Wing Commander miniatures game

Discussion in 'General Wing Commander Chat' started by Adm_maverick, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    Hey all, had a bit of a random thought occur to me today that I wanted to toss up for discussion. Would there be any interest in developing a Wing Commander table top game? Sort of like X-wing the Miniatures game, but for Wing Commander. There are a plethora of 3D modelers here who have made tons of models. Just a casual search on Shape ways found:
    F-107 Lance "Dragon" Fighter
    Shrike Bomber
    Longbow Bomber
    Strakha Cloaking Fighter
    Devastator Heavy Bomber
    F-66 Thunderbolt Heavy Fighter
    Pakhtan Bomber
    Voktoth

    Now to be clear I am not suggesting making something to produced and sold, even attempting to undertake something like that is beyond my skill set, but at the same time I'm not ruling the idea out either. With Mini-games growing the way they have been there might actually be a market for a Wing Commander specific table top game.

    But the point of my random thought was about something along the lines of taking X-wing, or Warhammer aeronautica imperialis, or some other game and putting together A- an alt-world set of rules and B- a catalog of locations and options for getting the fighter craft.

    So... thoughts? Interest? Feed back? Like I said, this is just a random idea I had so pretty sure it needs some development and there will be other questions to discuss.
     
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  2. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    TacOps was similar to what you were talking about; it's part of what drew me to the CIC forums in the first place (very first post was to volunteer to take over for someone in test game #4). Adapting a hex-and-counter system to a miniatures system would not be particularly difficult; indeed, I have a method for doing just that included in WCRPG. What you would need to develop a miniatures game are the miniatures themselves, of course. In the meantime, there's always the tokens for developing the system itself.

    Somebody else had the same idea a few years back - adapt the XWM rules for Wing Commander. Now that I've actually played XWM and have a better understanding of it, it might be time to give that a go again. Or, something from scratch could be developed.
     
  3. FekLeyrTarg

    FekLeyrTarg Commodore

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    I'd love to see a miniature game based on WC, only a bit more complex than XWM to account for the vast diversity of energy-based weapons compared to Star Wars.

    If that game shall be hex-based, I recommend looking at "Star Fleet Battles" for inspiration, especially if Capships shall be involved.
    http://www.starfleetgames.com/CadetTraining.shtml
     
  4. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    Guess I should grab a copy of the various rule books, read 'em and start posting ideas huh?

    Ideas for game:
    • Mechanism for different damage output of weapons (Plasma cannon being able to damage capital ship components, leach cannon disabling ships etc)
    Any other thoughts to toss on the list?
     
  5. ChrisReid

    ChrisReid Super Soaker Collector / Administrator

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    There would definitely be interest as a number of people have gone forward and made tabletop miniature games in the past. Search for AAN or Astro Commander in the CIC news archives:

    aan_models8.jpg astro_commander53.jpg astro_commander68.jpg astro_commander20.jpg astro_commander59.jpg astro_commander69.jpg
     
  6. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    I'd start with figuring out what era you want to cover. I'm pretty sure it was no accident that TacOps focused on WC2, though at the time it went inactive it was branching into WC3 and there was a set of stats available for WC1-era craft.

    Go for movement next. Figure out the size of your battlefields, how far a craft can go in a given turn, afterburners, etc. There were a couple of cases in the TacOps playthroughs where players accidentally flew their craft off the map due to the small size of the board versus the long range covered with a single afterburner charge (that said, I love the simplicity of the TacOps system, and I'll plug the conversion from WCRPG between hex-and-counter and minatures-type systems again here).

    Gun damage is also going to be something you want to figure out early. Off the top of my head, you could do a method of different colored dice for various gun types, with each gun type having the potential to hit on a various results. If different color isn't your thing, you might consider different die types. An attack-vs-defense mechanism ala XWM would probably work as a starting point here.

    EDIT: Another thought - I'm part of a local group of game designers that meets once a month (sometimes more) to show what we're working on and get feedback. I'd be happy to help with the development of this idea and get their feedback, if that's something you'd like to do.
     
  7. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    Putting a link to the BGG article on Richthofen's War here; it was recommended to me as the granddaddy of this kind of game. Might be useful, might not...
     
  8. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    hmm, well I guess the first thing to decide is scope of the game. The original thought I had was a small scale game, 2 fighter groups engaging each up with some special scenarios to handle torpedo runs against capital ships and the like. But like the images that ChrisReid posted is much much larger then I was considering. Like what I was thinking of originally, the Tiger's claw would BE the board practically speaking. Dealing with a Hvar'kann... that'd be a special one-off situation where like you and a friend each have 30 fighters on the board while the Hvar'kann is the back drop or something of that nature.

