What is with the Nephilim?

[Earthworm]

Well, personally I always found the idea of a stealth dreadnought to be laughable (if it was feasible, the Kilrathi would have had it first, since the Strakha were Thrakhath's favourite toy),

Just because the cats came with stealth tech first doesn't mean Confed can't have an ace up it's sleve.

and the Omega was rumoured to have a super-weapon onboard. So, I like to think that the Behemoth is a cheapened-down version of the Omega. But I guess that's probably not true, since Tolwyn says he supervised the Behemoth for ten years, whereas he wasn't even supposed to know about the Omega (though in a way, one comment doesn't contradict the other).

IMO, the Omege is a different ship, though I have thought about it being somewhat as an offshot project form the Behemoth. A lighter version of the Behemoth, with some fighters, and obviously faster and more manuverable. Still, it's just a guess.

 

[Penguin]

Quarto: What's this? "I like to think that the Behemoth is a cheapened-down version of the Omega."
There's an even bigger ship out there?!!!

Please explain, nothing could possibly be bigger than a planet killer

 

[Quarto]

Earthworm: Of course Confed could have had an ace up their sleeve... but stealth dreadnought? Sure, if they threw enough credits at the project, it might be possible, but it just seems crazy.

IMO, the Omege is a different ship, though I have thought about it being somewhat as an offshot project form the Behemoth. A lighter version of the Behemoth, with some fighters, and obviously faster and more manuverable. Still, it's just a guess.

Hmm... so basically, you're suggesting the same thing that I am, but in reverse

. Yeah, it's definitely a possibility. Either way, I'm inclined to believe that somehow the two ships must be related.

Penguin: Well, there's little to explain since it's just a guess based on pretty much no facts. But basically, the Omega (briefly mentioned in Fleet Action, and then never heard of again) was supposed to be a heavy battleship with stealth capabilities, and rumoured to have a secret weapon onboard. So basically, I'm grasping at straws here - jumping to a conclusion that the Omega's secret weapon was the same as the Behemoth's... er, gun. This would then mean that the Behemoth was just an Omega without the torp-proof shielding and cloaking device. But of course, no proof either way.

 

[Earthworm]

Earthworm: Of course Confed could have had an ace up their sleeve... but stealth dreadnought?

Why not?

Thro in some material that distrupts radars into armor, give it a stealthy shape and all that other crap. Of course it'd cost a hell of a lot, but to have a large capship that would be imposible to detect at longer ranges would be a great advantage.

Hmm... so basically, you're suggesting the same thing that I am, but in reverse

. Yeah, it's definitely a possibility. Either way, I'm inclined to believe that somehow the two ships must be related.

Yeah, that's basicly it. Though the Behemoth doesn't look as an offshot of anything to me. IMO, the Omega ships were being produced because they were smaller, cheaper, anf faster to build, and since the Behemoth project was taking so long to complete, the navy just didn't want to wait.

 

[Shane]

I'm trying to remember the context of Omega, it came up it Fleet Action, correct? Instead of capships, could Omega have been in reference to some of the GE and BL projects? The end of the the war with the Cats would come at the hands of a race of superhumans?

As for the comment Tolwyn made about supervising the behemoth for 10 years. It seems to me that would be a very intesive and time consuming process, not to mention classified. How was it then at the same time he was out flying his flag on the Concordia, kicking ass and taking names? I would think the direcotr of that would want/need to be on hand, plus the fact that it was done in secret would mean Tolwyn would be comprimising security by being at the front, if he or his files were to be captured by the Cats.

 

[Wolf Dog]

Why not?

Thro in some material that distrupts radars into armor, give it a stealthy shape and all that other crap. Of course it'd cost a hell of a lot, but to have a large capship that would be imposible to detect at longer ranges would be a great advantage.

A little bit of RAM (radar absorbant material) and a hopeless diamond might be the perfect solution to eliminating detection now, but in the 27th century I'm sure there will be more to stealth than RCS (radar cross section).

