Wing commander the movie.

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Originally posted by Corsair(pilot)

That's like saying; "I can't really complain about that guy groping my girlfriend, he does it all the time!"
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No it's not.
 
Thank you Corsair(pilot) for seeming to be the only other person in this board who realizes that the movie and the game can't be woven together completely. I agree with you, Corsair, we can't just assume these lame changes happen between the movie and the rest of the WC universe.

Ok so what WildWeasel is saying is that Angel was the Wing Commander as a Lt. Cmdr. and then Col. Halcyon steps aboard and takes command of the wing because we're ASSUMING Angel switched from the Navy to the Space Force and was demoted to Captain and then when it says in WCI that she's getting transferred to the TCS Austin for her FIRST WING COMMANDER JOB she all of a sudden forgets she was serving as WC on the Tiger's Claw. Oh btw so if the movie happened almost a year before WCI, so then somehow Blair magically leaves the ship and no one remembers anyone so when Blair come onto the ship for WCI, Paladin introduces him to Angel for the first time, um again... oh but I guess by then Paladin resigns from Confed Intelligence and gets demoted from Commodore to Major to be a full time pilot until WCIII (or WC S.O.) when he gets re-promoted to Commodore again...

Please tell me there are other people that see the problems here...
 
Linking the movie with the games takes a certain point of view. This is mostly personal and may not apply to many of you, but it's about the only way I can explain it.

First of all, you have to be willing to drop your personal feelings and look at it objectively. People who dislike the movie often (subconsciously, if not intentionally) go out of their way to find contradictions that are somehow supposed to justify their opinions of it.

After that, you have to understand and accept that the games, the novels, and the movie are all telling stories about some futuristic, fictional universe. Each of them tells a different story and each one has a different way of telling that story, but ultimately, there's only one Wing Commander universe. For example, one author's vision of what the Kilrathi look like may differ from another author's vision, and some authors change their views over time. What we see via the games, novels, and the movie are merely representations of what things actually look like. This isn't to say that the real Wing Commander universe looks completely different, it's just there to explain away the cosmetic differences we see from product to product.

After that, it's just a matter of fitting things together and filling certain gaps. Angel is the Wing Commander in the movie and Halcyon is the Commander in the game. Therefore, a change in command must've occurred. You have to change which side you're on. You're trying to repair supposed tears in Wing Commander's continuity, not rip them further. The idea is to explain the discrepancy, not simply yell "Contradiction!" every time something seems amiss.

There are probably other little insights and points of view that I can give, but for the moment, they've slipped my mind. Keep in mind that this is just how I look at it. If it doesn't make sense to you, then ignore it. I don't want hear whining because you think my method of understanding things seems crazy (even though it probably is).
 
Quite seriously, Wing Commander isn't a brilliant piece of literature. Rather stupid things happen all the time.

Firstly, the usage of the term 'Wing' changes throughout the war period. During the Movie period it seems to be refering to what is later refered to as a squadron. Then in the first couple of games period, the term Wing refers to either an element or (generally in the books) it refers to an actual Wing. The term Wing is used pretty much exclusively in the WC3 and 4 period for an actual Wing (the organization above squadron). Then for Prophecy, Wings are what used to be squadrons, and Squadrons are what used to be Wings.

Secondly, you don't seem to have the time period right... the movie happens pretty much just before the game.

Thirdly, the thing with Paladin actually makes a hell of a lot of sense... He's counter-intel. So, we've had traitors aboard the Tiger's Claw. Hey! Let's assign a counter-intel operative to the ship! So, they stick him there in the flight wing. He's already got the appropriate qualifications, and only a couple of people know he's actually an operative. It makes a heck of a lot more sense than Paladin magically becoming an important operative in intel in under a year for the Firekkan incident...
 
