Wing Commander III

[LeHah]

It's ironic that I remember a debate on IRC where members of the WC community argued that Tolwyn was not a supposed to be Space Hitler.

Unless those people were LOAF or Chris or Death - thats moot. Why? Those people could've been any number of people that could've passed through our halls and not all of them are rocket scientists, if you know what I mean.

People complained when some magazine called the Black Lance Space Nazis.

Remember that special interest group that tried to sue a bunch of major corporations because they used slaves about 150 years ago? That complaint is about as valid as whining that someone slandered a fictional clandestine group of soldiers that are clad in black uniforms with a lightning bolt (which is obviously loosely shaped like an 'S') and talk about things like genocide and Darwinism.

Even more important is that fact that when I argued on agwc that Tolwyn wanted to seize control of Confed and impose a dictatorship, you refuted it.

Because theres no evidence of that. If you're going to make an example, it's best to cite it from a literal sense. All Tolwyn said he wanted to do was help prepare for a forthcoming war by 'thinning the heard', so to speak. He said absolutely nothing of a political career.

It was years ago, but I do recall a concept that Tolwyn was some defender of democracy and that the plot of WCIV would not imply a totalitarian state, which of course doesn’t make much sense.

At this stage, a concept is about as good as a rumor or an insinuation. Theres nothing to imply any of that at any point in the game. Tolwyn's character was knocked down a few notches to turn an interesting, dimensional character into a Republic serial villian. All he needs is the Snidley Whiplash mustache and he'd be all set.

References like Darwinism as the primary universal law or progress troughs as the ultimate goal of society are not a crystal clear nazi reference.

But his methods are, as well as the costumes, the speech he gives about humanity at the end of the game. Not to mention the speech Paulson gives Blair if he doesn't defect to the Border Worlds.

This is part as to why I consider WCIV not only to be the best written WC game, but also above the average for a Video Game or a Space Opera. And not only because I like it. I like WC and Priv, but the story is not as good.

I like WC4 a lot too but it's not some artful, lofty, "thinking man's" script either. I think you'd find something with this much subtly in an episode of Andromeda or Mutant X.

 

[Delance]

You know Blair was quoting Tolwyns views when he said that?

Blair was not quoting Tolwyn, he was exposing him.

Because theres no evidence of that.

How is there not? Either he's a space nazi or he's a champion of democracy. For Tolwyn to be a space nazi just to prove WCIV is stupid and for him to be a champion of democracy on a debate about his character doesn’t make much sense.

But his methods are, as well as the costumes, the speech he gives about humanity at the end of the game. Not to mention the speech Paulson gives Blair if he doesn't defect to the Border Worlds.

Yes, but the point is that, usually, costumes do the trick. When someone is making an effort, they even throw the methods in. But on this case, they really dug deep enough on the ideology to portray it as a recognizable collectivist ideology. Claims that it’s stupid only supports the concept that collectivism is indeed stupid. The fact that WCIV makes a point against the concept of darwinism as a primary universal law by which society should organize itself is meaningful.

I like WC4 a lot too but it's not some artful, lofty, "thinking man's" script either. I think you'd find something with this much subtly in an episode of Andromeda or Mutant X.

Well, since when does subtly is the only standard? A lot of epic stories are not very subtle, but they are still exceptional. How subtle is Lord of the Rings and Star Wars when the evil guys have titles like "Dark Lord"?

WC is not that different in the sense that it does put real world things on a sci-fi universe. It is probably not a very good description of how actual space combat will happen on the 27th Century, but it works great as WWII on Space. And while this was aimed mostly at combat and generic military themes, WCIV made some incision about totalitarians and collectivism, something that is very significant to World War II but was barely touched by the other games.

WCA and Fleet Action, for example deals with pacifism confronted with hard reality much better then the media did during the Iraq war, which is not hard.

Besides, I'm not claiming it's some sort of genius work. Of course it has some weak parts, and the ending was over the top. All I said is that it was better then the average video game and space movie, which, again, is not hard.

