weapons in service.
Old ships are known throughly and pilots know how to fly
them.
In real life Finnish air force used Mig-21bis and Swedish
J-35 Draken fighters to nineties (!). In simulated battles
even J-35:s got some F-18 Hornet kills beacuse pilots
know their fighters!
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I don't think the Border Worlds military was so organized.
In Wing Commander 4 the Border Worlds had just come into existence, because of the threat of Confed. Their military doctorine wasn't "superior skills against higher numbers", it was "whatever the hell we can scrape up from loyal militia units".
In Prophecy, as somebody should have already pointed out, Confed seems to be in charge of defending the Border Worlds.
In Wing Commander 4 the Border Worlds had just come into existence, because of the threat of Confed. Their military doctorine wasn't "superior skills against higher numbers", it was "whatever the hell we can scrape up from loyal militia units".
In Prophecy, as somebody should have already pointed out, Confed seems to be in charge of defending the Border Worlds.
Yep, I doubt the Border Worlds would have a big enough military in less than 10 years to hold the Nephilim back on their own. The theory that those of us who write for HTL use (and I hasten to add that this is just a theory, and were definitely not claiming it as canon) is that Confed has the primary responsibility for ensuring the security of the Border Worlds. The Border Worlds military fills a back up role, and their soldiers are offically designated as part of Confed's reserves/milita. As you'll see in the chapter that I just send over, some of their soldiers are not too happy about it, but in the military, you don't *have* to like it, you just have to do it. 
Best, Raptor
Best, Raptor
You'll probably also see a lot of surplus Confed equipment from the Kilrathi war that's been transferred from Confed Navy to the local militias, just as you often see the Air National Guard in the US using slightly out of date military jets (at least they were - anyone know if the various national guard units are still using F-4s or have they all updated to F-16s?). So I would imagine at this point in time you'd see a BW militia that is using a lot of stuff similar to what Blair flew on the Concordia and the Victory, in addition to some of their home brewed stuff such as the Banshee. Personally, I'd be surprised if they'd updated their unique fighters.
Mekt-Hakkikt: Why would you want to bother blackmailing Col.Dom? He's just a Major
Blair: "Who's orders?"
Maniac: "Someone high up in Confed. They don't tell Majors everything you know." [WC4 Intro.]
Rami Sihvo: If you were to equip an older fighter, like the Draken, with the latest missiles and radar it would be able to score kills against the latest fighters. I'll quote the example of a USAF trial in which 4 F-5 Tigers and 4 F-15 Eagles shot each other down with missiles. The superior dogfighting potential of an F-15 failed to manifest itself against the older F-5s, due to everybody getting missiled beforehand.
Col.Dom: I find it quite amusing that you think the F-16s the ANG is flying are outdated. They're better than the aircraft a lot of nations around the world are currently using.
Blair: "Who's orders?"
Maniac: "Someone high up in Confed. They don't tell Majors everything you know." [WC4 Intro.]
Rami Sihvo: If you were to equip an older fighter, like the Draken, with the latest missiles and radar it would be able to score kills against the latest fighters. I'll quote the example of a USAF trial in which 4 F-5 Tigers and 4 F-15 Eagles shot each other down with missiles. The superior dogfighting potential of an F-15 failed to manifest itself against the older F-5s, due to everybody getting missiled beforehand.
Col.Dom: I find it quite amusing that you think the F-16s the ANG is flying are outdated. They're better than the aircraft a lot of nations around the world are currently using.
Raptor leader
Spaceman
In the WC Novels aren't the Border Worlds and The Free Republic of Landriech the same government. If that is so then "Bear" is working for them and if he on their side then I'd love to be on his ship. That's another reason why i would fly for them.
IIRC, that test didn't take advantage of any of the strengths that the F-15 offered over the F-5. So the outcome was no real surprise.
At any rate, yes, it is possible for outdated fighters to take down more modern ones (just ask any American pilot who managed to shoot down a Japanese Zero shortly after America's entry into the war), but there's no reason to encourage that sort of situation.
The problem with your idea is that in most WC games (WCIV being a notable exception), a missile hit won't instantly kill a fighter. In modern air combat, if a missile hits a fighter, the fighter is pretty much out of action. Even if the fighter doesn't go down, its still not going to be in any shape to dogfight. WC fighters, in comparison, will lose structural integrity, but performance will not suffer as marked a degradation. And even if degrading does occur, the repair modules on board Confed fightercraft make it possible to repair the most serious effects of the damage (with the exception of the structural integrity).
So equipping WC older fighters with missiles won't have as big of an effect as it did with the F-5s.
