What is with the Nephilim?

[Penguin]

The Heavy Plasma is the extreme version of the Thud's plasmas. It does in 1 shot what the Thud does with several. As an added bonus my gunnery accuracy always improved whenever I flew the Dev

Anyways the Heavy Plasma would most certainly make the torp obsolete. It does more damage, it never runs out, it's cheaper, it can engage more targets and it makes Devil Rays run away

Who said anything about kamikaze? There's nothing more exciting than taking on a big ship in a small ship with no punch. I mean the cats would be committing zukara from the humiliation of being taken out by a puny little Arrow - or Sivar forbid a Hellcat

But then since it's the Heart of the Tiger maybe it's OK.
And kamikazi dives are cool. Imagine this - you're out there, bugs everywhere, wingmen ejected, your ship shot to hell. What do you do. Eject? And waste a perfectly good ad hoc torpedo? No sir. You spin around, kick in the AB and dive into the enemy mothership, ejecting at the last minute and causing the greatest set of fireworks since Kilrah went POP! It'd be great, the enemy would be beaten, the women would swoon, the brass would promote you, the chief tech couldn't yell at you - OK maybe I do drink a bit while on the job

Anyways the last time I actually did that was on that mission where Blair actually does get sodden. Geez I thought drink slowed your reactions and dulled you wit - not make you crazy. I couldn't fly in a straight line, even when I took my hands off the stick. Thank god for the autopilot, it was the only way I made it back to the Victory. Then when Captain Eisen finally has a good reason to yell at me, it's Flint. Dressed down by a liuetenant. What a career low.
BTW how was your day?

[This message has been edited by Penguin (edited October 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Penguin (edited October 08, 2000).]

 

[Earthworm]

The Heavy Plasma is the extreme version of the Thud's plasmas. It does in 1 shot what the Thud does with several.

But you are able to fire the Thud's Plasma several times before the heavy Plasma recharges. Which makes it much more usefull against fighters, while Dev's Plasma is useles against fast ships that aren't charging you head on.

As an added bonus my gunnery accuracy always improved whenever I flew the Dev

Mine is always about 20% when flying the Dev or the Shrike.

Because those damn turrets can never hit anything and it all reflects on my acuracy. Stupid.

Anyways the Heavy Plasma would most certainly make the torp obsolete.

BS

It'll never replace torps, especially when you'll again be able to get through shields with all weapons, not only Plasma or torps.

It does more damage, it never runs out,

It does about the same amount of damage, and it's energy can run out at the worst possible moment.

it's cheaper,

Says who? Yes, torps are one time use only, but a gun of the heavy Plasma caliber has to be more expensive than the guns we've seen before. That thing is huge. And the more you use it, the faster it'll have to be replaced.

it can engage more targets and it makes Devil Rays run away

It can make Morays and Mantas run away, not a Devil Ray.

There's nothing more exciting than taking on a big ship in a small ship with no punch.

Ther is if you get killed everytime you attempt to do it. Have you ever flown a mission with a carrier, cruiser, and a destroyer, along with several fighters, and no wingman since you'll have to send him back to base, otherwise he'll get killed even if there's nothing shooting at him.

And kamikazi dives are cool. Imagine this - you're out there, bugs everywhere, wingmen ejected, your ship shot to hell. What do you do. Eject? And waste a perfectly good ad hoc torpedo? No sir. You spin around, kick in the AB and dive into the enemy mothership, ejecting at the last minute and causing the greatest set of fireworks since Kilrah went POP!

If you'd eject at the last possible moment the blast wave would get you.

What's all the glory for if you're dead and can't get laid by some hot gunnery officers?

 

[Wedge009]

Ditto what Earthworm said about 'kamikaze' ejections. Just wanted to say I make good use of both torps and the plasma gun. I think the bugs' plasma weapon is better. It does less damage, but refires quite fast, and is murder on capship components.

 

[Mad Hatter]

I`ve become quite a marksman with the Dev`s Plasma gun, I usually have a much better kill rate with it than with any other gun of fighter. Not to mention accuracy rate, where the only thing that brings it down is the automatic laser guns.