Avoiding active sensors might be achievable, but the RAM would have to be absorbant for an extremely broadband of frequencies. Add to that the durability factor. The first singe of laser fire and you have a stealth ship that isn't stealth anymore. After every fire fight the ship took damage in, you'd have to recoat with RAM. Also, it adds an extra challenge to turrets. Their design would have to change, possibly so they fold into the hull of the ship. The scoops will also be a significant challenge, as the air intakes are on the F-117. And, since you are talking about a dreadnough, you have to find solutions that work on a very large scale. That is a big challenge.

Passive sensors are an even bigger problem IMHO. With extremly precise measurements, you could probably detect ships by variances in gravitational forces. You also have the issue of the matter stream accelerating your ship. The most you can do is focus it soo that its not detectable over a large area, unless your stealth ship doesn't plan on accelerating. Even then the electromagnetic radiation will basically be a beacon if the thrusters are line of sight to any enemy detection systems. The scoops on the front probably are a give-a-way too. Of course, since I know nothing about tractor beam technology, I really can't comment, but you are probably talking about some kind of wide spanning EM field that doesn't help the situation in the best case scenerio, and in the worst case tells everyone that might be looking exactly where you are. Then you still have to worry about the visible light from your ship, and the massive field of stars your dreadnought blocks out.

Bottom line is, if a ship is really big, you can disquise it, but you can't make it disappear. If the stealth tech is available and you have the resources to build a low RCS dreadnought, build a dreadnought and a small stealth destroyer with just enough capship missiles to do some serious damage instead. That way, you still have a proven dreadnought and a potential war clinching stealth weapon.

 

[Earthworm]

A little bit of RAM (radar absorbant material) and a hopeless diamond might be the perfect solution to eliminating detection now, but in the 27th century I'm sure there will be more to stealth than RCS (radar cross section).

The Strakhas use RAM, and their shape to be stealthy when not cloacked. And some fighters like the Arrow, are somewhat stealthy because of their shape.

Bottom line is, if a ship is really big, you can disquise it, but you can't make it disappear.

I'm pretty sure no one thinks that the Omega ships would be completly invisible. Even a cloacking device wouldn't make them completly invisible.

 

[Penguin]

RAM (radar absorbent materials) aren't the only way to achieve stealthiness. The other method is RAS (radar absorbent structure), in which an air/spacecraft's entire structural design is meant to facilitate stealthiness. Hence the F 117 and the B 2.
Making a stealthy dreadnought would be difficult but certainly not impossible. Turrets/shield emitters/sensor arrays/whatnot would probably be internally fitted, extending only when necessary. Note that todays warships have internally mounted vertical launch missile systems. Some forms of RAM can be painted on, which should help in the case of battle damage. As for passive sensors, these can only pick up what you put out. If there is an enemy nearby you wouldn't use the scoop tech to accelerate since that's broadcasting your location. You'd stay slow, cut comms & IFF & put all active sensors into standby mode. With your RAS/RAM reducing the effectiveness of hostile active sensors to acceptable levels you'd achieve a level of stealthiness that would give you the "first look, first shot, first kill" capability.

 

[Nemesis]

I'm not familiar with a statement by Tolwyn that he supervised the Behemoth for ten years. In Heart of the Tiger, Tolwyn states (p.274): "I first got involved with the early planning of Project Behemoth nearly ten years ago. I got pulled from my job as head of Terran Defense to bring it on-line. . . ." In this regard, earlier in the novel (p.187), his nephew relates that Tolwyn "got pulled from Concordia just before it went down". In False Colors, Tolwyn gives the same basic account to Bondarevsky (p.194).

The foregoing supports that Tolwyn had some degree of authority over Behemoth beginning in late 2659 or 2660, but that that authority terminated at some point (with his taking command of Concordia in 2661?) until he was assigned to oversee the weapon's completion in 2669.

 

[Penguin]

From WC3 the game I got the impression that Tolwyn was the person that got the project going. He arranged funding and supply (admin stuff) but otherwise focused on his regular activities. Most command staff will support this or that project or initiative but not to the extent that they have to focus all their energies on it.