That being said, I do think the bad guys on WCIV seemed more threatening when they didn’t have a uniform. It’s much harder to destroy ideas corrupting the ranks, which is a nearly invisible enemy, than evil guys wearing uniforms.

 

[LeHah]

How is there not? Either he's a space nazi or he's a champion of democracy.

If you think commiting acts of genocide are sure signs of democracy, you need to get your head examined immedeately.

For Tolwyn to be a space nazi just to prove WCIV is stupid

I'm not the one waving the banner saying that Wing Commander IV has deep and meaningful subplots. I'm saying it's straight-forward, clear cut and easily understood. I'd go as far as saying that if it were a movie, it would really be talking down it's nose to the audience.

But on this case, they really dug deep enough on the ideology to portray it as a recognizable collectivist ideology.

The problem here is that you're taking characterizations that are common with various ideologies and trying to connect them. Tolwyn isn't written to be a figurehead for the evils of Calvinists, Communists and the radical right. It's written to be "Look! He's evil, like a Nazi! Boy, aren't Nazis evil! Well, now they're in space! We gotta stop em!"

Claims that it’s stupid only supports the concept that collectivism is indeed stupid.

Moot point. If I say that the movie "Pearl Harbor" is stupid (and it is), that does nothing for any concept of collectivism. It's just saying Pearl Harbor is stupid.

The fact that WCIV makes a point against the concept of darwinism as a primary universal law by which society should organize itself is meaningful.

I can get that same meaning by watching any number of low-brow programming. Hell, I could probably find a World War II FPS game with that in there somewhere.

Well, since when does subtly is the only standard? A lot of epic stories are not very subtle, but they are still exceptional. How subtle is Lord of the Rings and Star Wars when the evil guys have titles like "Dark Lord"?

They're one and the same. All those works you cited as well as WC4 clearly define the lines of good and evil to make things more accessable to an audience. Thats why Tolwyn is Mr Galactic Nazi and not, say, Ludwig Feuerbach 2525.

WCIV made some incision about totalitarians and collectivism, something that is very significant to World War II but was barely touched by the other games.

I don't think video games, as a whole, are a very good medium to be teaching people about the evils of the world. I don't see Mortal Kombat teaching kids Protestant Liberalism vs Fundamentalism arguements, do I?

WCA and Fleet Action, for example deals with pacifism confronted with hard reality much better then the media did during the Iraq war, which is not hard.

Well, WC is meant to be a comic book adaptation of WWII in Space so trying to parlay it and roll it over into the Iraq War is moot. No two wars are the same, politcally, socially or anything else "ly".

It should also be noted that FA is hardcore conservative. It's very "spartan" in it's views where lines are very clearly drawn - the heros are all battle-hardened soldiers while the public is either seen as naive, too young or traitors.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

It's ironic that I remember a debate on IRC where members of the WC community argued that Tolwyn was not a supposed to be Space Hitler. People complained when some magazine called the Black Lance Space Nazis. Even more important is that fact that when I argued on agwc that Tolwyn wanted to seize control of Confed and impose a dictatorship, you refuted it. It was years ago, but I do recall a concept that Tolwyn was some defender of democracy and that the plot of WCIV would not imply a totalitarian state, which of course doesn’t make much sense.

Members... of the WC community?! Well, that shows me. If members of the Wing Commander community think something, then the painfully obvious can't be true!

In terms of arguing as to Tolwyn's "goals", this is almost done from the perspective of the Wing Commander universe at large. There have now been two whole novels dedicated to trying to repair the mess that the Wing Commander IV game made with Space Nazi Tolwyn - if we were having a "Tolwyn's goals" argument then I'd certainly cite all the things that these novels establish. We're not - we're talking about the lack of depth in the Wing Commander IV game, not the extensive lengths at which other things have tried to retcon this away.