 

[Penguin]

Earthworm: The Heavy Plasma is much better than the Thud's plasmas. Why? Because of the sheer damage potential. Even if the Heavy Plasma had the refire rate of the Thud's plasmas it'd still be useless against fighters because of the Dev's lack of speed and agility. It's meant for use against heavy slow stuff - a role for which it excels.
As for gunnery accuracy, while in the Dev I always ignore the final score I'm given. I simply keep track of how many times I fire and how many times I hit. The percentage always goes up compared to my performance in other fighters, particularly since there are always bug capships handy

If WC were for real the Heavy Plasma would replace the torp. Because when you make your run you don't have to worry about flying in a straight line to maintain the lock. You could dodge as much as necessary. The damage is potentially more than the torps because it doesn't run out. What if all your torps miss or get shot down? Do you really want that last pesky Triton to get away because you're out of torps? Also the power doesn't run out at inconvenient times if your aims good and use of the Heavy Plasma encourages good aiming. You also can't gamble on the possibility that sometime in the future all weapons will be able to penetrate shields. We have to plan for the here and now, not on possibilities. And right now those torps are taking up space better reserved for fuel, decoys and regular missiles.
I think torps are more expensive then the Heavy Plasma because you have to pay a certain amount for each one. Then you have to chuck in maintenance and so on. By contrast the Dev mounts the Heavy Plasma regardless of whether you use the torps or not. Therefore any expenditure on the torp is extra to what you're already spending. Also maintenance on the Heavy Plasma must at least be comparable to the torp. Remember that the torps makes use of sophisticated tech to penetrate shields - therefore you can't credibly argue that the Heavy Plasma is so much more expensive then the torp that it justifies expenditure on the torp.
Have you seen how much damage a Heavy Plasma does? Even the most rabid Devil Ray ace would run away. Believe me I've seen it. This Devil Ray was giving me grief so I stuffed a round in his face and he quickly went away to pester my wingmen

You've got to admit that taking out a capship with something small is always a rush. All you need is enough patience and perserverance.
If Maniac can eject close to Kilrah's orbit and survive I think you can survive being near an exploding capship. I've seen MIPs survive being attached to an exploding ship. I've survived being parked in the hangar of an exploding carrier. Trust me on this Earthworm

Wedge009: The stingray is murder on my wingmen. It's the primary cause of their deaths. For some reason they never seem to be able to dodge

Mad Hatter: Just count the number of times you pull the trigger. If your aim's as good as you're saying you won't have any trouble remembering, since there'll be a bug death cry to go with each one

 

[Wedge009]

I still insist that the plasma would not necessarily make the torp obsolete, they both have their uses. True, you don't need to maintain a lock with the plasma, but the torp targetting system in Prophecy is much better than those of its predecessors, ie you have quite a lot of leeway in direction when the torp is locking.

Also, as was mentioned earlier, the advanced torps are good for locking at long distance. I tend to lock with a heavy torp at range while afterburning into position, launch, and then follow up with the plasma if the torp wasn't enough. If I'm already at close range, I load up the light torp - just in case - and let rip with the plasma. Aside from the Triton, capship turrets don't seem to be very good at killing incoming torps (ditto for the Midway, grrr) and a well placed torp can save you much time waiting for the plasma to recharge.

 

[Earthworm]

Earthworm: The Heavy Plasma is much better than the Thud's plasmas. Why? Because of the sheer damage potential.

And I say that Thud's Plasma is better because of the faster refire rate.

Seriously, if one of those Plasmas does 60 damage (I think that's the right number, but I don't want to look for my KS manual right now), than 4 of them would give you 240 damage, which isn't really that much less than the heavy Plasma from Prophecy, at a better refire rate, and with a hire chance of a hit.

Even if the Heavy Plasma had the refire rate of the Thud's plasmas it'd still be useless against fighters because of the Dev's lack of speed and agility. It's meant for use against heavy slow stuff - a role for which it excels.

Oh, I disagree. If you could fire that Plasma without worrying about the refire rate, you would be able to fire more shots, therefore have a highter possibilty of a hit.

As for gunnery accuracy, while in the Dev I always ignore the final score I'm given. I simply keep track of how many times I fire and how many times I hit. The percentage always goes up compared to my performance in other fighters, particularly since there are always bug capships handy

If WC were for real the Heavy Plasma would replace the torp. Because when you make your run you don't have to worry about flying in a straight line to maintain the lock.

You can lock the torp at a prety long range, a long time before the Plasma is in range, and in Prophecy you have quite a lot of room to manuver in which you don't have to worry about loosing lock compared to the earlier games.

You could dodge as much as necessary.

If you doge too much the capship might never get destroyed. Also if you fire the Plasma at a moment when your ship is hit by a missile, you ship can shake a little and you might miss entirely, while the torp will continue towards the target as long as the angle at which you fired it isn't too steap.

The damage is potentially more than the torps because it doesn't run out.

