Tolywn-Tyrant or Patriot?

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Originally posted by Iceberg
First, ships in space don't rust. There's no oxygen in space to rust a spaceship the way an oceanic warship would rust.
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Actually, wouldn't those components within the ship's
internal atmosphere rust, since they are exposed
to the same air the crew breathes?

And aren't their other forms of entropy that can
strike a spaceship? Mir, for example...

Respectfully,

Brian P.
 
I think Tolwyn was alot like Hitler, he had a good idea, but went at it the wrong way. Instead of focusing on all humanity's needs, he focused on only those with certian genetic traits. Much like Hitlers "Final Solution" with the prison camps, he terminated millions of people just because they had certian genetic faults. His idea of keeping humankind strong and vigilant, but just went at it all wrong. He was correct in his statement, "Who will protect us when the next race tries to dominate us. Who will know when or where that threat will come from, we must be prepared!" And low and behold, here come the bugs. Confed defeated the bugs, but who can say they wont come back with a vengence.

RFBurns

"Mankind was at his senate when fighting the Kilrathi, now we cast about uncertian." [G. Tolwyn, WCIV]
 
Hitler with good ideas? Never heard that one before.

Tolwyn was always painted as "the man who got things done". So was Blair, but Blair actually cared about the people involved, whereas Tolwyn just kept throwing technology and personnel at the problem until it got solved. Telamon was a FUBAR as far as Tolwyn's approval ratings were concerned, but everyone seems to have forgotten the murder of the people on board the T.C.S Armadeus (the UNARMED med-transport with civvie refugees)which was Flash Packed by Seether.

"Confed would have had a considerable fleet of Vesuvius-class megacarriers by the time the Bugs arrived." Maybe so, but did you see how easily the Bugs nuked the St. Helen's carrier group? And that was a Vesuvius-class carrier. The Midway/Cerberus system is considerably better than the Victory/Lexington/Vesuvius system, whereby you need to take the bridge and engines out instead of just shooting them. I can only assume from this that weapon technology surpassed the Phase Shield technology in Wing Commander 2, and it's taken this long to get them up to scratch again.

Confed did not defeat the Bugs, we merely pushed them back. God help us if they ever get their whole fleet through. Remember the Battle Of Earth? That was only a large strike fleet, not the whole Kilrathi military!

I think that Tolwyn was born and bred for war. With the exception of the Behemoth debacle, it has been made clear that he will do anything to get the job done (Remember Wing Commander 2, when he ordered the Transit Cannon to fire at the Kamekh, even though there was a significant chance that the reactor would explode?). When the Treaty was signed, Tolwyn probably had a mop-up job of the remaining Imperialists in mind.

He wasn't ready for this. He should have been sidestepped into Tactical.
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
He shot himself, didn't he?
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Yes, he shot himself after his new wife took poison. Then he had his SS goons burn his and his wife's body. Tolwyn hung himself in his cell before execution.

The good idea I refered to was simply this, like any country in this world, the leaders try to preserve their ways of life for their people. Hitler took it too far tho, much like Tolwyn did. Hitler cast out many people simply cause of race. Tolwyn cast out many people because of genetic faults. Hitler wanted to make his country strong, as any country wants the same. Tolwyn wanted to create a master race according to genetic traits. Its basically the same thing between the two. All people want the best for them and their country. But when you start saying this group or that group has no right to live simply cause you believe you are superior, youre the one that needs exterminating. Hitler chickened out and shot himself, Tolwyn chickened out and hung himself. Both were unable to face their fates, so they took the easy way out.

RFBurns

Playing God is like playing with fire, you eventually get burned.
 
Originally posted by Master_Anarchist
iceberg - the lesson to be learned is mentioned in wc4.

the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
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Actually, the lesson I was referring to was the fact that Paladin succeeded where Tolwyn failed.

Paladin never forgot that he was working for and against people, unlike Tolwyn, and it was Paladin's compassion and leadership that pulled the Confederation away from the brink of a disastrous war with the Union of Border Worlds, which would have devastated both and left humanity vulnerable to attack by the Kilrathi and other enemies.

The price of freedom is indeed eternal vigilance. Not just against external enemies, but also against those who would prey on the weak and the helpless.
 
Originally posted by Chameleon102
Hitler with good ideas? Never heard that one before.

Tolwyn was always painted as "the man who got things done". So was Blair, but Blair actually cared about the people involved, whereas Tolwyn just kept throwing technology and personnel at the problem until it got solved. Telamon was a FUBAR as far as Tolwyn's approval ratings were concerned, but everyone seems to have forgotten the murder of the people on board the T.C.S Armadeus (the UNARMED med-transport with civvie refugees)which was Flash Packed by Seether.