But all this don’t change anything. So what if there was some bad acting, or if the authors supposedly didn’t care? It is clearly there. References like Darwinism as the primary universal law or progress troughs as the ultimate goal of society are not a crystal clear nazi reference.

How can you possibly sit through Tolwyn's speech and not understand what the very, very obvious point was?

The big reveal in the game is that he's wearing a black SS uniform, that his evil organization uses the SS lightning bolt logo and that he's preaching eugenics to a group of soldiers who respond with the Nazi salute.

THIS IS NOT SUBTLE SOCIAL COMMENTARY!

It should also be noted that FA is hardcore conservative. It's very "spartan" in it's views where lines are very clearly drawn - the heros are all battle-hardened soldiers while the public is either seen as naive, too young or traitors.

I really don't think that's what FA is. I know it's the label we liked to assign it back in the newsgroup days, based on the fact that Dr. Forstchen was a hardcore Republican... but the "military knows best" philosophy in the novel really isn't conservatism at all.

 

[LeHah]

I really don't think that's what FA is. I know it's the label we liked to assign it back in the newsgroup days, based on the fact that Dr. Forstchen was a hardcore Republican... but the "military knows best" philosophy in the novel really isn't conservatism at all.

It's obvious that Dr Forstchen's own beliefs were echoed in the book though. I didn't want to say "republican" because I didn't want to have someone read into something that wasn't there - namely the shrill sound of "all republicans are war mongers", which seems to be a rally call for "liberal" college students everywhere.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I don't think it's really what 'conservative' means, though. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in American politics willing to say that they think the military would do a better job of running the government (G)

 

[LeHah]

I'm going more on what the public spectrum quantifies "republican" and "conservative" more than what they actually are. (Granted, I can only speculate what people outside of Fairfield County, Connecticut see - but a lot of people around here see moderate to hardcore conservatives as bible-thumping, gun-toting zombies without a soul.)

(It should also be noted that Fairfield County Connecticut allows me to live there - which should speak volumes of their intelligence in the first place.)

 

[AD]

It's obvious that Dr Forstchen's own beliefs were echoed in the book though. I didn't want to say "republican" because I didn't want to have someone read into something that wasn't there - namely the shrill sound of "all republicans are war mongers", which seems to be a rally call for "liberal" college students everywhere.

Hehehe. You could as easily twist wc4 into a commentary on how tolwyn represents Bush and that his administration is using terrorist activities (that they knew about or even perpetrated) as an excuse to wage war and take control of resources... Such were the conspiracy theories floating about... especialy prior to the last election.

Even if you agreed with this (which I don't), It would be idiotic to suggest that the writers had such ambitions when writing the script.

 

[Edfilho]

I think you people didn't understand what Delance was complaining about... Maybe he wasn't clear.
AFAICT, he is argueing that although LOAF says today that it is obvious that Tolwyn is a Space Nazi in WC4, many years ago he (LOAF) denied that it was the case, and that LOAF debated anyone who said that. I know that Delance always saw WC4 Tolwyn as a Space Nazi, he is not saying that WC4 Tolwyn is a champion of democracy. It is kinda stupid that we are debating the debate. ugh.

BTW, I see FA as highly biased in the sense that the only reasonable people we see in the book (and also in AS) are the battle hardened military types. We meet not a single inteligent civilian. The scene in the moon bar during tyhe False Peace is an example, and so is the behaviour of all civilians in the government, both in FA and AS. That is pretty obvious. Only Banbridge, Richards, Tolwyn etc, have any clarity of vision and purpose. they are the only ones who can see the real threats and worry about the right things. all civvies are eithers hippies who hate war and love bunnies and have sex with aliens, or greedy sleazy bastards who can sacrifice half of confed territory (or spacetory) just to nail a good contract, and can also talk their way out of the battle of Repleetah...

Delance, please correct me if I assumed anything wrong regarding you position.

 

[LeHah]

Hehehe. You could as easily twist wc4 into a commentary on how tolwyn represents Bush and that his administration is using terrorist activities (that they knew about or even perpetrated) as an excuse to wage war and take control of resources.