Oh, but it can run out. Your energy can run out, your bomber can get destroyed before your ship gets withing striking range on the enemy capship (even the Shrike has a higher survival chance then the Dev IIRC) and have you never got your guns destroyed in WC1 or WC2? Usually when my guns are destroyed in those two, my missile are still available.

What if all your torps miss or get shot down?

Plasma can also miss, an enemy fighter can run into it by accident (or a kamikazze gesture, it's happened to me on several ocasions).

Do you really want that last pesky Triton to get away because you're out of torps? Also the power doesn't run out at inconvenient times if your aims good and use of the Heavy Plasma encourages good aiming.

Not everyone has a good aim though. If you have the Prophecy Official guide you can even see how bad some of your wingmates aim is.

Y

ou also can't gamble on the possibility that sometime in the future all weapons will be able to penetrate shields. We have to plan for the here and now, not on possibilities.

It's not a gamble. Shields could have been penetrated by everything in WC1, even though you couldn't do that when the war started. Then the shield tech improved by the WC2 time and it was torps and Maces all the way. Than by the WC3 time weapons improved and you could again use all weapons, and than came Prophecy where the shield tech improved again.

And right now those torps are taking up space better reserved for fuel, decoys and regular missiles.

Maybe on the Dev, but there are plenty of ships that probably wouldn't be able to carry guns that heavy. There still are T-bolts with torps, there are Vampires and Panthers, and there are Shrikes. Besides, the same can be said about the heavy Plasma. The speed and agilty of the Dev could improve without the Plasma, more missiles could be placed inside, as well as decoys and fuel.

Have you seen how much damage a Heavy Plasma does? Even the most rabid Devil Ray ace would run away. Believe me I've seen it. This Devil Ray was giving me grief so I stuffed a round in his face and he quickly went away to pester my wingmen

I don't belive I ever see the bugs run away from me. A strategical withdraw, to regroup maybe. Any Devil Ray ace would be smart enough to hang around the Devs rear and blast it from there. It doesn't have the agility or speed to evade an attack from the rear, and it's turrets are way too weak.

You've got to admit that taking out a capship with something small is always a rush. All you need is enough patience and perserverance.

It is a rush, but like I said many times, if you have to restart the mission 20 times, it'll get anoying and finally frustraiting.

If Maniac can eject close to Kilrah's orbit and survive I think you can survive being near an exploding capship.

Maniac is an exception, he survives everything. Besides, Maniac had enough time to move away from Kilrah on the little boster an escape pod caries.

I've seen MIPs survive being attached to an exploding ship.

And I've blown up MIP's and seen an escape pod shooting out from them. Doesn't mean that there are any escape pods in there, especially if one person han hardly fit in there as it is.

I've survived being parked in the hangar of an exploding carrier. Trust me on this Earthworm

Oh, so have I, many, many times. Doesn't mean that it should be like that though.

 

[Knight]

And I say that Thud's Plasma is better because of the faster refire rate.

Seriously, if one of those Plasmas does 60 damage (I think that's the right number, but I don't want to look for my KS manual right now), than 4 of them would give you 240 damage, which isn't really that much less than the heavy Plasma from Prophecy, at a better refire rate, and with a hire chance of a hit.

I hope you mean higher. Lets think about what you just said. A better refire rate....you're preached about that so damn much, I'm guessing you're accuracy sucks

Go spend some more time in the sim

J/K.

Oh, I disagree. If you could fire that Plasma without worrying about the refire rate, you would be able to fire more shots, therefore have a highter possibilty of a hit.

Naw, you just have to make sure you did it right the first time. That's why you'll see me flying around killing fighters. I did it right the first time.

You can lock the torp at a prety long range, a long time before the Plasma is in range, and in Prophecy you have quite a lot of room to manuver in which you don't have to worry about loosing lock compared to the earlier games.

Yeah, locking at long ranges is OK, but 20,000 klicks doesn't last long on a torp run, especially when you consider it takes 20+ seconds for it to lock. Figure in 10-20 fighters on your back wanting to see your ship roast, then tell me you want to wait on a torp lock. Better to go in on full AB, blow the shields with dumbfires, loop around on AB, kill the engines, get outside turret range, make another loop and make your bridge run. Easiest and best way to take down any capship. Screw picking off turrets. No Capship has too much teeth

If you doge too much the capship might never get destroyed. Also if you fire the Plasma at a moment when your ship is hit by a missile, you ship can shake a little and you might miss entirely, while the torp will continue towards the target as long as the angle at which you fired it isn't too steap.

