What is with the Nephilim?
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KillerWave
Spaceman
Penguin said:
The bug transport does have a hear turret, and it can shoot down torpedoes pretty well, i've seen more than a few times it blows a torpedo my wingman fires at its engines, so you have to take it out...but why the hell its so difficult to take down with your weapons
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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...
[This message has been edited by KillerWave (edited October 06, 2000).]
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Mad Hatter
Spaceman
That`s because you keep hitting the shields. If you attack the turrets from the side, you should be able to take them out with 4-5 shots, depending on the weapon, of course.
I don`t want to ruin a perfectly nice discussion, but has anyone seen Metras lately? I think he`d like to know that his topic is one of longest topics ever to rise on the CIC chatzone.
I don`t want to ruin a perfectly nice discussion, but has anyone seen Metras lately? I think he`d like to know that his topic is one of longest topics ever to rise on the CIC chatzone.
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From a defensive view that rear Trtion turret has to be one of the best placed and most effective. I've seen it take out quite a few torps. If you come at it from an almost perpindicular approach, slightly to the back, I've found that works well.
As for Penguin's comment about the WCP corvette having a rear turret, I never saw one on the back of any Barracuda I went after.
As for Organic ships, this in a way gets back to the original questions in this topic. I've always wondered who else the Nephilim have faced and where they came from. If they've had complete run over their section of space with only limited opposition, they may not have had the same hard nosed fight that toughened up the Confederation. Again it gets back to the numbers, I think the Nephilium's strength is in their numbers.
Look at the recent rioting in Serbia. While this isn't a perfect example because some police and army either switched sides or would not fire on their own, the fact is that armed solidiers and police who had a clear advantage in equipment, were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of people. Even if they had fired on the protestors, (and the protestors were willing to sacarafice themselves for the cause) the numbers of the protestors would have overwhelemed the police & army.
In SO, the Midway was sent to help reinforce the Cerberus, and I was under the impression other ships were moving in to position assist. The Nephilim may have an inate instinct to just swarm in their attacks instead of using better tactics and they haven't faced an opponent as well armed and tactically savvy as Confed. They will need to learn better tactics, or at least get more ships in this part of space
Also if the Midway had been lost, even if Confed had been able to throw the Eisen and some other carriers that way, the fight would have taken longer, then the Proxima threat would have become much more severe.
As for Penguin's comment about the WCP corvette having a rear turret, I never saw one on the back of any Barracuda I went after.
As for Organic ships, this in a way gets back to the original questions in this topic. I've always wondered who else the Nephilim have faced and where they came from. If they've had complete run over their section of space with only limited opposition, they may not have had the same hard nosed fight that toughened up the Confederation. Again it gets back to the numbers, I think the Nephilium's strength is in their numbers.
Look at the recent rioting in Serbia. While this isn't a perfect example because some police and army either switched sides or would not fire on their own, the fact is that armed solidiers and police who had a clear advantage in equipment, were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of people. Even if they had fired on the protestors, (and the protestors were willing to sacarafice themselves for the cause) the numbers of the protestors would have overwhelemed the police & army.
In SO, the Midway was sent to help reinforce the Cerberus, and I was under the impression other ships were moving in to position assist. The Nephilim may have an inate instinct to just swarm in their attacks instead of using better tactics and they haven't faced an opponent as well armed and tactically savvy as Confed. They will need to learn better tactics, or at least get more ships in this part of space
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Mad Hatter
Spaceman
Incidently, has anyone ever tried the 3rd ending of SO? The one where you do destroy the gate? There`s something I don`t really understand: When you destroy the gate, it says "Mission complete", but then they also scream at you, and you end up with a very low score. Yet, in the ending sequence, all is peaceful, and it seems that the bugs have been eliminated. So what`s their problem? Screw Proxima.
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KillerWave
Spaceman
Shane said:
I've been thinking, i recently replay WC3 and remmembered the bugs in one or another mission sayng "where is the planet slayer" (or something like that), just a guess, but could the planet where Blair tested the TBomb was a bug colony of some sort, and its destruction is what brought the bugs to Kilrathi space?
I think thats very unlike, but i think that it would be an interesting idea... it would be for the bugs like confed attacked them, starting the war...again, just a guess
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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...