No, you couldn't. You're just agreeing with that stupid compairison that somehow Bush is a "nazi" yet he doesn't do anything remotely similar to that political parties terrible acts against humanity.

Such were the conspiracy theories floating about...

I don't think even Fox Mulder would buy into that one.

 

[Edfilho]

Yeah, as much as I'm against Bush, calling him a nazi is stupid. I hate when people are stupid, no matter what "side" they are.

 

[powell99]

Amen to that. I hate bush but damn I have to listen about how he is a Nazi everyday...pray that you never have to visit a liberal school in SF. I really mean it PRAY!!!!!

 

[AD]

No, you couldn't. You're just agreeing with that stupid compairison that somehow Bush is a "nazi" yet he doesn't do anything remotely similar to that political parties terrible acts against humanity.

I don't know if you misunderstood, or if my comment was vague but I didn't mean to imply that I thought Bush was a Nazi. I do not think that.

I do know of a buch of people who were trying to imply that. (about the american invovlment in Iraq and elsewhere). The conspiracy theories, no matter how improbable, exist. There are even a number of not reliable documentaries that supposedly expose the connections between the bush family and the Bin ladens. They, of course, are all the sort of propaganda that you were suggesting.

But, Like I thought I was saying: That kind of connection is Idiotic. And to suggest That (like I thought i had) WC4 is about bush being a nazi is Utterly, and profoundly, moronic.

Borst and Depalma never suggested this any more than any other "profound " statement about ideologies, beyond that Tolwyn was a space nazi.

So I guess I was agreeing with you.

 

[powell99]

All in all it is a good debate. But Tolwyn is not the problem with WCIV the UBW is the problem. I mean they appear out of thin air. So all of the sudden I am supposed to sympithise with them. The *only* thing I like about the BW are the pilots. Oh and Vindicators....I guess I like two things then.

 

[Death]

That you like the Vindicator is a sure sign that you're not right in the head.

 

[LeHah]

I mean they appear out of thin air. So all of the sudden I am supposed to sympithise with them.

I'd like to think a massive conspiracy against them and blaming them for various acts of piracy is enough to want to "do the right thing".

 

[Quarto]

I'd like to think a massive conspiracy against them and blaming them for various acts of piracy is enough to want to "do the right thing".

...And in case it isn't, the writers thump you over the head with Eisen's defection to give you that final hint .

Though, jokes aside, I'm not sure what you're talking about - I don't think things are anywhere near that obvious, early in WC4 (which is ironic, given how that Space Nazi thing unfolds later on).

Place yourself in the head of someone playing WC4 for the first time, having never seen the all-revealing "Tolwyn's evil" trailer, and having chosen not to see the optional Seether arrival scene... at the time when you're asked to defect for the first time, what possible reason would you have to believe that the Border Worlders are the victims rather than the villains? There's no indication of any massive conspiracy, and they seem more than guilty of various acts of piracy - you've rescued a kidnapped biochemist, helped retake a hijacked spacelab, and had to deal with a "convoy" of armed & dangerous cruisers mucking about in Confed space, with never so much as a single hint that these missions are bogus.

 

[AD]

The first time I played wc4 I knew tolwyn was up to no good... Heck, I had agrudge against him since wc2. But I was shocked to learn eisen was defecting. In fact untill I had played through all the options once, the first couple of missions felt really dull, almost boring. Now that I understand all of what's going on behind the scenes, the not so subtle hinting that eisen isn't happy with something going on is all the more obvious (though the first couple sets of missions still feel like they drag on a bit.

That's part of why the game is great (though sometimes flawed). The first time through I was truly conflicted about turning my back on confed so to speak (although it was really in an effort to save confed from internal elements under Tolwyn)

 

[powell99]

Im not saying I thought the UBW was evil. I was saying that they sucked at being introduced.

 

[Delance]

If you think commiting acts of genocide are sure signs of democracy, you need to get your head examined immedeately.