    So I guess the first thing to decide is are we talking Fighter engagements or carrier group engagements?


    The initial thought was sparked by Wing Commander 3 ships (working on the Tallahasse model), but having been asked the question I think a better way to start would be to develop a 'scale' and work through it as the eras progress.

    Okay that didn't make a lot of sense.

    So we have a range of fighter craft with some performance stats (Stats marked with an astrick were taken from WCPEdit so may or may directly align with other stats taken from WCPedia).
    Blood Fang Vampire Scimitar Raptor Panther
    Max-Y: 70dps 70dps* 6dps 8dps 110dps*
    Max-P: 90dps 135dps* 6dps 7dps 60dps*
    Max-R: 90dps 180 dps* 7dps 8dps 110dps*
    Cruise speed: 380 kps 350kps* 150kps 250 kps 320kps
    Max speed: 560 kps 530kps* 360kps 400 kps 528kps*
    Afterburners: 1400 kps 1500kps* 1120kps 1200 kps 1300kps
    Fore-shields: 250cm 300cm 6cm 7cm 200cm*
    aft shields: 250cm 300cm 5cm 7cm 200cm*
    F.armor: 100cm 320cm 8cm 10cm 280cm*
    R.armor: 100cm 320cm 8cm 9cm 240cm*
    r.armor: 100cm 320cm 6.5cm 8cm 260cm*
    l.armor: 100cm 320cm 6.5cm 8cm 260cm*


    So stat by stat we have the following ranges:

    Max-Y: 6dps up to 110dps
    Max-P: 6dps up to 135dps
    Max-R: 7dps up to 135dps
    Cruise Speed: 150kps up to 380kps
    Max Speed: 360kps to 560kps
    Afterburner speed: 1120kps to 1500kps
    Fore-shields: 6cm up through 300cm
    aft shields: 5cm up through 300cm
    F. Armor: 8cm up through 320cm
    R.Armor: 8cm up to 320cm
    r.armor: 6.5cm up to 320cm
    l.armor: 6.5cm up to 320cm

    just running off the top of my head I would work to build a scale where the max value in each stat is somewhere between 50% and 75% of the full value of the scale. So the Y/P/R, yeah in theory the maximum possible would be 180dps per second and anything over say 135dps could only be achieved by top-tier performance gear and mad-skilled pilots. By tying it all together on a coherent scale if some one wants to assemble a squad of say Raptors lead by a Panther they could.

    I never say 'no' to help on a project like this.

    Anyone think it'd be worth looking into making it an official product? Like does EA hold the license, and would it be worth considering trying to contact them about making it an official game?
     
  9. DefianceIndustries

    DefianceIndustries Commodore

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    @Adm_maverick If you're thinking something along the lines of having a fixed cap-ship occupying the center of the map, Steve Jackson games had a game called Star Fist which had a similar mechanic. The immobile asteroid fortress occupied the center hex with concentric circles representing the various defensive zones. The other player played smaller mobile fighters and navy craft (each with their own movement rules and weapon loadouts) which would then maneuver around the map to set up attacks on the various quadrants. Each quad on the fortress had a set amount of guns and missiles that could fire in that arc. Attacks on the fortress could damage detailed critical systems like comms, missile controls/bays, computers, etc. while the smaller ships could basically take two hits, guns and drives. You could do two maps, one Tiger's Claw, one Snakeir in that vein.

    Also FASA's Crimson Skies had a similar system for handling zeppelin attacks, the zeppelin was the center of the map and the players had to maneuver around it or risk crashing into it.

    You might hybridize the two?
     
  10. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    That is what I was thinking of when I had the original idea, @DefianceIndustries. Not married to it though.
     
  11. DefianceIndustries

    DefianceIndustries Commodore

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    my personal opinion is that the game should be more focused on fighter scale combat. Cap ship v cap ship as represented in SFB is cool, but misses the spirit of WC. The torpedo missions were usually big events in wc2 and usually something to be anticipated and or feared. :)
     
  12. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    That's what I was thinking.
     
  13. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    So I looked up Astro Commander and AAN. Astro Commander looks like it'd be really fun, but not the kind of scale I'm thinking about. I'm thinking something a bit more in line with X-wing. Focus on individual pilots in fighters. Average game having like between 3 and 8 fighters on the table. IF capital ships are involved in the particular game they would likely be set peiceswith weapon emplacements that act like fighter but can't move. Perhaps a Carrier defense mission would involve a Cap Ship missile having to move from one side of the board to the opposing side of the board. But yeah, point being the game I'm thinking of would be fighter based. Build your squadron, outfit your craft, take on the mission. Maybe develop an XP mechanic for campaigns so pilots can level up.