Like I said. If you do it right the first damn time, it's over. If you dont' do it right, you can make another run w/the plasma. You only have 4 runs on a big ship with the torps. You have unlimited runs with the Plasma. And if recharge rate is a prob, take some juice from your engines and shields to speed it up.

Oh, but it can run out. Your energy can run out, your bomber can get destroyed before your ship gets withing striking range on the enemy capship (even the Shrike has a higher survival chance then the Dev IIRC) and have you never got your guns destroyed in WC1 or WC2? Usually when my guns are destroyed in those two, my missile are still available.

When your gun energy runs out, how will that cause the bomber to be destroyed? If you odn't worry about playing with torps, you can play with fighters, and usually killing one per pass you make on a capship is enough to make'em stay away. The Shrike is also lacking a big gun, and has alot more manuverability. That's why only the advanced squadrons get to fly the Dev. Duh. I've had my guns die on me twice I can remember. The first thing you did wrong when that happens is usually screwing with torpedos instead of getting the job done and getting on to the fun part, squashing the little bugs.

Plasma can also miss, an enemy fighter can run into it by accident (or a kamikazze gesture, it's happened to me on several ocasions).

Yeah, plasmas can miss...so....what would be your point again? you forget. You have 6 torps. 2 big, 4 little. As long as you're still able to move, you usually have your guns. WTF are you thinking?

Not everyone has a good aim though. If you have the Prophecy Official guide you can even see how bad some of your wingmates aim is.

I can tell you're one of them

Maybe on the Dev, but there are plenty of ships that probably wouldn't be able to carry guns that heavy. There still are T-bolts with torps, there are Vampires and Panthers, and there are Shrikes. Besides, the same can be said about the heavy Plasma. The speed and agilty of the Dev could improve without the Plasma, more missiles could be placed inside, as well as decoys and fuel.

Yeah, but you're missing the point. Vamps and Pants carry light torps. If you look at the pics of them, there's a slight size difference. Shrikes, yes, I'll agree, they need their armaments. The point you're missing, is that while the Plasma puts a load on the Dev, and takes away it's capacity, it's basically like an unlimited torpedo rack.

I don't belive I ever see the bugs run away from me. A strategical withdraw, to regroup maybe. Any Devil Ray ace would be smart enough to hang around the Devs rear and blast it from there. It doesn't have the agility or speed to evade an attack from the rear, and it's turrets are way too weak.

I've always seen bugs run. Any Devil Ray hasn't had the chance to get to my rear. Another advantage to beign about to get rid of capships quickly.

It is a rush, but like I said many times, if you have to restart the mission 20 times, it'll get anoying and finally frustraiting.

No, not really. I think you need some more practice. Maybe you should go play some more

Maniac is an exception, he survives everything. Besides, Maniac had enough time to move away from Kilrah on the little boster an escape pod caries.

Hm.....Look at the screen when you eject. It throws you a hellva lot farther than I've been from a capship at times when they go up.
Sorry, had to jump back into the conversation at one point or another

------------------
Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

 

[Earthworm]

Lets think about what you just said. A better refire rate....you're preached about that so damn much, I'm guessing you're accuracy sucks

Go spend some more time in the sim

J/K.

Nope, my accuracy doesn't suck. I'm usually in the middle 60%, but I always prefered my guns faster, with medium damage (and I definetly don't like bombers with only two guns, one of them a light weapon that runs on ammo). That's why the Mass Drivers have been my favorite weapon in WC1 and WC2, and later weapons like the Particle cannon, or the light Tachyon.

Yeah, locking at long ranges is OK, but 20,000 klicks doesn't last long on a torp run, especially when you consider it takes 20+ seconds for it to lock.

20+ seconds? It's more like 6 for the light torps (which is only a little more than the leech missile from WC4), and 12 seconds for the heavy torp. And the times are even shorter for the enhanced versions of the torps.

Figure in 10-20 fighters on your back wanting to see your ship roast, then tell me you want to wait on a torp lock. Better to go in on full AB, blow the shields with dumbfires, loop around on AB, kill the engines, get outside turret range, make another loop and make your bridge run. Easiest and best way to take down any capship.

If you can blow the shields with any weapon, including the DF, you definetly wouldn't need a Plasma weapon.

Besides, bombers usually have escorts and strong shielding. So if there were 20 fighters on your ass, there would be couple other bombers around you, and 10-15 escorts to take care of the bugs. You could definetly fire enough torps, especially in Prophecy with it's unrealistic combat.