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Earthworm: I always use my RPs and DF on the Barracuda. With my lousy aim they're the only things I can hit with point and shoot weapons. Though there was that one time I stuffed a DF in a Devil Ray's face. Little buggy never saw it coming
"The bug ships have the same problem as the Hades. I dare say as most of the Confed capships." True but then that's why they have us
Bug ships may have more missile turrets but a) the missile's not all that great and b) they're the first things I kill if I ever attack a capship [insert evil chuckle].
I do disagree about Confed's fleet being tied up with the wormhole fleet. I remember a while back LOAF mentioned a home defence fleet formed shortly after the BoT with the express purpose of defending Earth. That fleet could've dealt with the Proxima bug fleet. And if I'm mistaken about the home fleet Confed almost certainly has enough ships to be able to mount military operations in several sectors. At the very least we still have the Victory parked somwhere in Sol System - that ship will never die.
"The heavy plasma isn't that strong." I beg to disagree. That gun makes torpedoes obsolete. As for the Fleet Plasma, erm watch the WCP cutscenes where they let that baby rip. It has a massive blast radius - entire fleets get dusted by that thing. It is without doubt the best weapon for eliminating the supposed giant fleets the bugs have waiting to get us with. And most capships can turn reasonably quickly - remember the WC4 cutscene where the Vesuvius pulls a U Turn to face the Intrepid?
"But it's possible to repair the engines, though it would take some time in a normal case, the fact that those ships are organic could also mean that it's easier to repair." Are you blind? I don't mean to be insulting but take a look at the ship after you've blown away the engines. The whole sections gone dark. That massive machinery has been trashed. You don't repair it in a matter of hours or even days. You need a dry dock. Believe me, it takes far less time for fighters to return to their base, rearm and return then to repair destroyed engines.
"But the bugs must have some logical reasons not to put turrets on the back." True but I'm sure the logical reason of defending your engines overrides those.
"One thing that always pissed me off was when in Prophecy you have to take out the turrets even if you're flying a bomber. I mean, your escorts should do it, and why the hell should I take out the turrets if I can kill the capship without worrying about them? Stupid." Ditto.
"Well, at least I know that you've got a good taste. I always want to laugh when in WC3, after you have access to the Excal and you go to select your fighter the default ship is either an Arrow or a Hellcat." Thanks. It's not often that I get complimented on my taste. As for the fighter selection I think Eisen said it best - "You think I got elves in the back making these things?!!!"
Knight: It was long because I had the fortune to post at the same time as Earthworm. It probably would've gone longer if I'd known Earthworm was going to stick around.
Earthworm again
: Exactly. Besides I'm trying to see if we can get this one longer then the ones at theforce.net. Geez some of those are REALLY long.
Shane: The Nephilim's strength IS their numbers. It's the only thing they've got that we don't.
Actually if the Midway had been lost the whole WCU would stop and patiently wait for you to replay that mission and win it - keeping enough of the Midway alive in order to continue
Mad Hatter: You never say screw friendly territory. The Confed economy, which incidentally pays for the military, requires friendly territory to stay productive. Hence Confed's near defeat after the BoT.
"The bug ships have the same problem as the Hades. I dare say as most of the Confed capships." True but then that's why they have us
Bug ships may have more missile turrets but a) the missile's not all that great and b) they're the first things I kill if I ever attack a capship [insert evil chuckle].
I do disagree about Confed's fleet being tied up with the wormhole fleet. I remember a while back LOAF mentioned a home defence fleet formed shortly after the BoT with the express purpose of defending Earth. That fleet could've dealt with the Proxima bug fleet. And if I'm mistaken about the home fleet Confed almost certainly has enough ships to be able to mount military operations in several sectors. At the very least we still have the Victory parked somwhere in Sol System - that ship will never die.
"The heavy plasma isn't that strong." I beg to disagree. That gun makes torpedoes obsolete. As for the Fleet Plasma, erm watch the WCP cutscenes where they let that baby rip. It has a massive blast radius - entire fleets get dusted by that thing. It is without doubt the best weapon for eliminating the supposed giant fleets the bugs have waiting to get us with. And most capships can turn reasonably quickly - remember the WC4 cutscene where the Vesuvius pulls a U Turn to face the Intrepid?
