Wing Commander III

Confed said:
I'd think a better comparison would be Stalin. During World War II, he proved to be a strong leader & an essential ally to defeating the Nazis. But after the war, it became clear that he was a murderous tyrant. The World War brought out the best in him, just as the Kilrathi war brought out the best in Tolwyn.
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Tolwyn had elements of both tyrants, but Hitler has to be the better comparison because of the whole large scale "cleansing" of society based on physical traits thing. Stalin just purged his military leaders and a few million random peasants who got in the way of his plans.
 
The bio-weapon, the uniforms, the speech at the end of the game was the perverbial Cartoon Piano Of Obviousness - just so the lowliest person could point their finger and say he was a bad, bad man - not that Borst/DePalma wanted people to forever break Goodwin's Law or attempt to make a legit compairison to Hitler.
 
LeHah said:
The bio-weapon, the uniforms, the speech at the end of the game was the perverbial Cartoon Piano Of Obviousness - just so the lowliest person could point their finger and say he was a bad, bad man
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It's really not that simple. It seems to no matter how bad something is, there's always seems to be someone who think the idea was not bad, it was just poorly implemented, or not implemented at all, or corrupted, or that it’s overplayed propaganda. After all, as with most of such groups, the Black Lance wanted to “change mankind, make it better”. Even simplistic portrayed, the ideas behind the Black Lance are present, subtly, in real movements, much better disguised. Go to the root of evil and search more politically correct branches.

Utilitarianism, Collectivism, and that kind of thing. The value of a human life is measured by how useful it is for the Collective (Confederation). People outside Confed – or bellow standards – have no value whatsoever. In this case, the standard was genetics, but it can vary: race, religion, social class.
 
How can you possibly watch Tolwyn wearing an SS uniform, doing a Nazi salute in front of a big space swastika and talking about how they should annihilate inferior races and then stroke your chin and wonder about what they were trying to suggest there?
 
Delance said:
Go to the root of evil and search more politically correct branches.
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I don't need to stick my head in a sewer to know it stinks.
 
What I did was to point out more similarities than the most basic and obvious ones. One thing doesn't negate the other. That scene was full of references to make things still more evident, but the darker aspects of the Black Lance are more ideological and merely symbolic.

It's not that hard to find movies and games with similar references, but not always they go beyond that. If you film a Shakespeare play giving bad guys nazi helmets, everyone will get it. But the reference on WCIV was deeper than a mere visual reference.

And it’s not really the same. Tolwyn didn’t favor mankind, but in fact considered the Kirlathi superior, and Confed would be doomed by natural selection against a potentially superior race. The center of his plan was in the supposed inferiority of making, and its inability to “evolve” due to peace and morality. To change that, he planed to keep mankind in constant conflict (natural selection) and aid the process by the use of the GE Project and the Biological weapons. Not random weapons of terror, but part of a plan to alter mankind. Very sophisticated evil plan for a video game bad guy. Compare this with the Kilrathi more basic invade-plunder-enslave battle plant.
 
LeHah said:
I don't need to stick my head in a sewer to know it stinks.
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Then you'd agree it's a bad thing when people get stuff out of the sewer and try to pass it as a something else.
 
It's not that hard to find movies and games with similar references, but not always they go beyond that. If you film a Shakespeare play giving bad guys nazi helmets, everyone will get it. But the reference on WCIV was deeper than a mere visual reference.
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No, it didn't. There is absolutely nothing subtle about Wing Commander IV. What little symbolism it might contain is very, very blatant. The script writers didn't chew on the ends of their pencils and discuss what a great idea having Tolwyn act as a figure representing collectivism would be. Everything you've inferred is a result of overanalyzing something that no one put there in the first place - which is something you can theoretically do with any single idea and piece of art ever.

Hey, Hobbes' betrayal in Wing Commander III... well, that's clearly a statement to the failure of the French revolution... and when Jazz talks about pianos in Secret Missions 2, what the game is really doing is making a point about romantic subjectivism in the arts. And those big circle wings on the Dralthi? Don't even get me started on how they put those in there as a pun about circles of hell in the Divine Comedy...

Wing Commander is pulp fiction - claiming it's especially intelligent because we enjoy it demeans both we and it.
 
Depends on what manner of intelligence it's approached with. However 'intelligent' it maybe is open to the viewer.
 