Like I said. If you do it right the first damn time, it's over. If you dont' do it right, you can make another run w/the plasma. You only have 4 runs on a big ship with the torps. You have unlimited runs with the Plasma.

You wouldn't need more than two runs with the torps though.

When your gun energy runs out, how will that cause the bomber to be destroyed?

Uh, I didn't say runing out of energy will destroy your bomber...

The Shrike is also lacking a big gun, and has alot more manuverability.

Lacking a big gun? What about the CMD's?

Yeah, plasmas can miss...so....what would be your point again? you forget. You have 6 torps. 2 big, 4 little. As long as you're still able to move, you usually have your guns. WTF are you thinking?

No, you tell me WTF you're talking about. My point is that while a torp can miss it's target, so can the Plasma. I'm simply saying that "torps can miss" is not a walid point, because everything can miss.

I can tell you're one of them

Yeah, whatever. Because I don't like an oversized gun that should be on a corvette instead on a bomber means I have a bad aim.

Yeah, but you're missing the point. Vamps and Pants carry light torps. If you look at the pics of them, there's a slight size difference. Shrikes, yes, I'll agree, they need their armaments. The point you're missing, is that while the Plasma puts a load on the Dev, and takes away it's capacity, it's basically like an unlimited torpedo rack.

I'd rather have a limited torp rack, because I'll almost never need all the torps the Dev caries, but I could use a little more speed or better guns.

I've always seen bugs run. Any Devil Ray hasn't had the chance to get to my rear. Another advantage to beign about to get rid of capships quickly.

That's because the bug AI is crappy.

I see bugs fly away... and then come back straight at me with full guns blazing. I've never seen them run away from the fight, that includes the times when I fired the Heavy Plasma.

No, not really. I think you need some more practice. Maybe you should go play some more

Oh come one. Don't tell me you can take out some of the toughest capships that WC3 has to offer in an Arrow or the Hellcat while flying on one of the two highest difficulties, without any wingman, at your first try. Or the first five, ten for that matter. Having to go through a mission more than 10 times is at least 5 times too many. Now, if you've been talking about doing that on Rookie difficulty, well maybe it's you who has the bad aim.

Hm.....Look at the screen when you eject. It throws you a hellva lot farther than I've been from a capship at times when they go up.

Hm, perhaps that's because that the WC capships don't cause any damage to you, even when you're near them, while they should be doing just that. The movie shows that quite nicely, and so do the novels.


[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited October 09, 2000).]

 

[Quarto]

Earthworm says:
No, you tell me WTF you're talking about. My point is that while a torp can miss it's target, so can the Plasma. I'm simply saying that "torps can miss" is not a walid point, because everything can miss.

There's a fatal flaw in your reasoning, as Knight attempted to point out. Yes, both plasma and torpedoes can miss. However, the plasma is not a fire-and-forget weapon. It is a gun; that is, it can be fired as many times as you like, provided you're still alive.

That having been said, I am by no means in support of scrapping the torpedo. The two weapons compliment each other. Remember, a light torpedo can be mounted on a lighter ship, whereas the plasma gun is a tad too large for that...

 

[Penguin]

Earthworm: "I say that Thud's Plasma is better because of the faster refire rate." I disagree. You may prefer a faster refire rate but I think it would be lost on the Dev. The honest truth is the Dev is too slow and too clumsy to track a fighter. If you can't hit it the first time chances are your subsequent shots will go wide of the mark. Hence the added incentive to not miss leading to better gunnery scores.
The problem with waiting for torp lock is that there are always fighters breathing down your back. Sure there may be plenty of friendly fighters and bombers around you but I think we can take it for granted that at least 1 bandit is going to try to make our day hell. And concentrating on maintaining your lock means reduced situational awareness. It let's a bug get close and score that missile hit or at least force you to break away losing the lock. The Heavy Plasma is better in this respect, since when approaching the target you're not fretting on lock - you can maintain evasive maneouvers and deal with each threat as it emerges.
If you get killed before reaching the target having torps isn't going to miraculously kill it. I do remember getting my guns blown off in WC1/2. Usually I lost my missiles as well. But this is WCP and for better or worse my guns are much more survivable.
So what if you miss with the plasma? It's got unlimited rounds. As for aim - we are simulating actual combat pilots. We get paid to have good aim. We don't go to space academy to goof off. I'm not saying that you have to hit 100% or anything like that but when it comes to wacking capship components with the Heavy Plasma, you certainly shouldn't be missing.
As for shields and weapons. Just because it happened before doesn't mean gun tech is going to improve to the point where it can penetrate capship shields. As I said before we have to plan for operational realities and right now that reality is shields are impervious to all except torps and Heavy Plasma. There is no indication that this will change.
As for the space that torps take up - good point. I didn't even consider the Shrike et al.
If you're in a Dev and somebody attacks from behind, drop your mines. This should get them off your ass.
Blowing up big ships with small ones requires skill and patience - both cardinal vitues

