Wing Commander miniatures game

Discussion in 'General Wing Commander Chat' started by Adm_maverick, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Quarto

    Quarto Unknown Enemy

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    At last, the truth comes out! I had always suspected the Hellcat was something they pulled out of a cereal box :D.


    (the other joke to make at this point, of course, is that if you make an Epee, you'll be giving it thicker armour than it originally had)
     
  2. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    Eh I would probably use Card stock at that point. And that's if it actually mattered.

    Though that does give me ideas for some of the other ships...

    Congrats Quarto. You have officially joined the rank of DefianceIndustries for inspiring me in random ways.
     
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  3. Quarto

    Quarto Unknown Enemy

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    Always randomly happy to help in random ways :).
     
  4. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    hmm, this might result in a video.
     
  5. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    So been a little while since I posted on this project, but wow what an update I have for it.

    First off, a friend and I got in basically a whole day of playtesting using some of the rules. And pretty much decided the rules needed to change.
    I'm just using little cardboard models I've assembled for game tokens at this point. Nothing fancy. Just an ink jet printer, some cereal boxes, some glue, a couple q-tips and a butt load of patience.

    Pictures from said day of gaming:
    0BC34E06-1820-476A-AB01-F3FEA6593FA7.JPG 2E6234B7-A293-4605-B35A-FA1D83F1CB23.JPG 3FF19097-CE26-46D8-A965-42F52C9D49F9.JPG 4B7EDC4D-B4BB-4217-9976-EB1B625E1D26.JPG 4B62495B-88A8-45D0-9B4C-E4954E3937E0.JPG 4F0935F0-14E2-45E5-A12D-C52D8D3DB4B5.JPG 9AE76F67-6482-4BF7-BDA0-13C9712BA565.JPG 24B46276-0C71-4429-B5AA-030CBF7EA1CC.JPG 776B62D1-307E-4CDA-89D8-AC8C81EBBEB5.JPG

    As I said, after about 2 games we came to the conclusion that the rules as they were simply didn't work. So we dig a round of 'blindly blazing brainstorm' and made a crap ton of notes in the process. At this particular point, we've come up with the following setup:

    Still working with a card crafting mechanic, so having a card image up for reference might be helpful.
    card-example-layout.png

    The mechanic itself uses a solid "ship card" a transparent "Pilot sheet" and a transparent "Load out sheet". The sheets are placed over the ship card and then you put the assembled ship into a protector. The image shows an assembled card, in this case with Col. Blair piloting an Excalibur with 4 Pilum missiles (and yes I know I misspelled Tachyon, just roll with it).


    Basic Stats used in the game:
    Ships
    (7) -- Maneuver Value:
    A 2 part stat that represents the ships overall speed and maneuverability. The first value is the crafts flat-out speed and denotes how many inches the ship can move in a straight line. The second number represents how many degrees of turn the ship can manage under ‘optimal’ conditions. The ship can user afterburners to increase their flat-out speed at the expense of the second. So a ship sacrifices 1 degree of turn, for 1 inch more of distance, up to its maximum turn. A pilot can push his craft harder but will need to make pilot skill tests as detailed below.

    (8) -- Shields: how many points of shielding the craft has. The shields must be removed before the ship itself will take damage. 1 hit against the shields removed 1 point of shields. Under normal conditions, a craft will regenerate 1 shield per turn.

    (9) -- Hull points
    : A rating of how many hull points/hit points a fighter has. If it is reduced to 0 Hull points, then it is destroyed.

    (10) -- Evasive Measures:
    a Letter (D or F) followed by a number. This denotes what kind of evasive measures (Decoys or Flares) and how many of them. Decoys have a chance to fool any sort of missile (Excluding dumb fires) but only have a 30% chance of doing so, while Flares will only affect Heat Seeking Missiles, but have a much higher chance (60%) of doing so.

    (11) -- Ship ability: Not all ships have one. This includes things like the Strakha’s Cloaking device, the Excaliburs’ auto-tracking, and others.