"But it's possible to repair the engines, though it would take some time in a normal case, the fact that those ships are organic could also mean that it's easier to repair." Are you blind? I don't mean to be insulting but take a look at the ship after you've blown away the engines. The whole sections gone dark. That massive machinery has been trashed. You don't repair it in a matter of hours or even days. You need a dry dock. Believe me, it takes far less time for fighters to return to their base, rearm and return then to repair destroyed engines.
"But the bugs must have some logical reasons not to put turrets on the back." True but I'm sure the logical reason of defending your engines overrides those.
"One thing that always pissed me off was when in Prophecy you have to take out the turrets even if you're flying a bomber. I mean, your escorts should do it, and why the hell should I take out the turrets if I can kill the capship without worrying about them? Stupid." Ditto.
"Well, at least I know that you've got a good taste. I always want to laugh when in WC3, after you have access to the Excal and you go to select your fighter the default ship is either an Arrow or a Hellcat." Thanks. It's not often that I get complimented on my taste. As for the fighter selection I think Eisen said it best - "You think I got elves in the back making these things?!!!"
Knight: It was long because I had the fortune to post at the same time as Earthworm. It probably would've gone longer if I'd known Earthworm was going to stick around.
Earthworm again
Shane: The Nephilim's strength IS their numbers. It's the only thing they've got that we don't.
Actually if the Midway had been lost the whole WCU would stop and patiently wait for you to replay that mission and win it - keeping enough of the Midway alive in order to continue
Mad Hatter: You never say screw friendly territory. The Confed economy, which incidentally pays for the military, requires friendly territory to stay productive. Hence Confed's near defeat after the BoT.
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Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Earthworm: Remember, we still have no idea what it actually means that their ships are organic. After all, plastic is also organic, and if I wreck my keyboard it sure ain't gonna grow back
.
KillerWave: That would be... strange. Though, of course, there's nothing to disprove that idea, either.
KillerWave: That would be... strange. Though, of course, there's nothing to disprove that idea, either.
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Knight
Spaceman
Penguin said:
I hardly believe the damage that gets shown is what was ment to be. Talk about a lack of game engine/animation.
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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
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What I meant actually is that with an active wormhole the bugs could really get some fleets into Proxima, than to Sol. The Earth defense fleet might be huge, but it'll be hard to stop continuing waves of bug ships that could gather in Proxima.Penguin said:
Hey, the Victory's being held back in case we have to nuke the bug homeworld.
Not the Bug heavy Plasma, which is about only 1/3 of the Confeds heavy Plasma. Anyhow, it'll be a long time before torps are made obsolete. You'll have to fire the Confed heavy Plasma about 4 times to inflict as much damage as the enhanced heavy torps.
They sure do, but first you have to get in range and let that baby rip. In one of the Prophecy missions were we go after the shipkiller, it's fighters that engage it, while the Midway holds back. Now if the Midway had a battle group around it like it's supposed to during war time it could dispatch few of those two, to come from different directions. The range of the weapon is only about 10,000 klicks, and even than the wave from the blast can reach the ship that fired, so if it's even closer it might find that it's getting damaged from it's own weapons. A Skipper missile is much more usefull, especially if it was fired at close range. And just look at the effectivness of the bug capship missiles in SO. If you're not carefull and go after fighters those missiles will rip the station you're protecting to shreads.
IIRC, the Vesuvius class was supposed to be more manuverable than most capships. Anyhow, that cutscene is a little exagerated me thinks. And what about the manuvers the Ves pulled of during the mission. It was more manuverable than my Dragon.
But for some reason or another if we fail to destroy a capship it'll get away. If the bug ships are living, maybe they'll grow back.
Well, I'm pretty sure Eisen would be happier with a trashed Excal as well as some capship kills on my part and no damage to the Vic.
[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited October 07, 2000).]
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KillerWave: There's nothing to prove/disprove your theory. However the presence of the Kilrathi military indicates that the planet is within the Kilrathi sphere of influence.
Quarto: A closer analogy is if you cut off someone's limb or even a tiny part of it it won't grow back, despite them being a living, breathing organism.
Knight: This is WCP. The game itself states that in order to destroy a capship you have to waste the bridge AND the engines. Killing just the engines isn't enough as the game engine so disappointingly shows. And there were no constraints that could've prevented the programmers from designing the game, where the capship blows when you dust the engines.