"Confed would have had a considerable fleet of Vesuvius-class megacarriers by the time the Bugs arrived." Maybe so, but did you see how easily the Bugs nuked the St. Helen's carrier group? And that was a Vesuvius-class carrier. The Midway/Cerberus system is considerably better than the Victory/Lexington/Vesuvius system, whereby you need to take the bridge and engines out instead of just shooting them. I can only assume from this that weapon technology surpassed the Phase Shield technology in Wing Commander 2, and it's taken this long to get them up to scratch again.

Confed did not defeat the Bugs, we merely pushed them back. God help us if they ever get their whole fleet through. Remember the Battle Of Earth? That was only a large strike fleet, not the whole Kilrathi military!

I think that Tolwyn was born and bred for war. With the exception of the Behemoth debacle, it has been made clear that he will do anything to get the job done (Remember Wing Commander 2, when he ordered the Transit Cannon to fire at the Kamekh, even though there was a significant chance that the reactor would explode?). When the Treaty was signed, Tolwyn probably had a mop-up job of the remaining Imperialists in mind.

He wasn't ready for this. He should have been sidestepped into Tactical.
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Tolwyn was a good choice for the head of the Strategic Readiness Agency, and would have continued to be so, had he not gone insane. The problem arose when he decided to manufacture an enemy for Confed to attack, and got worse when his paper tiger decided to get a Heart. And if Blair is the Heart of the Tiger, I suppose that makes Will Eisen the Mind of the Tiger, eh? ;)
 
As I understand, the Soviets actually took Hitler alive and just told the Americans that he was dead, then tortured him for a few years before he kacked it...
 
No, Hittler was dead (shoot himself in the head and his body was burned by SS), the Sovites knew that (by the teeth records) , but Stalin keep saying that he was alive (and had escape with the swiss help) for political reasons.
 
Ok, call me crazy but Tolwny acted out of what he thought was right. Telamon was a test (albeit a grusome one) and the weapon that was used to conduct it, god help me for saying this, could be used effictivly against other races. Now before you shoot this idea down, i m not saying that we should go into the heart of Border world space (lets assume that Confed still has some issues against them) and drop it against all of their colonies. The power to have a weapon that can "select" its targets can be a deadly, unorthadox, yet effective weapon. Tolwyn knew this, so in his opion he thought that the test a Telamon was neccisary. Personally I don't think so. Now, count how many times Towlyn and his whole family line saved or helped tremondusly to the Confederation, Earth, itself. I just think personnaly that people were way to hard on him. No doubt that he should have served some hard time for Telamon, but if you listin closely to the end of WC4 it states that Towlyn was going to be executed. Everyone knows that the poor chap took his own life instead, but do you think they should have executed him for treason when he was only trying to help earth? In my opinon no.
 
Eh? It doesn't matter if he did those things to ultimatly help the Confederation... Neither do his past actions give him the right to kill civilians and not get executed.
 
Serving the confederation for your whole life with devotion and making one mistake(albeit a GIGANTIC one) to me does not warrent his execution. Just discharged or something of the sort, and some hard time.
 
A fireman who saves someone from a burning building doesn't have the right to pick up a shoot gun and nail some sucker on the street...
 
I must say that Tolwyn was perfectly right that we must prepare for the next race and from my point of view the GenSelect was not to be used on humans as much as to be used against whatever was the next alien threat, be it the Seltek, the Kilrathi again, the Mantu, or the Bugs which were alluded to in THotH novel, the Kilrathi emperor knew that the bugs were comming so perhaps tolwyn knew as well. If tolwyn had been able to continue as SRA head without going overboard there would have been a significant new fleet consiting of Vesuvius Class Supercarriers, with Bearcat and Dragon fighters and the new transports/other carriers used by the BL. The problem was that he choose to test the bioweapon on people. I am not saying having the Bioweapon would be bad, because every single county in the world has bioweapons stored somewhere. By using the Temblar Bomb the confederation already proved that it was not adverse to using a weapon of mass destruction as such the Genselect to be used as a weapon against another country would not be against the apparent morals of the Confederation Government.
 
A fireman who saves someone from a burning building doesn't have the right to pick up a shoot gun and nail some sucker on the street.
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Or does it!?!?!

Seriously though, I don't fell anything is grounds for execution. I won't go into my reasoning as that can only lead to an argument. It's one of those subjects you never seem to be able to convince other people about.

TC
 
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