Quite frankly... when looking to what's canon or not for the WC:I project... I exclude the books and movie. Not that I'm saying they're not part of the universe... Hell, most Star Wars nerds only accept the movies as canon, despite the fact that the books came first...
Edit- I gotta quit posting at 4 am. I'm sure this post was supposed to have a point...
 
Star Wars has had it's canon defined by Lucas. The movies are primary canon, the extended universe has varying values, but can always be overwritten by a movie. (Wow, all the practical knowledge arguing with crazy Spacebattles people has given me!)

Also, Star Wars movies came before Star Wars novels. Star Wars novels have been bought because people liked the movies.
 
See, that don't make no sense...

Given that *canon* means *what they follow for future products* how can something be *canon* but *not* something they follow for future products?

SpaceBattles people are just stupid.
 
Look, I just had a conversation with WildWeasel on AIM. He clarified a few things. He mentioned that we should try to weld iffy areas together with as much derived assumptions as we can, rather than exploit would-be contradictions. I guess that's where I see things differently. I choose to accept only what is given to me unless it's an otherwise obvious implication. So for me, the "problems" between the movie and the games/novels that deal with rank, who was WC, Taggart, Tolwyn, Concordia, etc... those become altered elements, which I see was changed for the purpose of Hollywood. Maybe we all know this but still continue to try to work with it. But I won't. I suppose that means I have no further discussion on this topic. I'll let this drop.
 
the film and the games (especially the earlier ones) where never gonna link up that well, Mr Roberts wrote/imagined them over 8 years before he wrote the initial wing commander movie script, dont you think with all the things he would of worked on with WC3 and 4 that his ideas about the earlier games stories would of changed quite a bit in this time? Personally i would of prefered a new crew and ship (something which im hoping for in this TV show).

anyways i've begun to write my own script, (well at least get the events in place for wing commander: insurection; anyone remember that people?) and its gonna be different and something like 60 years after Prophecy so i hope to avoid this (will it fit into this continuity blah blah)..
 
Originally posted by =Gemini=
[T]hat we should try to weld iffy areas together with as much derived assumptions as we can . . . that's where I see things differently. . . . So for me, the "problems" between the movie and the games/novels
. . . become altered elements, which I see was changed for the purpose of Hollywood. Maybe we all know this but still continue to try to work with it.
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Well, you’re close to understanding what’s really going on. The thing is: we’re playing what is best thought of as a game. And the object or aim of our game is to tie together in as logical a fashion as possible all the apparent inconsistencies among the various canon sources, which include any and all incarnations of WC (like the games, the movie, the books, etc.) that ultimately derive from Origin’s “approval”. Those inconsistencies, rather than being an annoyance, and regardless of how they came to exist (whether by artful intent, mistake, or even “for the purpose of Hollywood”), are the whole point, fun, and challenge of the game. (All good games must have a fun challenge.)

So, do you wanna play?:) If not, that’s fine. (Personally, I like chess but not checkers.) But just don’t get “hung up” on the notion that before you play you have to see or find that there is an objective basis for believing the proposition that all WC inconsistencies are resolvable. Rather, think of that proposition as irrelevant, a given, or simply a matter of “artfulness”. (For example, I trust that when you played your first game of chess or monopoly you did not insist on knowing “the reason” or being shown “the justification” for why the knight moves only as it does or why you get $200, or only $200, only when you pass “Go”.)
 
People who dislike the movie often (subconsciously, if not intentionally) go out of their way to find contradictions that are somehow supposed to justify their opinions of it.
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I see your point, but the same could be said about people who like the movie; they will go out of the way to ignore contradictions.

After that, you have to understand and accept that the games, the novels, and the movie are all telling stories about some futuristic, fictional universe. Each of them tells a different story and each one has a different way of telling that story, but ultimately, there's only one Wing Commander universe. For example, one author's vision of what the Kilrathi look like may differ from another author's vision, and some authors change their views over time. What we see via the games, novels, and the movie are merely representations of what things actually look like. This isn't to say that the real Wing Commander universe looks completely different, it's just there to explain away the cosmetic differences we see from product to product.
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Yes, I believe I have said this previously.