If you say something is but shouldn't be that way then you can argue anything. The Heavy Plasma should do more damage or fire faster, turrets ought to be more effective, etc. But again we have to face the reality and that reality is what we see in the games.

Wedge009: My point is when attacking components you usually have enough energy to nail it before you run out of power.

Knight: Earthworm makes a valid point about the refire rate. It's just the Dev can't take advantage of it that well.
I've read real life accounts where pilots say it is a really bad thing if you have to make a second pass. The gomers will be waiting for you when you come back, seriously reducing your life expectancy. Even in WC you're very much correct - get the job done the first time round.
Devil Rays have gotten on my 6 - but I make 'em regret it

Earthworm: Preferences are your bsiness but you gotta admit the Heavy Plasma does add a whole new dimension to the game.
"You wouldn't need more than two runs with the torps though." The Heavy Plasma does the job in 1 pass

"Because I don't like an oversized gun that should be on a corvette instead on a bomber." Whoa - that's freaky man. I'll admit it - I'm not quite that rabid

Don't limit yourself. You'll come away a cropper if you do that.
"The movie shows that quite nicely, and so do the novels." You're puttting those ahead of the game? I think we all know which is more fun/important

Quarto: I've never actually stated that the torp should be phased out of service completely. I'm sure we can all quote examples of obsolescent military hardware still serving today (in both the real world and the WCU

). Still I do think the torps should at least be banished from the Dev on an optional basis.

 

[Earthworm]

I disagree. You may prefer a faster refire rate but I think it would be lost on the Dev. The honest truth is the Dev is too slow and too clumsy to track a fighter.

It’s quite easy to check that. Just load up WCPedit and make some changes and test out a Dev, with light Plasma guns. I’ve done so in the past, it improved the accuracy over the big gun (not by much though), and it was just as effective against a capship.

The problem with waiting for torp lock is that there are always fighters breathing down your back. Sure there may be plenty of friendly fighters and bombers around you but I think we can take it for granted that at least 1 bandit is going to try to make our day hell. And concentrating on maintaining your lock means reduced situational awareness. It let's a bug get close and score that missile hit or at least force you to break away losing the lock.

You can be forces to evade while with the Plasma. True, you can try again, without the need to wait for a lock (though it doesn’t take that long to get a lock for the torps) but if there is a fighter on your tail, it would most likely hang around and kill you right there. In the bomber you can still launch a torp and destroy one of the components, meanwhile you might not have enough time to fire the Plasma as many times as is needed. Remember than you can lock a torp from a long distance, but you’ll have to be 3,000 klicks away to fire the heavy Plasma.

As for shields and weapons. Just because it happened before doesn't mean gun tech is going to improve to the point where it can penetrate capship shields.

Oh, it most likely will. Tech improves all the time these days, and as we can see from various examples in the games and novels, it won’t be that long before we can penetrate these new type of shields. Now that there is this new shield, everyone will be working on improving their weapons to have an advatage over the enemy.

As I said before we have to plan for operational realities and right now that reality is shields are impervious to all except torps and Heavy Plasma.

You also have to plan for the future, always. You can’t have the Dev as your main bomber, all of them armed with the Plasma, and less torps, witch improved speed and more fuel, and then few years after they’re put into service realize that they’re all useless, because weapons tech changed again.

If you're in a Dev and somebody attacks from behind, drop your mines. This should get them off your ass.

Never seems to work IMO. It would be better if you could just program the mines for time detonation, so they’d explode like 5 seconds after you drop them.

Knight: Earthworm makes a valid point about the refire rate. It's just the Dev can't take advantage of it that well.

Try changing the guns on the Dev. You might be surprised.

Earthworm: Preferences are your bsiness but you gotta admit the Heavy Plasma does add a whole new dimension to the game.

Well, technicly, this whole thread comes down to prefrences. You might prefer the Plasma, but I don’t.

"You wouldn't need more than two runs with the torps though." The Heavy Plasma does the job in 1 pass

I acctually meant that two runs for the whole ship, not just a single component.