    (13) -- Weapons:
    how many, and what kind of energy guns the craft carries.

    (14) -- Loadout: How many missile hardpoints the craft has.

    (15) -- Keywords: a list of Keywords that apply to the fighter. These are used for identification based on different criteria. Things like “All medium fighters” or “Only fighter with the ‘ground’ keyword”.

    Ship Cost
    : the points cost of the ship.

    Pilots
    (3) -- Pilot Skill – the general piloting skill of the individual pilot.

    (6) -- Gunnery Skill – the ability of the pilot to hit a target with the guns of their craft.

    (12) -- Pilot Ability - Not all pilots have one. Generally reserved for character and elite pilots.

    (15) -- Keywords: a list of keywords that apply to the pilot. Like the keywords for the fighter, these are used for identification based on different criteria, things like “all Confed pilots”. Also meant to prohibit the use of multiples of the same character. While you can have 2 Excaliburs on the board, you can’t have 2 Christopher Blairs regardless of what cards are in your deck.

    Pilot cost: the number of points it costs to field this pilot.


    And then you would have a sheet that indicates the type of missiles you are equipping the craft with but it's just a name.

    The stats for the weapons are

    Cannons
    Damage – How much damage the canon inflicts per shot
    Range – the range, in inches, the cannon is effective.
    Shots – How many shots the weapon gets
    Special – Any special effects or rules for the cannon

    Missiles
    Movement – a split stat rendered in 3 parts: (X/Y)Z. The numbers inside the parenthesis are the ‘burn and turn’ ratio. The first number is the number of inches the missile must move forward in order to turn the number of degrees in the second number. The third number, the one outside the parenthesis is the maximum distance the missile can travel per game turn.
    Example:

    Name Movement Damage Tracking Lock-On Criteria
    Hunter Sight Missile (3/1)14 20 7 2 A potential Target must be of the same model as it's the original target and not be a Kilrathi fighter.

    The Hunter sight missile must move 3 inches forward for every 1 degree of turn it makes
    Damage – the amount of damage the missile can inflict on impact.
    Tracking – a bit like the pilot skill, but is really only used to determine if the missile locks onto a target after it has missed the first time.
    Lock-on – how long in turns it takes for a missile to lock onto the intended target.
    Criteria – the criteria a target must meet for the missile to lock onto.


    Stress Tokens
    There are times that a pilot will push themselves very hard. Sometimes the pilot is able to pull off the crazy stunt, sometimes they pull it off but they’ve put a lot of stress on their bodies and they have to deal with the results. This is represented in-game by accumulating ‘Stress tokens’. A pilot can accumulate any number of tokens in a given turn, but they can only lose 1 token per turn.
    • If a pilot has 1 Stress Token, they suffer a -1 modifier to their gunnery skills
    • If a pilot has 2 Stress Tokens, they suffer a -1 modifier to Gunnery skill tests and –2 to Pilot skills tests
    • If a pilot has 3 Stress Tokens, they suffer a -1 modifier to Gunnery skill tests and –2 to Pilot skill tests and every turn must pass a pilot skill test to avoid passing out.
    • If a pilot has 4 Stress Tokens, they pass out.
    Losing Stress tokens:
    A pilot will lose 1 stress token for each turn they do not perform any actions that result in gaining a stress token. If they perform an action that results in them accumulating a stress token, any stress token they previously had remained, and they accumulate the additional stress token. A pilot can only lose 1 stress token per turn, but they can accumulate multiple tokens in a single turn.

    If a pilot ‘passes out’ or is under the effect of ‘passed out’, they are unable to control their ship. Each turn they must make a pilot skill test to determine if they regain consciousness. This test is done with all applicable modifiers (such as having 3 stress tokens). If they pass the pilot skill test, they immediately remove 1 stress token and regain consciousness.

    If they have not regained consciousness, they will continue to travel in a straight line up to their maximum unmodified maneuver distance until one of three conditions occur:
    1- They regain consciousness (as outlined above)
    2- They are destroyed
    3- They leave the board (and count as being destroyed).

