What is with the Nephilim?

[Earthworm]

Even a hundred kills is unrealistic. But if there would be missions in which you only got one or two kills, and sometimes none at all it would be even worse than scoring 20 kills.

 

[Wolf Dog]

Thank goodness Origin threw realism out the window. It may hurt the parts of me that love realistic sci-fi, but realism sucks. In fact, the reason we play WC is to escape reality. God knows if we really were in WC, we would give anything to be people back in 2000 that could just go to school/work instead of facing the day to day reality of fighting in endless wars watching friend after friend die.

 

[Wedge009]

Hmm, interesting discussion.

Though I always think it's a little strange to use destroyers as escorts. If they all tended to use CapShip missiles, it would certainly put the 'destroy' back into their name in much the same way that the Star Destroyers in Star Wars are feared.

And I agree, sometimes I think we try to push too much realism into our discussions. Bit like how that Moonstar guy was whinging about.

 

[Wedge009]

And it's true how the games are totally unrealistic with the one-man(woman)-navy thing. Recalling the tactics in the WC3 manual, I'd tend to fly like a Maniac in the games <cringes>, but in 'reality' Flint's choices are probably better.

 

[Wedge009]

Another thought. Corvettes never seemed that useful to me. They tended to lack the heavy defences of capships, and the manoevrability of fighters. Sort of the worst of both worlds. And yes, I do realise they have better firepower than fighters.

 

[Quarto]

Another thought. Corvettes never seemed that useful to me. They tended to lack the heavy defences of capships, and the manoevrability of fighters. Sort of the worst of both worlds. And yes, I do realise they have better firepower than fighters.

A Venture class corvette can infiltrate enemy territory, serve as a cheap but effective border patrol ship (since it has a better radar array than fighters do), or transport diplomats to and from a dangerous hotspot at the speed of 250kps rather than an ordinary transport's 100-150kps, in much better comfort and safety than a shuttle. Its high (for a capship) speed allows it to move between capship engagements much faster than larger capships can, thus giving the commander of a large strike force great flexibility.
A Kamekh class corvette, while slower than a Venture, can still be used for border patrol duties, infiltrating enemy territory, and - thanks to its torpedo payload - in strikes against hostile capital ships. Furthermore, its formidable armament of flak cannons makes this cheap (and, frankly, expendable) vessel an excellent way to strengthen the defences of a starbase, capital ship, or transport convoy.
A... err... Kilrathi Corvette, circa '69, can do all the things mentioned for the above-mentioned classes, and can do them much better, since its defences are quite impressive (especially that damned rear turret

), and because it can carry a skipper missile.

Do not speak ill of corvettes

.

 

[Shane]

End Run did a nice job of explaining the benefits of the Corvette. They were pretty much traget practice (especially it seemed the Confed Corvettes for the cats.) i agree with the consensus that the toughest corvettes were the WCIII, though the ones in Prophecy could be tough depending on the ship you were flying. If you had a bomber you had the rocket pods which would tear through the shields and then your guns (or a couple extra rockets) would finish them off. They did not have that rear gun, but they were much more manuverable, which meant focusing on one point was much more difficult.

 

[Quarto]

Yes, well, whoever designed the Barracudas wasn't thinking straight. Corvettes are capships, albeit small ones; they need rear defences to survive.
Still, as an offensive weapon the Barracudas are effective, so they're not too bad either.

 

[Earthworm]

Very true. If they had rear turrets, they'd be at least as dangerous as the Kilrathi corvettes from Prophecy, those guns they have are prety strong. And they're quite effective at taking out your wingman, especially in SO.

 

[Penguin]

Shane: The WCP corvette does have that rear turret. My personal belief is that the WCP corvettes are tougher than the WC3 corvette because you can't torpedo it or destroy it's turrets. Also it's guns are more damaging than the ones on the WC3 corvette.

Quarto/Earthworm: The Barracuda's a joke. Even if it had rear guns it still wouldn't be much of a threat. It wouldn't last long against the guns on the Confed capships. If you're in a fighter, attack it's flanks. It simply has puny defensive fire coverage and proportionally weak shields. It also doesn't seem to have any missile armament of any sort.
Not fitting rear defensive systems seems to be standard operating procedure among the bugs. Makes you wonder just how smart they are.
To stop the Barracuda getting my wingmen I would send them after the fighters then erase the Barracudas myself.