    Anyway, I've been looking at the fighter stats for the fighter between Wing Commander, up through Wing Commander 3. Something I've noticed that was a major change between the WC1/2 era and the WC 3/4/P/So era: Ship performance and construction radically changed.

    Like if I compare the Salthi and the H'riss to the Ekapshi and Sorthak in terms of maneuverability, armor and shields. The Salthi and H'riss average out to 13 Degrees per second Yaw rate, 11 pitch, and 13.5 roll while armor wise they average out to about 9.3 cm. The Ekapshi and Sorthak by comparison (remember the Ekapshi is a Atmospheric only light fighter, while the Sorthak is considered a "Super heavy") average out to 65 DPS yaw, 55 pitch and 55 roll with an average of 125cm of armor. Heck, just for grins and giggles, let's compare it to the Blood Fang from WC2, which averages out to 8 DPS on all Axis, and having 8.25cm of armor. So the "Super heavy" fighter can out manuever the top of the line best of the best that the Kilrathi were producing just a few years prior?

    So I'm thinking that if we want to do one compatible range to cover all the fighter craft from Wing Commander up through Wing Commander Prophecy/Secret Ops, we're going to need to do some fidgiting with information and stats so that the.... well so we don't have a Super-heavy fighter that can out manuever a elite custom built figther, know what I mean?
     
  14. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    So I haven't been able to put much time into the Mini-game idea due to school and work, but I have been thinking about it. I think what needs to happen is scale the stats one way or another. Either scale the WC1/2 stats closer to the WC3-WCP stats (6dps becomes 60dps or similar actually it would probably be like 45 dps but anyway) or the other way, down scaling the WC3 and after stats closer to the WC1/2 stats. Personally, I'm thinking scale the WC1/2 stuff toward the post-wc3 average because there are more ships after WC3 then there are prior to it. But I wanted to toss the question up here and ask for feed back.
     
  15. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    I came across this same issue when I was building craft statistics for WCPRG - the note I made in Chapter 9.3 reads as follows:

    Player groups may feel that the weapons installed aboard craft from the WC3 era (roughly 2669) and later do not inflict significant amounts of damage quickly enough for good role-playing; the statistics indicated for these craft are correct based upon all available data. If they so choose, GMs may multiply any damage inflicted by these craft; a general multiplier of between five and ten times is recommended.

    I recall through playtesting that five times worked well for WC3-era craft, while ten times worked better for Prophecy era. You could just as easily scale the defenses back on those craft by proportional amounts (10%-20% of their listed values). All depends on how you want to handle application of damage.
     
  16. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    So got a chance to put some time into thought today and came up with at least an idea of where to start with. In this particular case just some rough notes regarding maneuvering. I hope it's self-explanatory, but at the same time I am tossing this up for discussion and to get some feed back. So hopefully it's not too self-explanatory.


    Pilot skill determines what maneuvers a ship can under take, but maneuver value limits it.

    Ex: Longbow bombers simply don’t have the maneuverability to perform a fish hook for instance no matter who is flying them.
    (The next section is just copied from Claw Marks and is a list of maneuvers.
    Burnout: Hit the afterburners and increase speed until your pursuer is no longer gaining on you or the afterburners finish their burn. Then perform as tight a 180 degree turn as you can handle; if your target is within your cone of fire, open up on him.

    Fishhook: Calculate the new heading you want. Turn to a heading which is at a 180 degree angle off that figure, then almost immediately make a 180 degree turn to your course of choice. For instance, if you are on a 0o course and want to make a 90 degree left turn, you first make a 90 degree right turn, then follow up immediately with a 180 degree turn.

    Hard Brake: Reduce forward velocity as quickly as you can. If you brake sooner, harder, and better than your pursuer, he will overshoot you and enter your cone of fire. Open on him.

    Kickstop: Make a hard 90º turn in any direction and hold your new course for a moment. If your pursuer overshoots and doesn't turn in your wake, do a 180o spin back and open fire.

    Turn-'n'-Spin: This is like the Kickstop, except that you also kill engine power.

    Roll: Close on your target while performing a corkscrew roll.

    Shake: Also called Zig-Zag. Perform back-and-forth 45 degree evasive maneuvers while closing on a target. Varying between Shake and Roll tactics while closing is usually termed a Shake, Rattle, and Roll.