Earthworm: Why does everyone assume Confed's defence sucks? If Proxima really is that close to Sol then you're talking about invading what is probably the most heavily defended part of Confed space. In a situation like this always note the ending to the WCM. That puts a real dampener on surprise attacks.
As for the Victory that's the most righteous thing you've said
The Bug Heavy Plasma has a refire rate that makes up for any lack of damage comparability with it's Confed equivalent. The Heavy Plasma can inflict the same amount of damage to a capship as a torp in the time it takes to lock on a torp. Since Confed apparently likes to cut corners on expenses the torps are likely to go. Remember Confed's political leaders don't have any problems slashing expenditure where possible.
As for the Fleet Plasma - it's blast radius ensures that capships can't stick close for defence. That means they have to scatter about becoming vulnerable to attacking swarms of fighters. It also causes defending fighters to become thinly spaced. Therefore creating a major advantage for you. The Fleet Plasma can also be used to destroy incoming salvos of capship missiles and the Skipper's cloaking device would be ineffectual in WCP's environment.
The cutscene may have been exaggerated but it's still canon.
The capships get away as a plot device. Besides if they do run away they'll be easy to track down. They're big, don't move to fast and fighters can jump just like them.
"Well, I'm pretty sure Eisen would be happier with a trashed Excal as well as some capship kills on my part and no damage to the Vic." True but you could probably achieve those same kills with the Hellcat or Arrow, all without endangering the precious Excals.
Quarto: A closer analogy is if you cut off someone's limb or even a tiny part of it it won't grow back, despite them being a living, breathing organism.
Knight: This is WCP. The game itself states that in order to destroy a capship you have to waste the bridge AND the engines. Killing just the engines isn't enough as the game engine so disappointingly shows. And there were no constraints that could've prevented the programmers from designing the game, where the capship blows when you dust the engines.
Earthworm: Why does everyone assume Confed's defence sucks? If Proxima really is that close to Sol then you're talking about invading what is probably the most heavily defended part of Confed space. In a situation like this always note the ending to the WCM. That puts a real dampener on surprise attacks.
As for the Victory that's the most righteous thing you've said
The Bug Heavy Plasma has a refire rate that makes up for any lack of damage comparability with it's Confed equivalent. The Heavy Plasma can inflict the same amount of damage to a capship as a torp in the time it takes to lock on a torp. Since Confed apparently likes to cut corners on expenses the torps are likely to go. Remember Confed's political leaders don't have any problems slashing expenditure where possible.
As for the Fleet Plasma - it's blast radius ensures that capships can't stick close for defence. That means they have to scatter about becoming vulnerable to attacking swarms of fighters. It also causes defending fighters to become thinly spaced. Therefore creating a major advantage for you. The Fleet Plasma can also be used to destroy incoming salvos of capship missiles and the Skipper's cloaking device would be ineffectual in WCP's environment.
The cutscene may have been exaggerated but it's still canon.
The capships get away as a plot device. Besides if they do run away they'll be easy to track down. They're big, don't move to fast and fighters can jump just like them.
"Well, I'm pretty sure Eisen would be happier with a trashed Excal as well as some capship kills on my part and no damage to the Vic." True but you could probably achieve those same kills with the Hellcat or Arrow, all without endangering the precious Excals.
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The fact that the aliens are in Proxima proves that Confeds defenses are weak. Weather it's because someone upstairs doesn't know what he's doing, or because the whole Confederation is shaken by the appearence of the bugs doesn't matter. The point is that the bugs wouldn't be able to get so close to Sol if someone hadn't screwed up the job.Penguin said:
What happened in the movie can't exactly be used for this situation. The bugs were in Proxima, and the wormhole lookd practicly done. They could have started moving capships through it at any time without Confed even knowing about it.
True, but you also need to have three Stingrays clustered to use it, and it's very easy to break up such a cluster.
Sometimes, but not all the time. The Plasma is more effective against transports and other weaker ships, but if you're going against the dreadnough or similar ships, your torp will lock before the Plasma would destroy it. And if Prophecy had the option of locking more than one torp at the same time, the Plasma would be the one that's obsolete, at least against heavy ships.
