What ever happened to the WC4 improvements???

Earthworm: "That's like your carriers not being safe while docked in some baval base on the east coast of the US."

Two questions: What the? Explain please.

And 'baval base'? ;)
 
What's the to explain?

If your carriers aren't safe in practilcy the heart of the Confederation, then where could they be safe?
 
Earthworm: Ahh. I get it. You're right. This just proves that Confed should keep escort ships near at all times.
 
Regarding the St. Helens, perhaps she had escorts :).

Regarding the Eisen... in '73, the Midways were completely non-existent. Remember, they were Blair's project, and at this time Blair was only just starting his (post-Crisis) BW assignment, so he obvoui. Thus, if the Vesuvii are hellishly expensive, it's not a matter of saying "Oh, that's all right. We'll build a Midway instead". Obviously, a new ship is needed - one that can take a Vesuvius' place, but not its pricetag.
And yes, a heavy CV might be costly to develop... but do you really think that Tolwyn's pet Vesuvii were the only ship designs being considered? I think not. Any Navy thinking of building a new class will have more than one design in the contest for the money. Thus, we can be certain that this alternative heavy CV class already existed (on paper, of course). Therefore, what it comes down to is the construction pricetags, and presumably Tolwyn's designed-to-be-invincible Vesuvius would have had a much higher price... and, embarrasingly enough, had just been proven not-so-invincible.
 
Very convincing argument Quatro, one that I tend to agree with, the Vesuvii were just too expensive. But as to them not being invincible, while I agree that no ship can be invincible I bet that that cutscene where the st. helens was destroyed could just as easily been the midway and it was the St. Helens that took on the Nephilim all by itself.
 
Quarto: What you're saying makes sense, but why would a cash strapped navy operate 3 separate classes of heavy carrier? Especially since it has to build all of them on its less than adequate budget. No matter how cheap the Midway & this hypothesized 3rd carrier is its going to have a cumulatively high value.
I also got the impression that the Vesuvius was meant to be better than anything the cats had, hence his remark. I don't think he was arrogant enough to believe that his precious carrier would be invincible.

Napoleon: Play WCP and lose a few missions. You'll see plenty of cutscenes of the Midway getting blown to bits.
 
Napoleon: I'm not referring to St. Helens... I'm talking about the TCS Vesuvius, in '73. Right there, off the bat, the Vesuvius class was proven as vulnerable as anything else. Sure, it took a flashpack and all that, but most Senators wouldn't have appreciated that distinction.

Penguin: You forget, the Midway didn't exist back then. The Midway seems mostly to be Blair's idea, and I certainly don't recall him carrying any blueprints around in WC4 :). So, when, after Tolwyn's trial, the Senate would have started debating about spending money on a hellishly expensive carrier class put forward by a madman, the contest would not be between Midway, Vesuvius, and this third class. It would only be between Vesuvius and the third - or rather, second - class.
As for Tolwyn, he wouldn't have been arrogant enough for that, but he would have certainly tried to convince the Senate that the Vesuvii are invincible. Which certainly makes the loss of the nameship all the more embarassing ;).
 
Quarto: Fair enough. But spending on more than 1 type of carrier is still going to run up costs significantly. Besides surely the existence of at least 3 Vesuvius carriers & a similar number of the hypothesized other carriers, would've eliminated the need for the Midways. But then again if the hypothesized carrier didn't exist then maybe that would justify construction of the Midway class as the last Concordia class ships were phased out.
 
Let's just agree that no one knows what the hell the Eisen is...

Also note that the Prophecy manual states this about the Vamp: "Usually assigned to heavy fleet carriers..." and the Prophecy Guide: "...generally serves with heavier fleet carriers".

So the Eisen didn't necesarily have to be a heavy carrier.

I don't agree however that Confed would have built another class of carriers. Building few more Vesuvius class ships would be cheaper than building an entire new drydock for this new class and than the new ships.

Also, with several Concordias left, possibly some Confederation class ships, and God only knows how many older lighter carriers, I don't think there would be absolutely any need for a new class of heavy carriers, especially during peace time. Just look at how many problems Tolwyn was having with getting the two Vesuvius class ships, and then the fighters for all of his precious carriers. Even with Paladin in the senate the Navy couldn't count on endless funds.
 