    Playing the game
    Gunnery/Pilot Skill tests

    There are 2 types of ‘tests’ done in the game to determine the results of certain actions:
    • Gunnery Skill test – used when shooting the weapons on your craft.
    • Pilot skill test – used when it involves operating the craft.
    In both of these cases, the process is the same. You take your base value (the gunnery skill/pilot skill from the pilot card), apply any modifiers as needed, and then roll a D10 and compare that to the modified skill value. If the result is less than or equal to the modified skill value, the test is passed. If it is more, you pass.

    Here is an example:

    We have a ‘Rookie Confed Pilot’ piloting the Excalibur, shooting at a Dralthi while he is under the influence of a 1 stress token. The Pilot’s Gunnery Skill is 4, which is his basic unmodified value. The Excalibur grants a +4 modifier to the pilot’s Gunnery Skill, while the stress token causes a -1 modifier to Gunnery skill checks.

    Base skill (4) + (+3) + (-1) = 6 <= Modified value to test against.

    So to make the shot, the Rookie Confed Pilot needs to roll a 6 or less.

    The same process applies when making Pilot Skills check.

    Moving
    To move a ship you need to look at the 'Maneuver Value' on the ship card. You can see it's a split number, X/Y. Basically, it's how many inches forward the ship can move, over how many degrees the ship can turn in a single turn. Because it's stuck in my mind, I sometimes refer to this as the "Burn and Turn". For reference making a 180 takes 8 degrees of turn to accomplish. So using the Excalibur in the example, it can move 8 inches in a straight line, and turn up to 7 degrees in a given turn under optimal conditions.

    Note that I said under optimal conditions. A pilot can push his craft further than 'optimal' and same sometimes pull off some really impressive feats. Most ships also have Afterburner that allows the ship to achieve much higher speeds at the expense of maneuverability, or swapping the turn for the burn. For each degree of turn, you sacrifice, the ship can move one inch further. So the Excalibur can move a maximum of 15" in a single turn (remember this intended to be played on a 2'x2' space.

    When it comes to pushing the ship into hard turns, this is handled by turning the ship beyond it's listed max. Using the Excalibur as the example, let's say it's moved 13" (and thus sacrificing 5 degrees of turn to move that far) and the player then to turn the Ship 5 degrees to it's left. He can turn the first 2 degrees no problem, for the third turn he must pass a Pilot skill check. If he passes it, he can proceed to make the second degree of turn with no penalty. If he fails, he still completes that degree of turn but gains 1 Stress token.

    When he moves onto the third degree of turn, he must pass another Pilot skill check with an -1 modifier to it. And likewise, if he passes the check he completes that degree of turn without penalty. If he fails he gains a second stress token. Finally, to make that third degree of turn, he must pass a third pilot skill check now with a -2 modifiers (-4 if he failed the previous 2 checks because now he'll have 2 Stress tokens).

    Attacking
    There are two types of attacks you can make in the game, those are "Gunnery Attacks" and "Missile Attacks". These are handled in two different ways.

    Gunnery Attacks
    Gunnery Attacks involve shooting attacks from your canons at an enemy target (and dumbfire missiles) and are handle via Gunnery Checks.
    First determine if you are within range of your weapon. To determine this look at the Weapons table and look up the Canons on your ship. Using the Excalibur as the example here once more. It is armed with Tachyon Canons. Tachyon Canons have Range: 10. So meassure from the front quadrant of the base of the Excalibure to the base of the enemy ship. If it is under 10" then it is with in range.

    With range confirmed, determine number of shots. Tachyon Canons are S: 3, meaning each canon makes 3 shots. The Excalibur has 4 Tachyon Canons. Meaning it can throw out 12 shots per attack.

    So pick up 12 dice and perform 12 gunnery checks. Everyone that passes, hits. Everyone that fails, misses.

