What ever happened to the WC4 improvements???

Discussion in 'General Wing Commander Chat' started by Napoleon, Jan 7, 2001.

  1. Napoleon

    Napoleon Spaceman

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    Hi all, I have recently been playing WC4 and it made me think "Where are the Flash Packs and Cloaking devices and no fuel afterburners in Prophesy?" Could somebody answer me because it makes absolutly no sense to me that Confed would forget about all these technologies that worked so well. Also does anybody know how many Vesuvius class super carriers were made since they seem like they are on par if not better than midways. Think about it in WC4 inorder to take out the Vesuvius one cannot just fire a Torpedo into the ship, no one must either use a flash pack or launch Torps from within the hangar. Whereas with the Midway, all the Nephilim had to do was take out the shield gen, then the engines and the bridge, once just for fun I took her out myself in an Avenger. I just couldn't figure that one out. Also one last thing, in Wc4 and Wc3 the weapons were fired as streaks where as in Prophesy the weapons were sometimes spherical and sometimes eliptical in shape, the way they are simulated in Wc4 and Wc3 is much more realistic than the way they are simulated in WCP. So why with a more advanced engine are weapons less realistic instead of more so???? Well thats about all here, I look forward to hearing everybodies resonses.
     
  2. Earthworm

    Earthworm Spaceman

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    It makes sense, considering that Prophecy is almost ten years after WC4, so obviously those great *improvements* weren't so great anymore.

    First, the Flash Packs. Already in WC4, the Vesuvius's armor and shielding made the FP's useless, so you'd think that by the Prophecy time Confed would be using the same technology that made them useless.

    Second, cloaking. Even before WC4 there were ways of detecting cloaked ships, and in WC4 cloaked Lances (Dragons) could see other cloaked ships. Besides, in the Prophecy manual 7 Excaliburs which were to find out what exactly happened in Kilrah are mentioned. All of them carried cloaking devices, only one of them made it back home... makes you think doesn't it?

    Third, no fuel AB's. Those aren't present because they never existed... The only reason why the Lances had semingly unlimited afterburner fuel, was because they had matter/antimatter power plants, like the ones on capships, therefore making the Lances horribly expensive. The peace time fleet is never to happy about spending credits on high tech toys.:)


    We know of only four Vesuvius class ships. The Vesuvius and St Hellens from WC4, the Eisen, which is mentioned in Prophecy, and the McKinley which is mentioned in SO. Both the Vesuvius and St Hellens were of course destroyed.

    Eh, first of all, the Midway doesn't have any shield generators that have to be destroyed before taking out the bridge/engines. Second, Midway was build a decade after the Vesuvius, it uses simillar if not the same armor/shielding, but weapons tech has improved, making it easier to destroy the Midway. Notice though, how easy it was to destroy the St. Hellens in SO.

    First, some weapons in Prophecy still loked like the ones from WC3/WC4, but now looked much better because of the new engine. Second, why did they suposedly look more realistic in WC3/WC4? The Mass Drivers, for one, looked more like what they're suposed to be in Prophecy.
     
  3. Napoleon

    Napoleon Spaceman

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    First, One can kill the Vesuvius with the FP, I've done it.

    Second, thanks for clearing up the Vesuvius class super-carrier bit.

    Third, I find the Particle and the Cloudbust cannons in SO and P to be very unrealistic, but I will give you the Mass driver bit.
    Fourth, As you have said tech has changed as such shouldn't the M/AM drives be cheaper in 2681 than they were in 2673? as such shouldn't they be economically fesable?

    Fifth, In the eight years in between WC4 and WCP shouldn't there still be some of the ships still in service, How come we don't see and Tallahasse class cruisers and how have all the Murphy destroyers and Plunkett cruisers been made when it is peacetime and military expenditures are down 45% from the war time peak (Waypoint in the WCPGold manual pg 79)


    New question, what is the exact timepoints of WCII SO 1 and 2, because I have never been completely sure about when they are taking place especially about the Interval between them and the destruction of the Connie at the begining of WCIII, considering that the truce and obviously some ofther things had taken place in the interval.
     