Frankly I just don't see what's so hard about the WC3 corvette. It's gun fodder. It's just another kill. That rear turret is easy to get rid of. As I've mentioned before line up on it's 6 and match it's heading, then open fire. You can't possibly miss the rear turret if you do that.

 

[Quarto]

Frankly I just don't see what's so hard about the WC3 corvette. It's gun fodder. It's just another kill. That rear turret is easy to get rid of. As I've mentioned before line up on it's 6 and match it's heading, then open fire. You can't possibly miss the rear turret if you do that.

Yep, it's that easy - if you can aim, which is not exactly my strong point. I usually get less than 50%

.

 

[Earthworm]

The Barracuda's a joke. Even if it had rear guns it still wouldn't be much of a threat. It wouldn't last long against the guns on the Confed capships.

A single Barracuda is not supposed to go against a Confed capship. More like a small squadron of them. In any case, it’s guns are tough, and more than once they chewed straight through my armor, even in the Vamp.

If you're in a fighter, attack it's flanks. It simply has puny defensive fire coverage and proportionally weak shields. It also doesn't seem to have any missile armament of any sort.

I do belive it has some hardpoints, at least in SO, but they’re more directed towards anti capship use. Anyhow, first you have to get to their flanks, and if you fly right next to them they can still give you quite a lot of damage. And like I said earlier, they’re quite effective at taking out your wingman.

Not fitting rear defensive systems seems to be standard operating procedure among the bugs. Makes you wonder just how smart they are.

The bug ships are supposed to be living things, so there could always be some restrictions as to what weapons they can have.

To stop the Barracuda getting my wingmen I would send them after the fighters then erase the Barracudas myself.

Perhaps you don’t mind having to order all your wingman to attack someone else with all them missiles flying around and blowing up right next to me, but I do.

Frankly I just don't see what's so hard about the WC3 corvette. It's gun fodder. It's just another kill. That rear turret is easy to get rid of. As I've mentioned before line up on it's 6 and match it's heading, then open fire. You can't possibly miss the rear turret if you do that.

You wouldn’t happen to be playing on the Rookie difficulty would ye lad?

It’s guns are tough all right, something that seems like a Tachyon, and four Lasers is quite a dangerous package. All of those guns have long range, the Tachyon has some great damage potential, and the Lasers have an excelent refire rate. And yes, it is possible to miss the turret, at least if you try to avoid getting all your front armor peeled away.

 

[Penguin]

Quarto: According to WCP my aim is also at best about 50%.

Earthworm: Even a squadron of Barracudas would have trouble eliminating a Confed capship. Their shields aren't strong enough to repel capship fire on a sustained basis & their energy weapons don't penetrate capships shields. Also Confed now has Wasp interceptors dedicated to intercpeting anti-capship munitions like torps and capship missiles.

Due to the placement of it's weapons the Barracuda can only attack in one direction. So attacking it's flanks isn't as hard as you make it out to be.

As for the living ship stuff. Let's be honest about it - what would you rather have? An inorganic artificially made ship with complete defensive fire coverage or an organic, living ship capable of firing in only one direction? Considering the level of bug technical sophistication the possibility that they can only produce vessels of an organic nature is ludicrous. Sure the bugs may and probably do think differently to us but look at it practically. Even if [speculation] organic ships are cheaper, faster to build, require less resource input, etc [speculation ends] these factors would not make up for the increased attrition rate. Even if the bugs don't care how many of them die to achieve any given objective the level of casualties would make it hard for them to learn from their experiences. Note the number of bugs escaping from your patrols. None. How about the wormhole? They lost an entire fleet before it was closed. How many survivors do you think they had? Not that many. Quite simply put if the bugs feel they can limit themselves to subpar ships and expect to win wars, they're very mistaken. And I seriously doubt that Confed is the first spacefaring race that they've ever had a armed conflict with. In order to improve your modus operandi you need a reasonably large number of veterans to teach the newbies & develop your tactics. Taking electronic readings & examing paper statistics isn't enough.