 

[Wolf Dog]

I just don't buy the concept of a stealth dreadnought. You have to take baby steps. Maybe Confed could start on a frigate or destroyer first. Wasting time trying to tackle a dreadnought first would keep a perfectly good dreadnought out of the war as R&D tried to perfect its stealth capabilities.

No matter how well designed or how absorbent the materials, detection technologies will always be right there to keep up. Most importantly, the most you can do is limit your RCS. Even if you can reduce it by 99%, with the shear size of a dreadnought you are still going to have a very detectable RCS.

You might limit the range of detection, but enemy patrols will catch up with you sooner or later, and dispatching fighters won't help the RCS situation, and will just give passive sensors more to detect.

I really can't imagine the Omega being a stealth vessel in the sense of making surprise attacks. Maybe a vessel with stealth capabilities that limit its RCS to that of a frigate, but its still going to be detectable. This could be helpful, but I still think the way to go with a stealth ship is small. Chances are, you will be able to reduce the RCS by a given factor. If you do so on a small ship you could have a viable surprise delivery system for cap missiles at strategic targets behind enemy lines. In my mind, that is the best use of stealth technology.

 

[Earthworm]

I just don't buy the concept of a stealth dreadnought. You have to take baby steps. Maybe Confed could start on a frigate or destroyer first. Wasting time trying to tackle a dreadnought first would keep a perfectly good dreadnought out of the war as R&D tried to perfect its stealth capabilities.

And who says they didn't? There are plenty of black ops projects we never hear about. Confed had a cloacking transport in WCIV, they didn't come up with that in a few days either.

You might limit the range of detection, but enemy patrols will catch up with you sooner or later, and dispatching fighters won't help the RCS situation, and will just give passive sensors more to detect.

It wouldn't matter if some fighter patrols found you, since by that time you'd be close enough to strike at an unprepered foe.

I really can't imagine the Omega being a stealth vessel in the sense of making surprise attacks.

Don't forget that it wouldn't have to go in undetected untill it's right next to its target. As long as it remains undetected till is, about 300,000 klicks away, it can close on the target before they can mount a sufficient defense.

 

[Death]

I just don't buy the concept of a stealth dreadnought. You have to take baby steps. Maybe Confed could start on a frigate or destroyer first. Wasting time trying to tackle a dreadnought first would keep a perfectly good dreadnought out of the war as R&D tried to perfect its stealth capabilities.

How many destroyers or frigates do you know that can take down multiple major capital warships on their own? (the more ships, the greater a chance of detection)

No matter how well designed or how absorbent the materials, detection technologies will always be right there to keep up.

So? Using that logic, there was no reason for ANY weapon development, because there'd always be something made to stop it or otherwise counter it.

Most importantly, the most you can do is limit your RCS. Even if you can reduce it by 99%, with the shear size of a dreadnought you are still going to have a very detectable RCS.

Every minute undetected is another minute to get within firing range. If you can get a lock on someone with a CSM at 300K km, but he can only get a sufficient signal to get a lock at 200K, guess who's going to be more likely to get away? (Assuming, for the sake of argument, no CAP of any kind.)

You might limit the range of detection, but enemy patrols will catch up with you sooner or later, and dispatching fighters won't help the RCS situation, and will just give passive sensors more to detect.

The same goes for the destroyer and frigate you mentioned above. Between a dreadnaught, a destroyer, and a frigate, which do you think has a better chance of surviving?

I really can't imagine the Omega being a stealth vessel in the sense of making surprise attacks. Maybe a vessel with stealth capabilities that limit its RCS to that of a frigate, but its still going to be detectable. This could be helpful, but I still think the way to go with a stealth ship is small. Chances are, you will be able to reduce the RCS by a given factor. If you do so on a small ship you could have a viable surprise delivery system for cap missiles at strategic targets behind enemy lines. In my mind, that is the best use of stealth technology.

It's easy to rationalize a decision when not on the losing end of a 30-odd year war, or when focusing solely on 20th century technology.