I doubt that, first you'd have to turn your ship in the direction the missiles are coming from on then fire the weapon in the exactly right place. The capship missiles move very fast, and waves of them wouldn't exactly be that close to each other. Each wave could even come from a different direction. As for the cloak, we don't know how effective, or ineffective a cloack would be by the Prophecy time. And the cloaking technology could improve as well as the detection techniques had improved.
I don't see how a transport that gets away would serve the plot.
Alcohol is bad for you, you know.
[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited October 07, 2000).]
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KillerWave
Spaceman
Penguin said:
So? If the bugs are the Star Gods, they could had been there much time before the kilrathi, and since there was just a small kilrathi militar base there, im assuming that the kilrathi might hadnt searched the place very througly...after all they were at war...
Of course i might be wrong, but its just a "strange idea" i had, like Quarto said.
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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...
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But we don't know if the bugs are the star gods, and I think that he planet would be searched well enough to find any other species. Now, personally I never heard them refer to Blair as "the planet slayer", but if it did happen after Blair was kidnaped by them, than it would be because they found out that Blair destroyed Kilrah.
KillerWave
Spaceman
Earthworm, notice that i said IF the bugs are the star gods
Maybe they wasnt there, but could have been some hidden structure or something like that...
About the bugs sayng about the "planet slayer" (Blair), i cant remmember if it was before or after Blair was abducted...
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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...
Maybe they wasnt there, but could have been some hidden structure or something like that...
About the bugs sayng about the "planet slayer" (Blair), i cant remmember if it was before or after Blair was abducted...
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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...
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Earthworm: But if Proxima's so close to Sol then surely Confed would have good surveillance in the area. Good enough so that you couldn't build something like a wormhole without somebody noticing.
Clusters may be easy to break up but then can be tricky if there are escorting fighters mixing it up with you.
The Heavy Plasma certainly wouldn't be obsolete. That much firepower makes the Devastator the Devastator
OK I'll concede the point about using the Fleet Plasma to take out incoming anti-capship munitions.
If the transport gets away it warns the other bugs. That's why you have to kill it the first time. I can only assume that the reason you don't get a second chance is because by then the transport has warned the bugs and destroying it at that point would serve no purpose, particularly with bug reinforcements coming after you.
"Alcohol is bad for you, you know." Unlike some people here I don't drink on the job
"Seriously, you can take out entire fleets in the Excal, but I would never dare to do the same things in the Arrow or the 'cat. Especially the 'cat." Earthworm, I'm disappointed. Where's your sense of adventure?
I've never heard this reference to the planet slayer. If they're talking about a single person, then it's probably Blair. Or the guy who pulled the trigger on the Behemoth
As for when, it depends on when and where they got their information from.
Clusters may be easy to break up but then can be tricky if there are escorting fighters mixing it up with you.
The Heavy Plasma certainly wouldn't be obsolete. That much firepower makes the Devastator the Devastator
OK I'll concede the point about using the Fleet Plasma to take out incoming anti-capship munitions.
If the transport gets away it warns the other bugs. That's why you have to kill it the first time. I can only assume that the reason you don't get a second chance is because by then the transport has warned the bugs and destroying it at that point would serve no purpose, particularly with bug reinforcements coming after you.
"Alcohol is bad for you, you know." Unlike some people here I don't drink on the job
"Seriously, you can take out entire fleets in the Excal, but I would never dare to do the same things in the Arrow or the 'cat. Especially the 'cat." Earthworm, I'm disappointed. Where's your sense of adventure?
I've never heard this reference to the planet slayer. If they're talking about a single person, then it's probably Blair. Or the guy who pulled the trigger on the Behemoth
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Well, according the SO they didn't.Penguin said:
I'd take a Shrike over the Dev any day.The Heavy Plasma certainly wouldn't be obsolete. That much firepower makes the Devastator the Devastator
Oh, it's right here. It's just my kamikaze sense that's burried a little deaper."Alcohol is bad for you, you know." Unlike some people here I don't drink on the job
"Seriously, you can take out entire fleets in the Excal, but I would never dare to do the same things in the Arrow or the 'cat. Especially the 'cat." Earthworm, I'm disappointed. Where's your sense of adventure?
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