I think you misunderstood him. His reference to outdated equipment was an agreement with what I said. He didn't actually state that the F-16s themselves were outdated. He merely stated that the ANG generally has equipment that is outdated when compared to the USAF. No big surprise there, and considering that (according to him) the F-4s were phased out just within the last couple of years, he has a very good point.
Raptor Leader - The Landreich and the Border Worlds are two seperate and distinct entities. Unfortunately, I'm not at all familiar with the former, as I haven't read the relevant novels, so I can't explain any of the differences.
Reading back, I saw Mekt's post! Oops! Missed it the first time! I knew you were just joking. I was just playing along. I am the real life Maniac, after all 
I'm sure my fiance' doesn't really mind me spewing her name around. Everyone who knows me eventually knows her (and it's the other way around )
As for our ANG jets being better than what the rest of the world flies... heh, how true! Let's just say we leave out some of the more "fun toys," when we sell 'em. Take for instance the F-15S, the Saudi-Arabian F-15E... may as well call it a really cool-looking T-37! HAHAHA!!
And the F-16J is more or less a T-38 with two engines! Heh!
Those anti-free market commies say we sell the noose which hangs us
I'm sure my fiance' doesn't really mind me spewing her name around. Everyone who knows me eventually knows her (and it's the other way around
)As for our ANG jets being better than what the rest of the world flies... heh, how true! Let's just say we leave out some of the more "fun toys," when we sell 'em. Take for instance the F-15S, the Saudi-Arabian F-15E... may as well call it a really cool-looking T-37! HAHAHA!!
And the F-16J is more or less a T-38 with two engines! Heh!
Those anti-free market commies say we sell the noose which hangs us
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
Originally posted by Penguin
Mekt-Hakkikt: Why would you want to bother blackmailing Col.Dom? He's just a Major
(...)
Yeah, nobody will suspect him...
Bob McDob
Better Health Through Less Flavor
Originally posted by Col.Dom
HAHA! That's funny because, ever since I was a child, I wanted to join the USAF and be a fighter pilot. Guess what jet I wanted to fly
A brick with engines?
Nah, the F-4's cool I shoot whenever I want ^_^
Half of the remainder say "FRANCE SUCKS!!!!!" and when you ask the why, they say..."uh...they SURRENDERED in WWII! EVHAL!!!!!". The other half don't know where France is.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I think what Americans need to think about before worrying about the crazy European grudge against the US is that every single European country, given the chance, has a crazy grudge against every single other European country.
Nope.
Well, the Border Worlds were already using equipment similar to that on the Concordia (Sabres and Rapiers) and equivalent to that on the Victory (Banshees and Vindicators) back in WC:4. If they are still using equipment of that calibre in 2681, then they've pretty much frozen in time, which I would have trouble believing after the fright they were given by the Black Lance. When you're already behind, it doesn't make much sense to stand still when the rest of the universe is racing ahead. I tend more towards the theory that the Border Worlders are not so much at the same place as they were in WC4, but rather at the same place *relative* to Confed. Their fighter tech wouldn't have closed the gap in any huge way, but its feasible that they would have kept pace.
Also, while the analogy of the Border Worlder's capability being that of the ANG to Confed's USAF might be valid, it's important to keep in mind that unlike the ANG, the Border Worlds military represents a sovereign nation and its government. The interests of two nations, even allies, are very rarely exactly the same, which means that politics will play a big part. On the domestic front, the Border Worlds government might have a hard time convincing its people to trust Confed to always be there, given both Confed's ambivalent relations with frontier planets in general and the specific problems that lead to the Black Lance conflict. On the international front, given the cost cutting Confleet faced post war, and the amount of work it already has to do both protecting Confed space and keeping an eye on the Kilrathi, it might not go down too well in Confed's government if the Border Worlders stopped developing their military and expected Confed to do the hard work of protecting them indefinitely. All of these things might well play a part in determining whether the Border Worlders keep their fighter industries going or not.
Raptor Leader: The Free Republic of Landriech and the Border Worlds Union are two seperate entities. The landreich Republic is a group of a dozen to two dozen worlds that are on the edges of human space, but not directly on the front lines of the war against the Kilrathi. They've pretty much been independant of Confed since fairly early in the War.
The Border Worlds Union was formed after the War, and consists mainly of frontier worlds that were loosely part of Confed during the War. They were mostly worlds that were on the frontlines. They are quite a bit bigger than the FRL, having something like 70 to 80 worlds (about half of which are on the WC
map, the rest on LOAF's map). No-one's sure what relations between the two now are like. The FRL provided some support to the Border Worlders in the Black Lance conflict, repairing and supplying fighters to the Intrepid. After that though, it's anyone's guess.
Best, Raptor