------------------
SubCrid Death
Official Net.Nazi, LOAF's Merry Guild

 

[Wolf Dog]

I'm sorry, I still think baby steps is the way to go. A stealth dreadnought would be very nice, but you can't jump right to that step. You have to test and evaluate the technology on a small scale, and for that purpose a frigate would be ideal. When on the losing side of a war, it really isn't practical to have a finished dreadnought not in the fight because it is the testbed for R&D research.

Granted, a stealth dreadnought would be a much more useful commodity, but its not the kind of gamble I'd want to take until the technology was proven. Not knowing the circumstances of the Omega development, maybe the technology was all in place and the implementation had already been tested on a smaller scale. But, from my WC experience, I just don't see that. If the technology was there, I think we would have already seen it, to an extent, on the existing cap ships.

As for the cloaking transport in WCIV, that is the next logical step from cloaking fighters. However, had the Vesuvious cloaked I would have seriously wondered why Confed didn't have frigates, destroyers, and cruisers that could cloak first.

As for your comment about weapons development Death, I think you are wrong. The entire reason for weapons research is the development of technologies to counter. If defensive technologies never advanced, we could just as well still be using sticks and stones. This is one of the few cases where circular reasoning works: you have to develop weapons to counter defenses and defenses to counter weapons.

 

[Penguin]

Wolf Dog: I think there's evidence to suggest that Confed has already taken those baby steps. 2654 - The Tiger Claw utilizes stealth mode to stay hidden from the Kilrathi fleet and they didn't sound particularly surprised when the Kilrathi fired a Skipper at them. That means that Confed's known about working stealth technology since at least 2654.
The Behemoth was apparently designed & built in 10yrs. If Confed R&D could've built a weapon system capable of destroying a planet, where nothing of the sort existed before, then creating a stealth dreadnought should take a similar amount of time. Keep in mind that technologically induced stealthiness has been around for 700yrs since the first F 117 flew.
Thanks to WC4 we know that cloaking devices can be retrofitted to capships. However the reasons they might fit such a device to a ship like the Vesuvius and not to smaller ships is: the Vesuvius had just been built and was in a better position to accept the new tech. It might be too expensive to fit the cloaking device to all cap ships - the Dragon wasn't mass produced because of the expense of the MAM powerplant.
The reason we build new weapons is to gain an advantage over the enemy. Why do you think the Morningstar had the Mace? Or the Excalibur had auto-tracking? Or phase shields being fitted to capships?
As for the dreadnought being used for surprise attacks. Dreadnoughts aren't used for surprise attacks. The dictionary tells us that a dreadnought is the largest class of warship supporting the most powerful armaments. It's mission profile is to wade in & use sheer firepower to overwhelm it's enemies. Hence the term DREADnought. Stealthiness would make the dreadnought harder to engage, capship missiles & torpedoes would take longer to lock on. The dreadnought would be able to get closer without being detected giving the enemy less time for counter attack. Keep in mind that modern warships have incorporated stealth techniques with the intention of degrading the enemies' ability to attack from afar with anti-shipping missiles. Not to make those ships invisible to radar to the degree that they simply can't be detected.

[This message has been edited by Penguin (edited September 23, 2000).]

 

[Earthworm]

The Tiger Claw utilizes stealth mode to stay hidden from the Kilrathi fleet

What the Claw did was something that every ship could do. They simply limited their electronic emissions, and comunications, but like I said, everyone can do that.

Or phase shields being fitted to capships?

Actually, all shields are phase shields. It's just that weapons tech keeps improving, so sometimes you can get through those shields with all weapons and sometimes you can't.

 

[Wolf Dog]

Penguin, I agree completly. Ships always try to use stealth to evade enemies, and there are many ways to go about that like limmitting communications as Earthworm pointed out.

However, in the phrasing "stealth dreadnought," you are implying stealth capabilities far exceeding the norm. Afterall, the RCS for a B-1 is pretty small for its size, and by flying low it can be stealthy, but you wouldn't call it a stealth bomber in the sense of the B-2. The same applies to naval vessels. I belief Arliegh Burkes have some RAM coating, but you don't refer to them as stealth destroyers in the sense of F-117s or B-2 either.