    Sit-'n'-Kick: An evasive maneuver especially useful against large ships. Make a 90o turn in any direction. Shut off engines and spin to face your target; open fire. Then, make another random 90o turn and hit your afterburners.

    Sit-'n'-Spin: Kill your engines and perform a 360 degree spin, firing on any targets that enter your cone of fire. Once you've spun to your original course, re-engage engines and continue.

    Tail: You all know how to tail a target ship. But don't forget: Until you're sure of your most effective tailing range, try to maintain a range of 1000 meters, the "by-the-book" range.

    Tight Loop: Perform a minimum radius turn in any direction until you resume the course you held at the beginning of the maneuver. Properly performed, this will put you behind your pursuer, or at least shake him off your tail for a moment.

    Notes: Perhaps use an action point system that combines pilot skill with ships maneuver to determine how many action points a ship has each phase (Pilot skill 7 + Ship maneuver 6 = 13 action points). These points can be spent on either maneuvers, special tactics, or attacks.

    Maniac: Pilot skill 10

    Maverike: Pilot skill 9

    CatScratch: Pilot Skill 5

    Generic Pilot: Pilot Skill 4

    Longbow: Maneuver value 1

    BearCat: Maneuver value 6


    When a maneuver brings a ship into contact with another ship or object, roll some sort of pilot skill check. The higher the respective pilot skills used, the less likely the ships will collide.

    -Through out the Wing Commander Games, the risk of hitting another ship was very real… and tended to be very final in terms of the current engagement
     
  17. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    Hey Capi, did you compile stats for the ship guns in that RPG? if so, mind tossing me a link to it please?
     
  18. DefianceIndustries

    DefianceIndustries Commodore

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    i always liked a more random collision mechanic.

    if two ships end their movement in the same hex, both pilots roll a d10, if the numbers are a match, the fighters collide and are both destroyed.
     
  19. Adm_maverick

    Adm_maverick Rear Admiral

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    Something to thin about I guess. The big thing is that I feel that the respective pilot should have a lot of influence over the out come of such a thing. A new rookie versus say Dah'kath. yeah it's more likely that Dah'kath will pull off a high risk move and survive like that then the rookie pilot is.

    Anyway, just something to toss up for discussion. I ran across the concept of "Card Building" and I think it's a cool idea that will really have the benefit of making the player more invested in building a squad. Now I should also say I'm not totally sure I'm understanding the concept properly so... yeah. This is my thinking:

    You have a ship card, which has the stats for the ship itself, but doesn't include the number of missiles, or any information regarding the pilot. That information is printed on transparent sheets the same size of the ship card. So you would basically have a card protector that you 'build' your card in by putting these sheets over top of the ship card.

    So as an example: Here is a mock up I made of the Excalibur:
    excalibur-01.png

    Now this is based loosely on X-wing, so that's why it's laid out in a similar fashion and as we develop rules the lay out will probably change. But you can see the Excalibur is Manuever 6, with 3 shields and 5 hull points. I was thinking about doing a section at the bottem that lists the guns on the ship but again, kind of figure out guns will work first. Anyway, so the ship card.

    Then we have a couple pilot options:
    Col. Angle Deveroux.png Major Christopher Blair.png

    As you can see we have Col. Deveraux and Major Blair. They each have their own pilot skills, and their own effect. these would all be listed on their own sheets. You can then put any pilot on the ship card.

    excalibur-01-with deveroux.png
    Here we see the pilot sheet for Col. Deveraux equiped on an Excalibur and how the information lines up. She is armed with 3 heat seeker missiles. I neglected to make the mock ups for the missiles a seperate file but these are meant to be rough ideas anyway so there you go.

    Or we can equip Blair with Friend or Fire missiles in the Excalibur:

    excalibur-01-with blair.png
     
  20. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, I've got a list of guns - they're in Chapter 6.2.3 of the WCRPG Wiki. Here's a post to the topic of weapons in general within that chapter; the sub-section on guns comes up first. There's a similar sub-section on guns for capital ships in Chapter 7.2.2 as well. Both of those lists had their origins with the gun chart that LOAF compiled many moons ago for the CIC; I have that link somewhere within my archives but I don't know where it is off the top of my head. I imagine you could find it with a quick search.

    Bear in mind, the wiki version of the rules is the uncorrected proof version, so it may behoove you to download a PDF copy of the rules from the WCRPG wiki front page to check for any last minute changes.



    A card crafting mechanic could certainly be interesting. I'll have to see if any of my group has given thought to developing a crafter, and if so, see if they can share some insights with the process.
     

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