I was arguing the exact opposite of that.

Members... of the WC community?! Well, that shows me. If members of the Wing Commander community think something, then the painfully obvious can't be true!

I'm not sure he remembers it, and that’s why I didn’t want to mention it, but Chris was one members who was making quite a strong point that the Black Lance are NOT supposed to be Space Nazis, and that the clothing, salutes and logo had nothing to do with it. Maybe he changed his mind, maybe not, it doesn't matter.

The reason I mentioned the discussion was not to confirm it, but to establish a primary and reliable source that Black Lance = Space Nazis is not sure a clear cut case.

Also, when I mentioned that Tolwyn was trying to implement a totalitarian dictatorship, you claimed he wasn’t. Now you claim he’s obvious and unquestionably Space Hitler. But shouldn't space Hitler be trying make a totalitarian dictatorship?

Yeah, he was trying to impose a dictatorship, and the references are quite obvious. All of this is true, and does not conflict with the rest of the point I was making.

In terms of arguing as to Tolwyn's "goals", this is almost done from the perspective of the Wing Commander universe at large. There have now been two whole novels dedicated to trying to repair the mess that the Wing Commander IV game made with Space Nazi Tolwyn - if we were having a "Tolwyn's goals" argument then I'd certainly cite all the things that these novels establish. We're not - we're talking about the lack of depth in the Wing Commander IV game, not the extensive lengths at which other things have tried to retcon this away.

Depth is a subjective thing. It’s kind of like Star Wars. Some think it’s shallow and silly while others find deep meaning. The same applies here, I suppose. But the meaning is there, intended or not. It’s not fruit of overanalyzing, given the reasonable amount of quite literal mentions of a lot of specific concepts

If Confed had a stockpile of black uniforms and bio-weapons locked down on an hidden base on Axius, and a bunch of former G.E. pilots drinking on some dusty border worlds bar, it would be much less problematic.

And it was not just about eugenics, it was merely part of the whole thing. Even today there’s a lot of interest groups defending social engineering and behavior modification. Not on a genetic level, but on a cultural level. Not via direct violence, but by coercion of the State, rules and regulations. That is relevant, and it’s based on the idea of progress as the ultimate goal of a society. Also present is the collectivist concept that greater good, as defined by a nebulous group of specialists, should be enforced on everyone. That wouldn’t make a good space opera, perhaps. But the basis of these ideals is not that different from the ones Tolwyn mentioned on the game.

So, on a metaphorical leval, intended or not, even if not as widely perceived by most people, WCIV does convey a strong anti-collectivist message.

How can you possibly sit through Tolwyn's speech and not understand what the very, very obvious point was?

So what? Obvious doesn’t mean shallow or unintelligent. A very shallow and idiotic concept can be expressed by a intricate and hermetic speech. Complex and deep ideas can be conveyed on a speech easy to understand.

Being heavy handed and over the top also doesn’t mean it’s stupid or has no profound meaning.

The big reveal in the game is that he's wearing a black SS uniform, that his evil organization uses the SS lightning bolt logo and that he's preaching eugenics to a group of soldiers who respond with the Nazi salute.

So any book or movie about WWII that shows a nazi cerimony is shallow and idiotic?

And no, that’s the obvious reveal. It’s the more obvious part, because, you know, this is a video game, so it must be something simple to understand. That’s why Sith use RED EVIL ligthsabers, and that’s why Darth Vader’s fighter was different on Star Wars. That something is obvious or relies on visual aids and symbols doesn’t mean that there’s no complexity.

THIS IS NOT SUBTLE SOCIAL COMMENTARY!

Being subtle was never under discussion. So what if it was an obvious social commentary? That wouldn’t make it stupid, and a subtle commentary is not necessarily smart. Lots of art are filled with subtle idiotic social commentary.

Not only that, but the presence of an obvious commentary, like the use of the uniforms, logo and salutes does not implicate automatically on a shallow plot, and does not erase other references made in the game.