What I am getting is that I am sure any and all dreadnoughts are built to make use of stealth abilities, as are all capital ships and fighters. So if by stealth you are simply referring to a ship that you pick up on radar but have a helluva time locking on to, I don't doubt that at all. That's just not what I envision when I hear "stealth dreadnougt."

I must disagree on a few points as well. Dreadnoughts do make surprise attacks. In fact, you build every weapon you have to make surprise attacks. That is the holy grail of warfare. You want to be able to bypass your enemies defenses and strike right at their infastructure. That is where the tactics come in. Stealth technology just makes success a lot easier, but you can still make surprise attacks with dreadnoughts, and their firepower makes them very effective at doing heavy damage very quickly. The Yamato, a member of the Japanese Central force at the Battle of Leyte Gulf, nearly achieved a successful surprise attack on the newly established beachhead. The only reason it didn't succeed was because of the "gallantry, guts, and gumption" of a small force of escort carriers, destroyers, and destroyer escorts and a massive military blunder by Japanese Vice Admiral Takeo Kurita.

Well, this really is a pretty useless discussion since we probably won't be seeing an Omega anytime soon, but it's been fun.

 

[Penguin]

I hardly consider this discussion useless. It served as a fun distraction from the monotony of life.
However we don't make our weapons for surprise attacks. We make our weapons to counter and destroy our enemies war making resources. Sure stealth is important but there is no point in sneaking up to an enemy shipyard, decloaking and then finding you've got nothing that will penetrate the shields.
Lord knows I'm no WWII buff but from what I know in the Battle of Leyte Gulf the American fleet was led away by a decoy Japanese force. This force was annihilated but incidentally included a carrier which was inoperable due to a shortage of carrier pilots.
The Yamato & some escorts fought its way through some aerial raids then reached the Gulf where the American escort carriers were meant to be. But the Japanese lookouts couldn't find them & the commanders assumed their intelligence was off and decided to turn back. If they had proceeded they'd have found the CVEs. Lacking torpedo bombers or heavy ship artillery the US fleet would have have suffered heavy loss in the face of the Yamato's 18.1 inch guns. If there are any inaccuracies please correct.

 

[Wolf Dog]

Yeah, I just LOVE to oversimplify things. Of course we don't make our stuff just for surprise attacks, but sneaking in and doing damage is the stuff of legend that shows up in movies. You also have to worry about defense, and realize that you won't be able to outwit your opponent at every turn, so you'll have to be able to fight your way through them when needs be.

As for your info on Leyte Gulf, it is quite impressive for someone who is not a WWII buff.

Just a little added info, cuz I did a term paper and I think its cool:

There were three Japanese fleets, two in the attack and a decoy fleet. The main attack force (central force) was composed of five battleships (Yamato included) and twelve cruisers, and smaller ships as well.

The other attacking Japanese fleet, the southern fleet, was decimated in one of the most decisive battles in naval history when they steamed right into an American battle line. With inferior fire control radar, the Japanese were defensless, and only three ships even made it within range of the battle line.

While Halsey headed north seeking dreams of bearing his big guns on what he thought was the main Japanese fleet, the central force hit the escort carrier group. Halsey then turned around, and ended up not being able to use his guns on anyone.

Interestingly enough, the central force (which had indeed taken a beating from the air) turned around, fearing more US forces, just short of coming into weapons range of the escort carriers, the only thing standing between them and the beachhead. You would think the bold action of the destroyers and destroyer escorts, which really had no business going head to head with the much heavy Japanese ships, and the fighters attacking without ordinance or with ground support weapons would have screamed to the Japanese that the desperation of the attack meant it was the last line of defense, but they pulled back anyway.

For some reason, that engagement of the battle reminds me so much of WC3 and the good old Victory.

 

[Penguin]

I think what you're missing is that the Japanese, at that point, were so disheartened by the way the war had turned out and the beating they had sustained thus far, that they no longer possessed the will to continue. Hence the importance of psychological warfare.
Anyways my little snippet comes from a passage in a book I was reading during English class when things were slow.