Tolywn-Tyrant or Patriot?

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Ok here is the deal. Was Tolwyn a tyrant or Patriot? Personally i think that he was a patriot. Although the killing of innocent civilians with Bio weapons was a bad move i think that the basic idea behind the Black Lance was sound. Humanity should be ready for war in case another hostile race tries to do something. Remember the Kilrathi war? Earth was caught with its pants down and it cost us big time. Also the sterling years of service that he put forth for Earth should be considered.
Tolwyn gone mad. Simply as that. Gone mad and start killing innocent people in a nazy way. Theres nothing patriot about that. The only thing he cared about was: "The strong shall survive"....

[Edited by KillerWave on 02-13-2001 at 21:17]
I think that Tolwyn's idea was good, but the way he did it was way off, especially 'cause he was an Admiral who dedicated his life to the service and wanted to support it. He should have used the power that he had in the Government to do something. We saw how good a speaker he was in the game. After all, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". That was the point of the game: "The Price of Freedom" It was stupid to make a conflict. If you have seen the movie "Canadian Bacon", it was kind of the same thing where they wanted to start a war with Canada just for the President's popularity. That's not the best reference, but it's all I can think of now. So basically, good idea, horrible execution.
Tolwyn was a misguided visionary. He's right: the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. He just seemed to have thought that the more vigilance, the more freedom, and along the way forgot the freedom part. It's good that he failed, but there has to be a certain respect, you know?

He meant well for about ten minutes, anyway.
Originally posted by papachulo10
Remember the Kilrathi war? Earth was caught with its pants down and it cost us big time.
But that wasn't because the military wasn't ready, like it was after the war... Confed's fleet was larger before the attack at McAuliffe, and if they had that kind of preparation instead of the economical problems after the war, Tolwyn wouldn't have a single excuse for doing what he did (not that he had any valid excuses anyway).

Tolwyn was a tyrant, and I don't know how you can call killing civilians a "bad" move. Yes, Tolwyn was doing those things because he wanted to preserve Confed, but that doesn't make it right, and he certainly can't be called a patriot...
My view of Tolwyn is a little unsure... It really all depends on what would have happened if the False Colours trilogy has been completed.

Tolwyn was a brilliant military leader and his actions alway reflected his point of view, of what is good for the confederation. In recognizing the need to prepare Confed for another war he was 100% correct. In creating genetically engineered soldiers to be more efficient defenders of the confederation he was 100% correct. In realizing that history taught that the strong race/species will survive and triumph over the weak race/species he was 100% correct. In using a bio weapon to elliminate the weak from his/our race to make the race stronger, the intentions and idea behind it is perfectly logical and corresponds to reason and what has been taught by darwin. His problem was that he failed to consider the fact that just because an action is logical and in the long run will probably benefit humanity, it is not necessarily moral and as such by using the GenSelect bio weapon he was immoral, but not illogical and "crazy" he just saw what he thought was a solution that on paper is logical. If one is breeding race horses to be fast with good endurance, does one take the fastest horse and the horse with the best endurance and breed them together to get the best of both worlds? Yes. Does one take the slowest horse with the worst endurance and allow it to interbreed with the other horses? No. So from Tolwyn's point of view, he was just breeding better humans who would be smarter, stronger, and potentially better than the current humans, and it would have worked. What tolwyn did not do is consider humans different from animals, or consider humans special. We can say that humans are different than other animals and thus cannot be bred the way that tolwyn planned, but that is a call that each person must make for themselves. If he did wish to make a better race what he should have done is rather than kill the people he considers "undesirable", instead he should have allowed them to go about their own lives, but encourage his "desirables" to breed with each other thus increasing the intelligence/strenght of those individuals. Was he wrong in his literal Genocide of those he considered "undesirable"? I say yes. Was he wrong in trying to create a stronger humaninty? I say no. Was he a patriot? Yes he was. Was he crazy? No, he just thought differently than the mainstream that does not make him mentally ill. Should he be considered an overall villan or hero? I say hero because all of his intentions were good.

One thing that we musn't do is say that what he did even remotely resemballs what the Nazi's did to the Jews, or what the Turks did to the Armenians. We should not make this comparison because there were too separate things here. The Nazi's thought without any scientific evidence or logical reasoning that the Jews were inferior to them and thus should die. The Turks thought that becuase the Armenians were devout christians, and were different that they were inferior and dersereved to die. Tolwyn, used science and logic to take the people who were inferior mentally physically and who had genetic diseases and attempted to weed them out. The difference is that he did not base his genocide on a specific ethnicity or socio-economic group, no he based his genocide on people who were in someway or another genetically inferior to others. This is a qualitative difference in that while all three cases would have/do have the same moral problems, tolwyn's case would have had a positive (for the race) end result, while the other 2 did not have any net positive result for the human race as a whole.