Everything you've inferred is a result of overanalyzing something that no one put there in the first place - which is something you can theoretically do with any single idea and piece of art ever.
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Overanalyzing is something you can theoretically claim about any interpretation about any artistic work. It's not a good argument because I can demonstrate that my assertion of WCIV is almost completely based on statements present on the game itself.

From the top of my head:

  • Tolwyn didn’t favor mankind - Tolwyn: "Our victory over the Kilrathi was a Fluke."

  • But in fact considered the Kirlathi superior - Tolwyn: "The Kilrathi understood this...", "and so shall we if we continue fighting!" and also Blair implies that later, with "Why can't we be more like the Kilrathi?"

  • Confed would be doomed by natural selection against a potentially superior race. - Tolwyn: "We must be prepared", "a temporary purchase of time"

  • The center of his plan was in the supposed inferiority of making - Tolwyn: "Not a clear verdict of superiority."

  • And its inability to “evolve” due to peace and morality. - Tolwyn: "We've no goals, no focus. We've grown complacent and confused".

  • To change that, he planed to keep mankind in constant conflict (natural selection) Tolwyn: "Progress only comes through struggle. Fighting keeps us fit. Conflict ensures our readyness and our survival".

  • More importantly: - Tolwyn: "The strong shall survive - Primary universal law".

The strong must rule, that’s the most important law of the universe, that’s the way society must be organized to obtain progress, and progress is the most important goal, the weak must be either ruled or destroyed in the name of society. That’s a good definition of a totalitarian collectivist ideology, and Tolwyn explicitly defends each one of those points. That’s not overanalyzing, those things are stated literally. It barely requires any interpretation at all.

This is not symbolism, but direct, blatant references to a specific kind of ideology.

I don’t know what was going on inside authors' head, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s there.
 
These are not blatant references to a specific kind of ideology, it's scene-chewing acting that, again, was very clearly written and performed only to beat the audience over the head with the fact that yes, he's supposed to be *Space Hitler*.
 
Yes, Hitler had an Ideology in mind when he tried to perfect a master race. Yes, these ideologies were even present in north america (forced sterilization of challenged people etc) but it was completely dropped and never mentiond much after ww2.

Hovewer to say that wc4's writers had this in mind rather than just referencing hitler is grasping at straws. They referenced Hitler plain and simple. Any deeper meaning is because of the hitler connection, rather than a deliberate creation on the writers.
 
I agree with you LOAF. I do have a question that's been bothering me. Tolwyn mentioned the "Programs before his time" meaning the gen-select bioweapons and the super humans. Is stuff like those progarms ever mentioned in any earlier materials or games?

-Rance-
 
Bandit LOAF said:
These are not blatant references to a specific kind of ideology, it's scene-chewing acting that, again, was very clearly written and performed only to beat the audience over the head with the fact that yes, he's supposed to be *Space Hitler*.
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I think Tolwyn's one hell of a lot smarter then Hitler.
 
You need a certain amount of intelligence to pull of what hitler did. So i would say that Hitler was a hell of a lot smarter then you, Fruitcake...
 
Despite the man being the 20th Century's face for pure, unexplainable evil - you have to admit that his ability for public speaking and to manipulate people was astounding. The man pissed charisma.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
These are not blatant references to a specific kind of ideology, it's scene-chewing acting that, again, was very clearly written and performed only to beat the audience over the head with the fact that yes, he's supposed to be *Space Hitler*.
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It's ironic that I remember a debate on IRC where members of the WC community argued that Tolwyn was not a supposed to be Space Hitler. People complained when some magazine called the Black Lance Space Nazis. Even more important is that fact that when I argued on agwc that Tolwyn wanted to seize control of Confed and impose a dictatorship, you refuted it. It was years ago, but I do recall a concept that Tolwyn was some defender of democracy and that the plot of WCIV would not imply a totalitarian state, which of course doesn’t make much sense.

But all this don’t change anything. So what if there was some bad acting, or if the authors supposedly didn’t care? It is clearly there. References like Darwinism as the primary universal law or progress troughs as the ultimate goal of society are not a crystal clear nazi reference.

This is part as to why I consider WCIV not only to be the best written WC game, but also above the average for a Video Game or a Space Opera. And not only because I like it. I like WC and Priv, but the story is not as good.
 
Delance said:
  • But in fact considered the Kirlathi superior - Tolwyn: "The Kilrathi understood this...", "and so shall we if we continue fighting!" and also Blair implies that later, with "Why can't we be more like the Kilrathi?"
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You know Blair was quoting Tolwyns views when he said that?

Ed
 
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