As for ordering you wingmen try this: broadcast a distress signal. This should get everyone dodging in your direction, making them harder to hit and giving you a few more seconds to nail that Barracuda. Besides as their wing commander you should be willing to make a few sacrfices for your pilots

I'll admit it. I usually fly on Rookie level. But I have tried my tactics on the harder difficulty levels (ace and nightmare) for WC3 and WCP & they still work. True the corvette does pack a considerable punch but it's accuracy is not so great that you get hit even if you dodge. About the rear turret. That turret is placed right in the middle of the corvette's 6. What you do is you fly behind it to some distance. As you are passing directly behind it you pull sharply into it's line of flight. If you've put yourself in the right position, that is right behind it parallel to it's nose, then open fire you should get the turret. You will have a few seconds to squeeze off your shots before getting hit in return but then that's what dodging is for.
Phew!!!

[This message has been edited by Penguin (edited October 05, 2000).]

 

[Earthworm]

Due to the placement of it's weapons the Barracuda can only attack in one direction. So attacking it's flanks isn't as hard as you make it out to be.

I'm not saying attacking the flanks is hard, I'm saying getting into position to attack the flanks can be hard at times.

As for the living ship stuff. Let's be honest about it - what would you rather have? An inorganic artificially made ship with complete defensive fire coverage or an organic, living ship capable of firing in only one direction?

The bugs don't have any capships capable to fire in only once direction.

Anyhow, the fact is that the organic ships can have some advantages. The fact that the bugs have so many ships that they can throw at us could be because they don't have to build a ship from scratch.

Considering the level of bug technical sophistication the possibility that they can only produce vessels of an organic nature is ludicrous.

But no one is saying that. And like I said organic ships may be cheaper, faster and overall better in most areas than any other ships they can build.

Even if [speculation] organic ships are cheaper, faster to build, require less resource input, etc [speculation ends] these factors would not make up for the increased attrition rate. Even if the bugs don't care how many of them die to achieve any given objective the level of casualties would make it hard for them to learn from their experiences.

OK, let's look at it this way. If for the cost of one "standard" cruiser they can build 4 organic ones, and assuming that they don't have a problem with getting any bugs to serve on those ships, they'd have 4 prety damn good cruisers from what we can see in Prophecy. They'll be able to overpower a Confed cruiser in no time.

Quite simply put if the bugs feel they can limit themselves to subpar ships and expect to win wars, they're very mistaken.

And why do you assume that their subpar? Because the AI that controls them is not that good?

I usually fly on Rookie level. But True the corvette does pack a considerable punch but it's accuracy is not so great that you get hit even if you dodge. About the rear turret. That turret is placed right in the middle of the corvette's 6. What you do is you fly behind it to some distance. As you are passing directly behind it you pull sharply into it's line of flight. If you've put yourself in the right position, that is right behind it parallel to it's nose, then open fire you should get the turret.

Belive me, I've tried something similar plenty of times. The corvette is a small ship, it's turrets are damn small, and I'll have to be prety close to hit it, unless I'm flying the Arrow. But if I am in the Arrow my shields won't last too long. And from my experience it's turret accuracy is very good.



[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited October 05, 2000).]

 

[Penguin]

Earthworm: What's so hard about flying to the side of the Barracuda? Remember that you are faster than it is.

The statement "organic, living ship capable of firing in only one direction," contains an error, which I obviously missed in my edit. Anyways what I meant it to say is "organic, living ship incapable of covering every possible approach vector."

And now we touch on the quantity versus quality debate

You've stated that the bugs could overwhelm us with their numbers. Considering our experience in WCP that is yet to be proven. The bugs outnumbered us then and we still beat them. What I was getting at is you can't sacrifice certain indicators of quality for quantity. In this case the quality indicator is complete defensive systems.
Besides I think you're forgetting WCP's infamous plasma weapon systems

I believe the bug ships to be subpar because, with 1 exception, they are unable to defend themselves against anything attacking from behind. This is a blatantly obvious design fault in that in WCP you have to destroy a ship's engines to kill it. Therefore it doesn't take a military genius to realize that potential hostiles are going to be attacking from the rear. The way they design their ships with the giant exhaust vent taking up the entire rear section means that turrets on the rest of the ship can't provide coverage. It also forces attackers to attack from the rear because that is the only way to get a clear shot of the engine.

And now to the infamous corvette, the David of the WCU

This is where the skill factor comes in. Now I don't claim to be a great pilot but in this case I do well enough. You have to move fast and your sense of where you are in relation to where the corvette is has to be picture perfect. Getting rid of that turret is reasonably easy if you know what you are doing exactly.
I'm afraid that all my emphasis on the rear turret has been somewhat misleading. I originally advised Saturnye to waste the turrets as a method of making corvette wasting easier for him. As for me I don't usually go out of my way wasting turrets unless I absolutely have to. In the case of the corvette I usually maintain strafing runs & patiently chip through it's defenses.
It's turret accuracy is good. Some of the best I've seen for a capship. But if you dodge & roll you shouldn't have too much of a problem. As for the difficulty levels these increase the damage sustained not the accuracy.