    The Enemy can attempt to dodge them by performing a Pilot Skill test with a -2 modifier for each hit. For each test that they pass, one more hit is discarded.



     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
  6. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    So needed to break the post up. It was getting difficult to type. Continuing where I left off.

    Missile Attack
    Missile Attacks work a bit differently then gunnery attacks (excluding dumb fire missiles that are just handled like Gunnery attacks).
    Firstly, missiles require time to lock onto a target before they will fire.
    Secondly, different missiles using different criteria to lock onto a target.
    Thirdly, the missile needs to be within its maximum range to lock onto a target.

    Once more using the Excalibur for this example, it is armed with Pilum Friend or Foe missiles.
    The Pilum's maximum range is 14, a lock-on value of 2, and has the following criteria:
    A potential target must be either a non-confed fighter or have a 'Disabled communications system" damage result card.

    So the target must either be something other than a Confed fighter or have a "Disabled Communications System" damage result card, must be within 14" and must be so for 2 turns.
    The Excalibur player declares they are attempting to lock on to an Enemy fighter in turn 3. Assuming the enemy fighter does not leave the Excalibur's forward quadrant, they will be able to launch the Pilum in Turn 5.

    The enemy fighter may attempt to dodge the missile in one of 3 ways:
    1- Pass a Pilot skill test modified by subtracting the tracking value of the Pilum from it (in this example the Pilum has a tracking stat of 6).
    2- Drop a Decoy (flares will not affect a Pilum). A decoy has a 50% chance of tricking the missile.
    - To trick a missile roll a D10. on a 5 or less, the missile locks onto the decoy and is destroyed along with the decoy. on a 6 or more, the decoy fails to attract the missile.
    3- Drop a Decoy and pass a Pilot Skill test that is modified by subtracting 1/2 of the Pilums Tracking value from (3 in this case).

    Assuming that the pilot passed their pilot skill test (and the decoy failed to attack the missile), the missile flies off confused and will attempt to re-acquire its target. Any other result ends with the missile being destroyed.

    The decoy remains where it was dropped and does now move. If it is later destroyed, then it is removed from the board.

    The next turn, the missile will attempt to turn around and re-acquire its target (Or possibly another one that meets its criteria).

    Missiles have a movement stat rendered into 3 parts: (X/Y)Z.
    The X/Y is the number of inches a missile must move forward for every degree of turn, while the Z is the total distance the Missile can travel in a given turn.

    I haven't updated the missile's move stats since I revised the ships maneuver value so these numbers are going to seem a bit wonky in comparison to them.
    The Pilum's movement value is (2/1)14 meaning it must move 2 inches forward for each degree of turn it uses and it can move a maximum of 14 inches per turn.

    If it comes with its max distance (14") of a ship, it will check if that ship meets its criteria. if it does, it will attempt to lock onto it. Roll a D10 and check it's tracking value. If you rolled under it, the missile locks on. If the result is higher, the missile failed to lock on and will attempt to lock on to the next ship it sees.

    After 3 turns, the fuel of the missile is spent and the missile self-destructs.

    Damage
    There are two items that take damage in the game: Shields, and hull points. If a ships hull points are reduced to 0, the ship is destroyed. Shields regenerate over time whereas hull Points do not.

    Shields take damage first. For each hit a ship suffers, regardless of being from a missile or cannons, the ship loses 1 shield point.
    Normally shields regenerate at a rate of 1 point per turn.


    Depleting Hull points rely on the weapons Damage value. For each point of damage inflicted on a ship, roll 2D10 and consult the damage chart. Apply results as indicated.