  4. Napoleon

    Napoleon Spaceman

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    Just thought of something, perhaps Tolwyn was proven right by the Nephilim invasion, perhaps if the Black lance had still been around there might have been less damage from the Nephilim invasion. IN the WCIII novel the Kilrathi knew that the Nephilim were coming (though they never actually said Nephilim they said something that was dark ect.) so maybe Tolwyn was in fact so convicted about "perfecting our methods of killing" because he knew that the Nephilim or at least something was comming? its an interesting thought, while he may have been right on some counts Genselect was just wrong, but I also disagree with some people's comparison of him to hitler. Because the Gen-Select actually targeted people logically unlike the Nazi's who just killed the Jews for no good reason. If a genocide must take place (which it never does) I would rather have it weed out the genetically inferior rather than just killing a group that is in no way inferior. While this may be a controversal opinion it makes logical sense if one removes illogical opinion and emotion.
    Well thank you earthworm for answering some of my questions even if I disagree with some of your answers I do appreciat your taking the time to respond.
     
  5. OriginalPhoenix

    OriginalPhoenix Professor Emeritus

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    Destroying the VESUVIUS

    Napolean,

    You do not need torps against the VESUVIUS. A single dumbfire, fired inside the hangar, destroys it.
     
  6. Chernikov

    Chernikov Spaceman

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    The Nazis considered the Jews and pretty much everyone but themselves to be genetically inferior...


    funny you should say that, I have also. It's just that you have to manage to make it inside a moving, turning ship. The only reason it was so easy with the Ves was the sheer size of the thing. With a smaller carrier, it would be near impossible to make it inside, necessitating an outside attack run (on which ships a torpedo would do just as well on, if not better!) With a larger ship, it might still be practical if impenretable shields over the hangar bays had not been invented, as well as the annoying little detail of the launch-tube system, which again proves impractical to use a flashpak against.


    hmm, how are they unrealistic? balls of superhot plasma trailing off as the energy surge slacks off, pretty much what its supposed to be IIRC. Although I have to admit, the mass driver is about as realistic as it gets (although not very pretty)
    as far as energy weapons and realism, there was a patch that made lasers look like LONG BEAM lasers, had different skins, etc., but I lost the link. Anyone know where that would be?


    those ships were on the way out in WC4, the main reason you saw them so much was that the programmers were lazy :D(well, official line is they were outdated and being sold to the smaller nations.) they were old in WC3, who knows what was in the main battle fleets of that time? the plunketts and such, improved shielding, and Really Big Guns could have been in early prototype stage and not worth scrapping at that point, as well as being harder to destroy (sure its still possible to kill a Murphy, but not with all ships and definitely not as quickly as it was to kill a destroyer in WC3 and 4...
     
  7. Quarto

    Quarto Unknown Enemy

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    Regarding the ancient Midway vs. Vesuvius argument, notice that in the WCP engine, the Midway and the Vesuvius are killed in exactly the same way: take out the bridge and the engines. Thus, you cannot possibly argue that the Vesuvius is in any way superior.

    As for WCII SO1 and SO2, the exact dates are in the CIC's Timeline, I believe. All I remember is that they take place immediately after WCII, and there's quite a significant gap between SO2 and the truce.
     