[This message has been edited by Penguin (edited October 05, 2000).]

 

[Earthworm]

Earthworm: What's so hard about flying to the side of the Barracuda? Remember that you are faster than it is.

Many times you'll have to fly right by it. Which will give the turrets plenty of time to hit you. And it's even worse if there are two or three 'cudas next to each other. While you're behind one taking it out, the other two will fry your ass.

Anyways what I meant it to say is "organic, living ship incapable of covering every possible approach vector."

But at least they can fire better at all the other vectors. Let's take something like the Confed Hades class for example. It's turrets are placed in a way that'll allow it to shoot everywhere, but if you have only one or two guns firing on a ship they won't destroy it quickly. Maybe the bugs figured it's better to toast a few ships that are near the bridge of a capship, instead of just scraping off the paint job on all fighters around it.

You've stated that the bugs could overwhelm us with their numbers. Considering our experience in WCP that is yet to be proven. The bugs outnumbered us then and we still beat them.

And now we touch on the RI versus AI debate.

As most WC fans know, all WC games are easier than real space combar would be, and Prophecy is one of the easiest in the series. It shouldn't be the way it was. More of your wingmates should have died, the Midway should have suffered much more damage. Anyhow, while they had as outnumbered, and we managed to defeat them, a second alien fleet had set up a second wormhole in Proxima which is one or two jumps away from Sol.

What I was getting at is you can't sacrifice certain indicators of quality for quantity. In this case the quality indicator is complete defensive systems.
Besides I think you're forgetting WCP's infamous plasma weapon systems

OK, please disregard what I said about being able to build more organic ships, it's speculation anyway.

Point is that the alien capships, even with their flaws are still very effective, some of them at least as much as their Confed counter parts.

I believe the bug ships to be subpar because, with 1 exception, they are unable to defend themselves against anything attacking from behind.

Uh, but to destroy a Prophecy capships you can't just attack it from behind. So even if you take out the engines you'll still have to fly through the storm of missiles and energy weapons to get to the bridge.

This is a blatantly obvious design fault in that in WCP you have to destroy a ship's engines to kill it. Therefore it doesn't take a military genius to realize that potential hostiles are going to be attacking from the rear. The way they design their ships with the giant exhaust vent taking up the entire rear section means that turrets on the rest of the ship can't provide coverage. It also forces attackers to attack from the rear because that is the only way to get a clear shot of the engine.

Have you ever tried taking out the Midway's engines? Yes, some turrets will hit you, but if you're prety close to them they'll barely scratch you. Even with a few turrets the engines would be easy to take out.

You have to move fast and your sense of where you are in relation to where the corvette is has to be picture perfect. Getting rid of that turret is reasonably easy if you know what you are doing exactly.
I'm afraid that all my emphasis on the rear turret has been somewhat misleading. I originally advised Saturnye to waste the turrets as a method of making corvette wasting easier for him. As for me I don't usually go out of my way wasting turrets unless I absolutely have to. In the case of the corvette I usually maintain strafing runs & patiently chip through it's defenses.
It's turret accuracy is good.

Well than, that may work for you, but the T-bolt (my fighter of choice in WC3 untill the Excal shows up

) isn't that good at making quick manuvers. I'll just stick to my old method.

 

[Wedge009]

Just to put in my two cents worth, I've never had a problem with parking at the back of a Barracuda, matching speed and blasting away - even in the middle of a heated battle. Hmmm, probably a result of those screwed up mission objectives - ie, [Pilot]: Bonus - get all corvettes!

 

[Penguin]

Earthworm: Here's how I get rid of Barracudas scratch free. Locate a Barracuda that's not attacking you. Fly around to it's flanks/6. As it's not attacking you it probably won't notice you. Let your guns rip. If there are several Barracudas protecting each other you have 2 options: look for a more inviting target or get your wingmen to help.

The bug ships have the same problem as the Hades. If you attack in any direction, with the exception of the rear, only a few of the turrets can reach you. Also in WCP strike packages now include escort and SEAD fighters, not just 2 fighters anymore. Which means more for the turrets to shoot at. Also note that their turrets only mount 1 gun, as opposed to 2 guns on Confed/Kilrathi ships.