    2018-11-28 (2).png
    • Disabled Communication System: Communication-based Pilot abilities may no longer be used. F-o-F type missile can no longer determine if the ship is friend or foe.
    • Engines Damaged: Reduce your Turn and Burn by 50% (rounding up).
      • -The Excalibur would become 4/4
    • Tracking System Damaged: Gunnery Skills reduced by 50% (rounding up)
    • Col. Blair would become Gunnery Skill: 4
    • Shields Damaged: permanently reduce ships max shields by 2.
    • Reactor Damaged: lose 1/2 of your power points.
    I'm still working on power distribution, but the basic idea is that you will have a series of pegs that you can distribute to your respective 'power systems' on a tray. You must have at least 1 peg in each system. You can not have 0 power in a given category unless you have a "Reactor Damaged" damaged card, or have completely lost your shields. You can divert energy to one system at the expense of other systems.
    For each point above the standard 2 pegs in each category:
    • In weapons, you would gain 1 additional shot.
    • In Engines: you gain 1 additional inch of forwarding movement. Turn degree is not affected.
    • In Shields: you gain 1 additional point of shields.
    I think that about covers the rules as they stand right now.

    I've also been hammering out some cards to at least throw material on the table for discussion.
    card-builder(Excalibur).png card-builder(hellcat).png card-builder(hellcat-medium).png card-builder(Hornet).png card-builder(pilot)-Prince Thrakath.png CardBuilder-(pilot[Major blair]).png CardBuilder-(pilot[rookie]).png CardBuilder-(pilot[rookie])-2.png card-builder(Strakha).png card-builder(vampire).png
     
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  7. DefianceIndustries

    DefianceIndustries Commodore

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    One note, FoF missiles don't lock per se, they just seek the nearest "non-friendly" target. Imrecs and Heatseekers lock and might make better examples.
     
  8. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, I know. there are a lot of things in the video games that are probably not going to translate into the table top. Missiles are proving to be a royal pain in the butt just from a basic mechanics stand point and I really want to avoid having a bunch of "* these rules do not apply to [weapon name]" if I can avoid it. Still, develop, test, evaluate, refine, repeat. That's the process. And chances are a lot of things will change with revisions.
     
  9. FekLeyrTarg

    FekLeyrTarg Commodore

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    Perhabs it's not all too difficult, at least not for the standard missiles.
    You could for example have a paragraph for each missile to look up.

    ---Dart Dumbfire---
    -unguided (flies straight ahead)
    -Cannot be decoyed
    -Damage: xxx

    ---Javelin Heatseeker---
    -Can only be fired from behind
    -Locks on the current target
    -Can be decoyed
    -Damage: xxx

    ---Spiculum Imrec---
    -Can be fired at any angle
    -Locks on the current target
    -Can be decoyed
    -Damage: xxx

    ---Pilum IFF---
    -Can be fired at any angle
    -Locks on the nearest target
    -Can be decoyed
    -Damage: xxx

    ---Shipkiller Torpedo---
    -Can be fired at any angle
    -Locks on the currently targeted capital ship
    -Needs x turns to lock on
    -Damage: xxx

    ---Leech/Vampire---
    -Can be fired at any angle
    -Locks on the current target
    -Can be decoyed
    -Disables shields and weapons upon impact

    ---Mace Tactical Nuke---
    -unguided (flies straight ahead)
    -Cannot be decoyed
    -Can be remotely detonated
    -Detonates itself after x turns
    -Splash-damage: xxx

    EDIT: Nevermind. I think I misunderstood you when you mentioned the difficulties and the rules exceptions.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
  10. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    Welcome to the joyous effort of game development. I've learned to slap myself for saying the following:
    • 'Just a little tweak'
    • 'this should be simple to..'
    • 'that's no problem'
    • 'oh well that's just a single exception'
    every single one of those phrases have become harbingers of sweeping changes to the rules as they stand.

    I'm looking at some cannon stats and building a table to compare stats across all of the weapons... and yeah. probably going to be re-evaluating how cannons work in the near future.
     
  11. FekLeyrTarg

    FekLeyrTarg Commodore

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    Interestingly, we've made the same experience in XWVM, especially in regards of AI behavior. One change to fix a bug can cause new issues.
     
  12. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    It really is kind of like playing a giant game of Jenga, but the blocks all have random connections to other blocks that you can't see until you go to pull or push on them.
     