  8. StarLight

    StarLight Spaceman

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    what level are u playing on?

    btw...the flashpak is ONLY supposed to work on the insdie of the vesuvius. if u listen to pliers he talks about the outside of the vesuvius being made of some material that protected it from teh flashpak, but the best shot of making it work was from the inside...if u wasted the superbase with the flashpak, pliers will again say to try and waste the vesuvius from teh inside with ur torps

    and i don't recall wcp saying that the eisen carrier group had a vesuvius class carrier...just said that "the eisen carrier group"
    if the other two supercarriers existed, they must have been built after wc4, because that's all we saw in construction in the game...

    btw..."Vesuvius class carrier" - I don't get that...do they name the class of the carrier after the first ship they build in the class? because I thought that the st helens would have been the first as it was 01 and the vesuvius was 02 (the number on their carrier which i am suspecting is just to keep track of which carrier it is and in which order they were built...makes sense to build 1 before 2, eh?)
     
  9. OriginalPhoenix

    OriginalPhoenix Professor Emeritus

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    Sorry, should have specified. On DEFAULT level, the VESUVIUS can be destroyed with one Dumbfire missile inside. On the next level up, it takes two. Haven't tried it on nightmare.

    There is some question as to whether the EISEN is VESUVIUS-class or merely a standard CONCORDIA-class vessel. However, some time ago on the alt.games.wing-commander newsgroup, someone (I think it was LOAF) posed an great arguement for it being the former.

    Actually, the VESUVIUS is 01, and the ST. HELENS is 02. The programmers seemed to get these mixed up at several points in the game (convenience or availability of the digital models, perhaps?), but the VESUVIUS is indeed the first.
     
  10. Death's Head

    Death's Head Spaceman

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    The vesuvius takes more work to destroy than a midway, as I recall. Each engine, I think is more heavily armored and there is a third set of engines whereas the midway has two.
     
  11. Earthworm

    Earthworm Spaceman

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    The only way to destroy the Vesuvius with an FP, is to fire it inside its hangar, where it has no shields or armor. You can’t destroy it if the FP is fired outside…

    You still haven’t explained why are they less realistic though…
    Cheaper doesn’t always acount for affordable. We’re talking about a minaturized power plant from a capital ship, it’s going to be much more expensive than a normal plant.

    Just because we don’t see them doesn’t mean they’re not there. The Midway has been seperated from any Confed ships for most of the game, so it’s not like you should be running into Tallahasses in every system.
    Maybe the Murphy and Plunkett classes are cheaper than maintaing the aging war-era ships.
     
  12. Earthworm

    Earthworm Spaceman

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    Uh, if Tolwyn continued with his plan, 90% of Confeds population would be dead by the time the Nephilim cam. If so, what remained from Confed would be completely destroyed.
    Towlyn wanted to perfect the methods of killing, because he believed that some day a race that is more powerfull than Kilrathi would come, and we had to be ready. He wasn’t refering to any particular races however.

    Hitler was killing of the jews because he didn’t belive they were as good as the Germans. He wanted to create a geneticly superior race, just like Tolwyn.
     
  13. Napoleon

    Napoleon Spaceman

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    The diffence between tolwyn and hitler is that hitler based his idea of inferiority on prejudice and hate whereas Tolwyn based his on science and logic. I doubt that Tolwyn hated the "inferior" people, he just saw them as something that was limiting humanity, something that might very well have been the case.
    Also tolwyn was right in that we needed to prepare for the "next race" but some of his methods were wrong (Gen-Sel to be specific).
     
  14. Napoleon

    Napoleon Spaceman

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    Another thing when I say less realistic for the weapons I mean that the "streak" weapons are for the most part more physically correct, while making several weapons fire in other shapes (like ovles(sp.)ect.)Some weapons were more accurate and thus I didnt mention those, but the ones I did mention I felt looked less realistic to my eye.

    Yet another thing, 8 years isnt that long a time so a ship that is state of the art in 2673 would still be very good in 2681, just look at how long the Victory was in service. I am not specifically saying that the Midway's were worse than the Vesuvius but what I am saying is that the Vesuvius was pretty good and wiht perhaps a few technological upgrades could have eliminated the need for a Midway. Also Im not sure if this is right or not but I remeber in the cutscene where you are talking to hawk and panther deciding whether or not to use the FP on the Ella base, at the very begining there is something on a display that has the Vesuvius and then 32 and IonCannons, so maybe she had 32 Ion turrets (just speculation) in place of or in addition to laser turrets, if thats the case, she outguns the Midway, B/c the midway has 32 laser turrets (I think). Just another point.
     