RI versus AI - good point. However being outnumbered isn't an indicator of defeat. As for the other fleet in Proxima, I'm certain Confed didn't have it's entire fleet busy with the Kilrah wormhole fleet.

Due to the existence of weapons like the Heavy Plasma and the Fleet Plasma you can't really argue that the bugs' capships are more effective. These extremely powerful weapons completely undermine the "let's outnumber the enemy to win" strategem.

True, killing the engines is a job half done. However killing the engines means that's 1 capship that's not going anywhere. You can always come back later to finish it off.

At least the Midway can attempt to save her engines. Saying don't place turrets there because they probably won't save the engines is not a valid reason for not fitting turrets. If you rely on that argument then why fit turrets at all?

Finally please don't assume that I'm a Wild Weasel pilot. The only time I start wasting turrets as standard procedure is when I'm on a SEAD mission in WCP or I'm fighting that WC3 cruiser without torpedos.
I also fly the Thud as much as possible until the Excal shows up. The Thud's 6 guns up front make my usual strategy of strafing runs seem like absolute brilliance

 

[Earthworm]

Just to put in my two cents worth, I've never had a problem with parking at the back of a Barracuda, matching speed and blasting away - even in the middle of a heated battle

Neither do I, and I suspect everyone else here. But I do have a problems with flying next to them, because their guns can be as damaging as the ones on the cat corvetter as long as you're not behind them.

 

[Earthworm]

Let your guns rip. If there are several Barracudas protecting each other you have 2 options: look for a more inviting target or get your wingmen to help.

I like to use either the DF missiles, or the RP's. And if I'm in the T-shark or the Shrike the CMD's are great. Basicly it always comes down to getting behind them and ripping away though.

The bug ships have the same problem as the Hades.

I dare say as most of the Confed capships.

If you attack in any direction, with the exception of the rear, only a few of the turrets can reach you. Also in WCP strike packages now include escort and SEAD fighters, not just 2 fighters anymore. Which means more for the turrets to shoot at. Also note that their turrets only mount 1 gun, as opposed to 2 guns on Confed/Kilrathi ships.

True, but they have more missile turrets.

RI versus AI - good point. However being outnumbered isn't an indicator of defeat. As for the other fleet in Proxima, I'm certain Confed didn't have it's entire fleet busy with the Kilrah wormhole fleet.

Actually it did... somewhat. With this new threat, the Confed fleet scrambled as quickly as it could to asses this new threat, and allowed the other alien fleet to slip quitely in. We hear in the game of various Confed ships moving to assist the Midway, the Eisen being the first of them.

Due to the existence of weapons like the Heavy Plasma and the Fleet Plasma you can't really argue that the bugs' capships are more effective.

The heavy plasma isn't that strong, while the fleet plasma is a relatively short ranged weapon that takes a long time to recharge, and can't be aimed to quickly since you have to move your whole ship to move it.

True, killing the engines is a job half done. However killing the engines means that's 1 capship that's not going anywhere. You can always come back later to finish it off.

But it's possible to repair the engines, though it would take some time in a normal case, the fact that those ships are organic could also mean that it's easier to repair. And in all those missions in Prophecy and SO, if you leave a ship with destroyed engines and go back to base that ship will be gone.

At least the Midway can attempt to save her engines. Saying don't place turrets there because they probably won't save the engines is not a valid reason for not fitting turrets. If you rely on that argument then why fit turrets at all?

Oh, I'm not saying that it won't save anything, the bug transport proves that turrets can be extremly effective against torps. But the bugs must have some logical reasons not to put turrets on the back, whatever it might be.

The only time I start wasting turrets as standard procedure is when I'm on a SEAD mission in WCP or I'm fighting that WC3 cruiser without torpedos.

One thing that always pissed me off was when in Prophecy you have to take out the turrets even if you're flying a bomber. I mean, your escorts should do it, and why the hell should I take out the turrets if I can kill the capship without worrying about them? Stupid.

I also fly the Thud as much as possible until the Excal shows up. The Thud's 6 guns up front make my usual strategy of strafing runs seem like absolute brilliance

Well, at least I know that you've got a good taste. I always want to laugh when in WC3, after you have access to the Excal and you go to select your fighter the default ship is either an Arrow or a Hellcat.

[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited October 05, 2000).]