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  13. Wolfman

    Wolfman Rear Admiral

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    Adm_maverick, I like what I am seeing here.

    Would be able to upload templates you are using and any updated printouts to make different fighters (from what I saw in the photos above)?

    I'll have a look to print out some now that my move is done and have a go at the game as you have it.

    Personally i'd love to see WC1 era stuff, but that is a personal preference.
     
  14. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    Sure, you looking for the ships, the cards or something else?
     
  15. Wolfman

    Wolfman Rear Admiral

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    Ships, Weapon charts, turn template, basically everything lol.

    And do you have a formula for hull and shield values?

    Curious as I would like to have a crack at the WC1 ships.
     
  16. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    I don't have a 'formula' for it yet. I've only just started compiling data about the cannons to figure out range, damage, shots, and cost. Then I need to do the same with missiles, and then I'll probably come back to the ships and do the same there. But I have started on that.

    I've abanded the turn template, at least in the version you see in the pictures because it became very common that fighters would be close together and the template very quickly become prohibitively difficult to use in those situations. So I'm working with a new design idea of purpose built bases for each figther. The base will have a multi-colored dial in it with a view slot aligned with the front of the fighter. When you turn the fighter, it turns the dial and you can see how many degrees of turn you will need to make the turn.
    SAM_4039.JPG

    Certainly more labor intensive to build but... yeah. Open to other suggestions.

    Now all of that being said, I have compiled all of the current materials I'm using into a zip file and thrown it up for download. The Ship tokens are included in both .png format (1 fighter type per file, generally 2 'normal' fighters and 1 'ace' coloring), the card builder is a photoshop file with layers. I think it's fairly straightforward as to what layer does what, but if there's a question about it just ask. If you don't use photoshop, I included pngsof the ship card, the loadout sheet and the pilot sheet. The zip also includes my 'write up' file which contains pretty much evertything I've written down for this game. Not gonna promise everything makes sense in it, but yeah. I've been up for 17 hours several days when I've been working on the file. So please ask. I can use the informational return engagement on it.
     
  17. Wolfman

    Wolfman Rear Admiral

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    Hi mate,

    I looking at the files tonight, and so far it looks great.

    I think the trick is the weapon damage values vs Shield and Hull strength without having too much damage tracking going on, but nothing that can't be worked on. To my mind I'm thinking of having guns in pairs not rolling for each gun separately, but that is just my preference.

    I will try it out the way you have it once I get some ships assembled.

    Great work so far and I hope to contribute to getting this beyond thought and testing.
     
  18. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    Appreciate the help. I'm open to the idea of actually marketing this game to a publisher, of course to do that the game needs to A- be finished, and B- not be Wing Commander, but if we use Wing Commander for development purposes, we're good.
     
  19. Wolfman

    Wolfman Rear Admiral

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    I had wanted to adapt the X-wing system to Wing Commander and then try to do a crowdfunding thing to raise capital to be able to publish myself, but really I wanted to try and get a license from the owners of WC to make a miniatures game and get a license from FFG for the Flight Path System.

    It would need lots of dollary-doos.

    However, making a generic space combat game allows for all sorts of unofficial ships to used by players. And you can have unofficial WC supplements, which imitate the WC ships (no images used and names altered) would be fine.

    I would say when this moves on from idea to fruition, you would need to try to demo it at gaming conventions and local gaming stores, just to get exposure which is gold in the miniatures gaming world.

    If you have ever made friends with anyone in the gaming community from any shop or miniatures company I would hit them up for that kind of info.
    anyway, no need to go jumping to far forward! Lets get this ironed out some more.
     
  20. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    Middile of Middletown USA (Virginia)
    Even beyond the dollars needed, the legal invovlements for that is staggering. And while I wouldn't say 'no' to it the cavieate is that whoever is asking would need to convince me that they knew how to go about doing it and had at least a meeting set up.

    I was thinking of have my sister in law's sister's husbands brother's son release the 'fan version', but yeah same idea I guess.
     

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