Don't limit yourself. You'll come away a cropper if you do that.

Well, just for you (because you’re special

) I’ll run some tests. It’ll involve me swaping some bombers, and exchanging their weapons, and than making several simulated attacks on a capship.

"The movie shows that quite nicely, and so do the novels." You're puttting those ahead of the game? I think we all know which is more fun/important

I’m not putting anything ahead of the games. It’s just that the damage capships do to your fighter in the games if you’re too close while they explode (which is none) is something that should be in those games. In this case I’m pretty sure everyone would agree, that the non-existant damage inflicted by an exploding capship in the games isn’t right.

 

[Shane]

I usually use a mix of the Plasma Gun and the light torp, occasionally the heavy, that way I am sure it is done in one run. I fire the gun as soon as it is in range and drop the torp about at about 1000. With a little practice I found I could hit any fighter with the plasma gun, and it would take most of them out with one shot.

I am not in favor of phasing ou the torps, though. The dev has a other offensive weapons(RPs and FFs.), but if something were to go wrong with the gun, those weapons are useless against a capship. The Dev isn't supposed to be an all around fighter, it is supposed to be the premier ship for taking out capships and it does that quite nicely. Part of what makes it so good is the array of anti-capship weaponry it carries, both the torps and the Plasma gun. With the Dev I feel pretty confident I can fly in, use the plasma gun to take out the shield generators, AB and swing in to take out the enginess with a mix of torp and guns, go over the top of the ship, wing around and use the same mix on the bridge and get trhough with some shiled damage but no armor hits. Once the cap ship is done I can play with fighters. But that is just a personal preference thing for me.

 

[Wedge009]

I'm glad there are pilots out there who can hit fighters with the plasma too.

 

[Mad Hatter]

A few things you`re not taking into account, Earthworm, are that, for one, you have to maintain lock with a heavy torp for 12 whole seconds. If someone throws you off aim, you have to start all over again, whereas with the Plasma gun, you don`t need to maintain your aim at all. Just get within range, aim, fire. that`s it.
So what if you can fire a torp from 20,000 klicks. it just means the enemy has more time to react and shoot down your torpedo. Enemy fighters will be harrassing at 20,000 klicks just as much as they will at 3,000. Plus, you can`t shoot down a Plasma blast, unless you fly into it. And, the Plasma blast is faster than a torp, so it`s harder to catch up with or intercept.
One last thing, you said it takes 1 pass for a whole capship with a torp? BS. Even if you meant per component, big capships require at the least 1 heavy torp and 1 light torp to destroy either engines or bridge. That`s 18 seconds minimum, provided you fired your 1st torp, stayed on target, switched weapons, got a lock and fired in one single run. Impossible. Unless you`re playing at rookie level, or you`ve got the invincibility option on.
With the Plasma gun you can get in at least 3 shots in 1 run, and you`d only have to slow down a bit to get the 4th and final shot in.

 

[Penguin]

Earthworm: "Just load up WCPedit and make some changes and test out a Dev, with light Plasma guns." Using WCPEdit to make the Dev better is just the same as using invincibility. The Dev was never meant to dogfight - hence all the turrets and slow firing main gun.
I think the Heavy Plasma is simply more reliable than the torp. It can't be shot down in mid-flight & it doesn't run out. So what if you're forced to evade - just come back. Waiting for lock just gives the enemy more time to get you, while the Heavy Plasma gives you more leeway in evasive manouvers.
As for the new shields - we don't know that the techs will be successful in upgrading existing weapons to penetrate shields. I say make it possible to replace the torps with something more useful because it increases flexibility and IMHO makes it easier to wax capships. Suppose that weapons tech does improve - if so then we can assume that shield tech improves as well. We have no assurances that either the Heavy Plasma or torps (enhanced or not) will be able to penetrate. I don't suppose you think WC2 torps could penetrate WCP era shields. All I'm saying is we have to adjust our existing ships and weapons to best fit the existing situation. If you're comfortable with torps, fine - me? I'd rather have extra fuel and decoys. As for the future, we'll deal with that when it happens.
Admittedly the mines aren't failsafe but sometimes they work, especially if you drop enough

"Well, just for you (because you’re special ) I’ll run some tests. It’ll involve me swaping some bombers, and exchanging their weapons, and than making several simulated attacks on a capship." Whatever makes you happy

OK, true an exploding capship should do some damage. But I'm talking about dealing with what actually happens and right now my planning doesn't take that damage into account because it doesn't happen.