I find that I am not sure as to the existance of a third new heavy carrier class but I am sure that the Vesuvii probably wouldn't be the primary heavy carriers because of prohibitive costs, I find it much more likely that there are 4-5 vesuvii ever made which means 2-3 still around and then the 10 Midways are desinged to replace the aging Concordia's and Confederation Dreadnoughts. BTW does anybody know what happend to AM cannons? I mean in the WCIII handbook it mentions that they exist but then they are not seen on any ship. Also what happend to the Phase transit cannon?
 
Anti-matter turrets are still present in WC3, although I don't think they're listed in any of the manuals. But some of the turrets on the Kilrathi cruiser, or the corvette are just too strong to be lasers.

Meanwhile, the PTC was retired in 2665.
 
Originally posted by Napoleon
BTW does anybody know what happend to AM cannons? I mean in the WCIII handbook it mentions that they exist but then they are not seen on any ship.
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One might call the heavy ion cannon we see on several capships analogous to the AMG from WCII. Though not the same gun per se, the typical loadout and damage potential is similar.

For those that may not be familiar with the heavy ion cannon, they are the yellow-gold shots from the Kilrathi cruisers. The rear turret on the corvette may be some form of heavy ion as well, though there is no definitive record of exactly what that gun is.
 
Those Heavy Ion Cannons are also the Primary armament on the Vesuvius Class Carriers. But as for the Phase Transit Cannons, during WCII it worked quite well on the Connie, unless my memory is fading, I wonder exactly what were the "problems"
 
Originally posted by Napoleon
But as for the Phase Transit Cannons, during WCII it worked quite well on the Connie, unless my memory is fading, I wonder exactly what were the "problems"
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According to the novels (IIRC), they had a tendency to overload and explode. It was also dangerous to fire them at less than full charge. This is alluded to in WCII: Special Operations 2, when Tolwyn -- commanding the CONCORDIA -- destroys a Kamekh despite Angel's protest that the PTC may explode.

Because the full charge took time, and because the PTC wasn't terribly accurate, it was not a very efficient weapon in general. A spread of torpedos is, IMO, a better option.

[Edited by OriginalPhoenix on 01-15-2001 at 23:35]
 
Originally posted by Earthworm
Let's just agree that no one knows what the hell the Eisen is...
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I can accept that ;). My whole point was that there's simply not enough evidence to call it a Vesuvius.

**So the Eisen didn't necesarily have to be a heavy carrier.** - A good point.

I don't agree however that Confed would have built another class of carriers. Building few more Vesuvius class ships would be cheaper than building an entire new drydock for this new class and than the new ships.
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New drydock? I hate to tell you this, but new drydocks don't have to be built every time you want a new class of capship. I mean, you have to upgrade your shipyards every few years, but you definitely don't build new ones.

Just look at how many problems Tolwyn was having with getting the two Vesuvius class ships, and then the fighters for all of his precious carriers. Even with Paladin in the senate the Navy couldn't count on endless funds.
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Of course not, but note that all the ships we see in WCP were developed and built after WC4... the Navy isn't as poor as they'd like us to believe.

But of course, at the end of the day, I can only hypothesize, and not prove anything except the possibility. So, I think as long as we all agree that we don't know what the hell the Eisen is...
 
Originally posted by Quarto
New drydock? I hate to tell you this, but new drydocks don't have to be built every time you want a new class of capship. I mean, you have to upgrade your shipyards every few years, but you definitely don't build new ones.
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From what I understand, each class has it’s own specific drydock that’s it’s build in, and it can vary greatly from the others, while there are repair facilities to service most classes.
 
I doubt thats necessary, for example if there is a dry dock built to accomodade the construction of a Vesuvius and confed wants to make a concordia (if they wanted to) then the concordia could fit into the dry dock and all that would need to be done is retool the construction yard.
 
Well, EW... let's look at the real world as an example. Does anybody out there build brand new shipyards every time they want to build a new class of ships? Didn't think so.
 
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