  15. Penguin

    Penguin Spaceman

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    Napoleon: "The diffence between tolwyn and hitler is that hitler based his idea of inferiority on prejudice and hate whereas Tolwyn based his on science and logic."
    If Tolwyn really did base his conception of inferiority on science then why did he want to wipe out the Border Worlders? Also Earthworm's point about Tolwyn wiping out most of Confed's population is correct. When the GenSelect device was employed against Telamon, it wiped out the sheer bulk of the population. Since the possibility that the majority of the colonists had some sort of genetic deficiency (e.g. haemophilia) is ridiculous, Tolwyn was setting extremely high standards, which if employed on a Confed wide basis would have killed an unacceptably massive proportion of the population. Basically speaking you'd be eliminating most of the genetic variation, which allows the human race to cope with change.

    The Victory was still in service because Confed needed every carrier they could get, even ones with the dubious nick of 'Tin Can Sally.'
    The Midway's major improvement over the Vesuvius & other carriers like it was that its hangar is completely self sealed. In other words a hostile pilot can't fly inside & fire off flashpacks, DFs or torps. Though the system can be stuffed via the destruction of the launch tubes it reduces the capship's vulnerability to outright destruction.
    The Midway has an unspecified number of ion cannons that aren't simulated in the WCP engine [WCP manual]. Besides Midway's & Vesuvius' aren't meant to get into slugging matches with other capships - that's what you've got destroyers & cruisers for.
     
  16. Earthworm

    Earthworm Spaceman

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    Napoleon, what Penguin said is correct... the Victory was only in service because Confed had precious few heavy carriers left, and they were to protect the most vital systems. The Victory is VERY old, remember than Eisen was on her maiden voyage as a young Lt.

    No, Tolwyn didn't hate the so called inferior people, he hated what he had to do, but he deemed it neccessary for the human race to survive. Hitler wanted to rule the world, or at least a large part of it, and anyone that wasn't of German blood was inferior in his eyes, and would only delay his plans. So their motivation was very simillar.

    As for Vesuvius VS Midway. Both ships have various advantages over each other. The Vesuvius for one, can carry much more fighters and it appear that it's faster and more agile, the Midway however, is most likelly cheaper (being the reason why Confed built it in the first place instead of several smaller carriers that would serve the same purpose). On the other hand, the Midway has more secured flight deck than the war-era carriers, and like Penguin said, the Midway has a number of Ion cannons that are not in the game, so it would have more fire power (but again, not like a carrier is suposed to fight other ships).
     
  17. Griffin

    Griffin Spaceman

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    He wanted to keep Confed in war to maintain and improve his forces' skills and to have someone to test his new toys on. Since the Border Worlds were the only significant military force separate to the Confederation, they were the obvious choice, so he tried to convince the Assembly they were hostile. It didn't matter whether they were "inferiors" or not - they were just someone to fight.
     
  18. Penguin

    Penguin Spaceman

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    Griffin: But the Border Worlders don't have the military might to challenge the Confederation. One does not improve one's skills by beating up those weaker than you.
     
  19. Napoleon

    Napoleon Spaceman

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    YEs penguin you do, If you can keep the fight going for long enough then you can have the chance to give your younger pilots combat experience also you get to test new weapons and get more funding for special projects and the military at large. But the Border Worlds weren't the only people around to beat up on. Why not attack the mantu, they are still around aren't they?
     
  20. Quarto

    Quarto Unknown Enemy

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    Well, no. You see, that's the biggest problem with the Mantu - they're NOT around :). They're a race that lives quite a long way away from Confed.
     

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