After that, it's just a matter of fitting things together and filling certain gaps. Angel is the Wing Commander in the movie and Halcyon is the Commander in the game. Therefore, a change in command must've occurred. You have to change which side you're on. You're trying to repair supposed tears in Wing Commander's continuity, not rip them further. The idea is to explain the discrepancy, not simply yell "Contradiction!" every time something seems amiss.
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I know, and I think that's pretty valid. However, I'm not telling anybody to pick the differences apart, I'm merely voiceing my opinion that on a personal level, I don't really like it, probobaly because, as I've said before, bad storytelling makes for a bad story. And I'm really not one for bad story's.

No it's not.
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Oooohh..... brilliant..... I understand now!
(that was my sarcastic writing)
 
Originally posted by Corsair(pilot)
I see your point, but the same could be said about people who like the movie; they will go out of the way to ignore contradictions.
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It's a little difficult to ignore contradictions while you're disproving them.
 
I laugh at each and every person who has trouble with the movie "because of continuity issues," but not the games. Each successive game has its own "errors," but you can explain those away as easily as we explain the movie.

Your problem is that you just dislike the movie, so you'll pick at it for things that would have normally escaped your notice in the games, and this makes you invalid.
 
yeah people who go out of their way to inforce this "continuity" on his/her favourite series are generally just being stupid... in most cases the writers are just making it up as they go along (maybe with a loose list of events to follow or rules even) perhaps a pefect continuity is a unreachable dream for the uber geeks on this planet (take star trek and its hard core fans for example). my main gripes with the film is that it just wasn't directed well, has a poor pace with the story and well has one of the worst endings ever... i have no problems with the continutity at all. and actually praise it for trying to do something different.
 
It's a little difficult to ignore contradictions while you're disproving them.
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What? That has absolutely no context here... You haven't disproved anything. In the movie Angel was in command, and Lt. Commander... in the game she's not in command and a Captain... it's not something you prove or disprove. Obviliously if you're going to try and string them both into one cohesive story she was demoted and the ranking system was changed, but I'm still lost on how you 'proved' that? By your logic, I just proved there were differences simply by stating them...

I laugh at each and every person who has trouble with the movie "because of continuity issues," but not the games. Each successive game has its own "errors," but you can explain those away as easily as we explain the movie.
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Hmmm... funny, I don't remember saying anything about continuity between games... and I love the movie, retard.

yeah people who go out of their way to inforce this "continuity" on his/her favourite series are generally just being stupid...
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Once again, I emphasize that I am not trying to enforce this "continuity" on anything... I am merely stating... ah fuck it, just read my bunch of other posts concerning the nature of this discussion: that's it's an element of bad storytelling and I don't enjoy it.

And I guess that's it, I've said all I can and if people keep coming up with responses that have absolutely nothing to do with the basic idea I am trying to convey, there really won't be any point in replying anymore. If you don't get it by now, you never will.
 
Originally posted by Corsair(pilot):

If you don't get it by now, you never will.
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I think we get your point. The contention, however, seems to be over what does or should follow from it. In the context of pure storytelling, I wouldn’t expect that anyone in the Zone likes the fact, for example, that in the WC4 novel the author confuses the Concordia-class with the “Concordia” of the Confederation-class. No question, this is not good. But many of us have simply “moved on” (and some time ago). If the various inconsistencies or gaps are “lemons” in the context of storytelling, they have become our “lemonade” in the context of canon.
 
corsair, i wasn't refering to you or anyone else here, just making a point that continuity isn't important. besides i have and still do enjoy the movie, its just that i couldn't really say that it was a good movie... because it just isn't. and i agree with you on the story it was badly paced, badly written and was directed badly.
 
The only problem with Wing Commander: the movie was the fact that they left most of the plot lying on the cutting room floor.
 
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