Shane: I've never said "torps, this is the end of the line. You've done your part but now to the boneyard with yee." I'm more in line with an option like replacing them with something more akin to your personal preferences. Again this is wholly OPTIONAL.
Even when flying the Dev I find it necesary to take out the defending fighters before getting to work on the capships. They're so pesky, always ruining near perfect runs

Besides wingmen never seem able to cope and the mission objective screen usually says "kill 66% of enemy fighters."

Wedge009: You won't get far if can't hit anything with the plasma

Mad Hatter: Exactly.

[This message has been edited by Penguin (edited October 10, 2000).]

 

[Earthworm]

So what if you can fire a torp from 20,000 klicks. it just means the enemy has more time to react and shoot down your torpedo.

First, torps aren't that easy to shoot down as you seem to. Second, because you can fire it at 20,000 klicks, you can quickly start locking another torp in case the first one is not enough, well before you're in Plasma range. Oh, and BTW, the enhanced heavy torp has a lock range of 22,000 klicks and a lock time of 10 seconds. And I'm using those as an example, because by the time you have an access to the Dev, the enhance torps should also be available.

Enemy fighters will be harrassing at 20,000 klicks just as much as they will at 3,000.

Not if they still didn't get near you, and at least you won't have to worry about turret fire. Plus, Prophecy being as unrealistic as it is, fighters aren't that much of a problem.

Plus, you can`t shoot down a Plasma blast, unless you fly into it.

Shooting down a torp isn't easy though, especially for the bug AI. I don't belive I've ever seen them take out a torp.

And, the Plasma blast is faster than a torp, so it`s harder to catch up with or intercept.

Yes, it is faster, but the torp is also faster than most fighters, and it can make course changes (at least according to the novels).

One last thing, you said it takes 1 pass for a whole capship with a torp? BS.

No, I said one pass for one component.

Even if you meant per component, big capships require at the least 1 heavy torp and 1 light torp to destroy either engines or bridge.

Technicly yes. At nightmare level, a carrier will require two heavy, and one light torp for example, but we can blame that on the people who made Prophecy, because they decided to make the capships with much stronger armor on higher difficulty levels, instead of just more dangerous. The Leviathans engine for example, has an armor of 2000. So one enhanced heavy torp should take it out.

That`s 18 seconds minimum, provided you fired your 1st torp, stayed on target, switched weapons, got a lock and fired in one single run. Impossible. Unless you`re playing at rookie level, or you`ve got the invincibility option on.

Why would it be impossible? You can either make another run, or park behind the engine/bridge and fire away, just like you would with the Plasma.

With the Plasma gun you can get in at least 3 shots in 1 run, and you`d only have to slow down a bit to get the 4th and final shot in.

The Plasma range is 3,000 klicks. Before you get that close you could fire at least two torps...

 

[Earthworm]

Using WCPEdit to make the Dev better is just the same as using invincibility.

No, it's just a little experiment.

The Dev was never meant to dogfight - hence all the turrets and slow firing main gun.

Technicly no bomber is meant to dogfight, yet there are plenty of bombers that can do that quite well.


I'll try to respond to the rest later, for now I just skimmed through it.

 

[Knight]

First, torps aren't that easy to shoot down as you seem to.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh. I see now. You've been playing on Rookie where torps aren't shot down....that explains it. Christ, give the AI some credit. If there's any Lamprey's around, and you fire a torp from 20,000 clicks, if they have to make a suicide run, they'll blow up that damn torp. I've seen it happen. They run to torps like stink on shit. I've seen Moray's with enough aim and skills to take out torps. I've had wingmen fly into the dman things. Done, one torp down. Fire another, Ok, that one got through. Go to bridge, fire one light, turrets take it down. Fly out, regroup, make another run, bug on my ass, loose lock, start all over. Regroup, make another run, This time light torp gets through. YES! Bridge still alive, down to one wingman, and 3 escorts, with yet another transport left to go.

The example you just read is why I HATE the Shrike. The ship has nothing. No speed, no manuverablity, no arament. The CMDs are nice, but what will they do against a capship? How about on a quick Devil Ray where their power can really be put to use. It's almost as slow as the plasma, however, if you cna get close enough on a run with the plasma, guess what? It's kinda hard to miss that damn engine, whether you're hit by a missle or not, when you see nothign but engine!

------------------
Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

 

[Ice Viper]

Look, if it was up to me, my bombers would be fighters, like the Excal, loaded to the teeth with torps. They would have a huge chance of surviving compared to a Longbow or Dev.