If anybody disagrees with me fine, but just as a warning, I will NOT be treated as if I was a Nazi or called derogatory names simple becuase I took the logical, while unemotional, path in my explanation as to why Tolwyn was a patriot, but committed a seriously egredious act against the people he wouldhave/did kill. He did not committ a crime against humanity however, for in a crime against humanity, a person or group must cause a net lose to the race as a whole. What he did commit was a crime against SOCIETY and against popular moral beliefs
There's a few problems with your theory. First of all it is illogical becasue there are no single genes that simply make one smarter or more creative. Stephan Hawkings was told in 1975 that he would die from ALS within a year. 26 years later he is still alive and he is one of the most brilliant men on the planet. There is no scientific way to make a better human because whose idea is better? Tolwyn's would have killed someone like Hawkings beause he isn't genetically fit. Who determines that? Tolwyn did the exact thing Hitler did. He determined who would live or die based on nothing more that their genetics. Science can't predict Beethoven or Einstien or a Carl Lewis. He was insane because he would have sacrificed billions of life in the "HOPE" that his idea would have worked. No proof that it would have and mankind's savior might have been a child that he struck down. The BL was blantently evil, and far worse than anything the Kilrathi ever were. Because they were our own.
Calling him a patriot before WC4 is a good idea, not during. I mean, killing civilians with selective bio-bombs, instigating war... what he really wanted was to sit in his grand chair on the Vesuvius and do war with the Border Worlds. Didn't you see how happy he was in the losing endgame cutscene, battling?
Theres nothing logical about Tolwyn creating the GenSelect Bio-Weapon, remmember it killed 90% of the people in Telamon Colony, this is not for the best of the confederation, what matters if you have only the best, but not enough to protect the confederation. If he would use the bio-weapon in the entire confederation, it would have be reduced to about 10% of its military personnel. Tolwyn ideas where nazi like. The nazi's thought who where genetically "inferior" , where unworthy. Thats exactly what Tolwyn's idea is about. Quoting Blair: 'With cattle you worry about stock, not with people as far as i know.'
Wait, genes don't determine intelligence because Hawking has ALS? Based on the now-defunct theory that there's only one codon and that either activates "REALLY SMART" or "HAS ALS"?

Quit being stupid, stupid.
I understand reading is hard for you LOAF. I said there is not a single gene that determines intelligence. I.E. More than one gene determines it. I'll try to stick to monosyllabic words so they won't hurt your head.
I'm sorry, my good Doctor, but you are the one who must work on your reading. LOAF was just pointing out that your logic is faulty. The whole point is that the BL would probably notice these genes that help determine possible intellegence. Your reasoning attempted to link the disorder with intellegence in an attempt to demonstrate something that probably isn't true. We know the BL screened by gene, we don't know what genes it was that were used in this process.

TC, your pep squad antics are so adorable. And I never said that intelligence was linked to ALS. But if the BL are wipeing out the genetically unfit, people with ALS would fall under that catogory.
You really think they are so narrow minded to not think they require smart people? I'm rather sure that's factored into their plans. Once you can read the genes making a program for nanobots that will weigh different traits would really not be very hard.

(And if you think these are 'pep squad antics' please pay more attention. I've actually argued against many people (LOAF included, on AGWC) about my views on the BL.

TC He does have a point, many of inteligent people would be killed because they were genetical unfit, and I dont belive that genes have anything with genius.
Tolwyn was wrong in doing what he did, if he would get his way mankind would lose what defines being "human", we would became like the kilrathi (like Blair says "why do we have to be like the kilrathi, adiced to war.."), we would lose your soul.
And for what? the bugs? well the Midway against all odds manage to do just fine with out "genetical supermans" in the crew, there is no garanty that Tolwyn ideas would make things easier.

[Edited by Dragon on 02-14-2001 at 00:20]
If you noticed the whole point of my post is that there is no way by looking at a persons genes how creative or truly intelligent a person is. Enviroment is by far the larger determiner on that. A person might be a tremendous strategist but they might never discover how great they are at it. A persons capabilities are determined by many things and anyone who wipes out genetically "unfit" people on that basis alone will probably wipe out many brilliant people in the process.
Silly Vondoom, contradicting himself!

I said there is not a single gene that determines intelligence. I.E. More than one gene determines it.

Hmm... looks like you said there are genes that determine intellegence, or am I misremembering?
I said truly intelligent TC. A person with all the genes for intelligence but never goes to school will never achive thier potential. And you have problems with reading posts like LOAF does. I said there was not a SINGLE gene that determines intelligence. There are several that help determine it. As does one's enviroment.
Vondoom, LOAF is the Administrator of this and he had gone by eye surgery recenty (If I am not wrong).
So be careful
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