Tolywn-Tyrant or Patriot?
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Hitler was a brilliant military leader and his actions alway reflected his point of view, of what is good for Germany. In recognizing the need to prepare Germany for another war he was 100% correct. In creating a country of genetically superior soldiers to be more efficient defenders of Germany he was 100% correct. In realizing that history taught that the strong species will survive and triumph over the weak species he was 100% correct. In using force to elliminate the weak from his country to make the race stronger, the intentions and idea behind it is perfectly logical and corresponds to reason and what has been taught by darwin. His problem was that he failed to consider the fact that just because an action is logical and in the long run will probably benefit humanity, it is not necessarily moral and as such by selectivly killing, but not illogical and "crazy" he just saw what he thought was a solution that on paper is logical.
By blaming the jewish sub-humans for the poverty throughout germany he helped to change his country bringing it from a poor batered country, to a country that's might almost let him achieve global domination and through domination, unity, harmony among men. Was he wrong in trying to create a stronger humaninty? I say no. Was he a patriot? Yes he was. Was he crazy? No, he just thought differently than the mainstream that does not make him mentally ill. Should he be considered an overall villan or hero? I say hero because all of his intentions were good. What bases did he have to show the Jewish were truly weak, just look at how many of them he killed. Did it truly even matter if they were lesser? No. By finding a minority that could be used as a scapegoat, he gave his soldiers a cause, and through conflict they became stronger, so even if the Jewish hadn't been weak he would have been creating better soldiers. Also it should probably be noted, that the Jewish having been of different decent would have been likely to have different genetic characteristics, which had yet to spread out, which could have been deemed inferior. I think there was supposed to be something about the forehead of the jewish but I'm not positive. There is no garantee that tolwyn's case would have had a positive end result, any more then Hitler's would have, as the perfect genetic code for the superior soldier is a subjective concept. Ex; you might give your superior soldier 20/20 vision so he could see to the best of human ability. I might give him less then that so he would be able to see well enough to make out an enemy from an ally , but would be less likly to run into an emotional problem from seeing the fear in his enemies' eye.
Yes Hitler truly was the king of kings! Just incase you haven't guessed by now , I considered Tolwyn to be a tyrant.
By blaming the jewish sub-humans for the poverty throughout germany he helped to change his country bringing it from a poor batered country, to a country that's might almost let him achieve global domination and through domination, unity, harmony among men. Was he wrong in trying to create a stronger humaninty? I say no. Was he a patriot? Yes he was. Was he crazy? No, he just thought differently than the mainstream that does not make him mentally ill. Should he be considered an overall villan or hero? I say hero because all of his intentions were good. What bases did he have to show the Jewish were truly weak, just look at how many of them he killed. Did it truly even matter if they were lesser? No. By finding a minority that could be used as a scapegoat, he gave his soldiers a cause, and through conflict they became stronger, so even if the Jewish hadn't been weak he would have been creating better soldiers. Also it should probably be noted, that the Jewish having been of different decent would have been likely to have different genetic characteristics, which had yet to spread out, which could have been deemed inferior. I think there was supposed to be something about the forehead of the jewish but I'm not positive. There is no garantee that tolwyn's case would have had a positive end result, any more then Hitler's would have, as the perfect genetic code for the superior soldier is a subjective concept. Ex; you might give your superior soldier 20/20 vision so he could see to the best of human ability. I might give him less then that so he would be able to see well enough to make out an enemy from an ally , but would be less likly to run into an emotional problem from seeing the fear in his enemies' eye.
Yes Hitler truly was the king of kings! Just incase you haven't guessed by now , I considered Tolwyn to be a tyrant.
Well, Tolwyn was right.
First since the Kilrathi have lost the War, they prove thenselfs inferior, so we kill all the kilrathi, and all the other races as well since they needed ConFed help to suvive.
We sould all drink that stuff and see if it would work, and if it did not we sould shoot yourselfs in the head.
After that robots would make behemonts ships and destroy all planets colonizied by mankind.
Then the Bugs would find nothing and being really piss off, they start to kill thenselfs.
After that the universe will inplode for having inferior species in it.
First since the Kilrathi have lost the War, they prove thenselfs inferior, so we kill all the kilrathi, and all the other races as well since they needed ConFed help to suvive.
We sould all drink that stuff and see if it would work, and if it did not we sould shoot yourselfs in the head.
After that robots would make behemonts ships and destroy all planets colonizied by mankind.
Then the Bugs would find nothing and being really piss off, they start to kill thenselfs.
After that the universe will inplode for having inferior species in it.
Personally, I feel that people read to much into the use of the gen-select device. It is not Tolwyn's weapon, it is, like the Dragon and the Flash-pak, a Confed R&D project. To me, the gen-select weapon is simply another weapon of mass destruction. If anything, it is far superior to the bio-weapons we know the Kilrathi, and presumably Confed, had been using throughout the war. It is a bio-weapon that can be programmed to attack specific targets, e.g. the Kilrathi, while leaving other targets untouched, e.g. Humans, native animals. Simply program it to attack the the Kilrathi have and we don't and it is a perfect weapon. It can be used freely on the battlefield without fear of affecting your own men, pump it through the ventilation systems of your ships as a protection against marine boarding parties (or to eliminate any pesky Pilgrims you might have on board ... oops, I've said too much).
Why it used on Telamon? Possibly quite simply because it is more readily available. By readily, I mean that Tolwyn can get his hands on it for use in a secret project. He can't easily walk into a Confed supply depot and ask say "can I have ten tonnes of bio-weapon please" without people asking awkward questions. On the other hand, an order from a high ranking officer to transfer some of Secret Project A from Top Secret Location 1 to Top Secret Location 2 would probably not attract questions at all (because people in top-secret R&D business soon learn that questioning orders leads to a brief appointment with strange people who do stuff like applying high voltages to peoples genitals while asking questions like "why were you asking questions about our top secret project").
To me, Tolwyn was always a true patriot and a strong leader. He did whatever was necessary, even if that involved the deaths of his own men. The ends justify the means.
What Tolwyn is facing at the beginning of WC4 is his, and probably a lot of other military officers, worst nightmare. Confed is in the middle of a post-war recession and, with no obvious enemies, the bean-counters in the goverment are severely cutting back military expenditure. The mighty Confed 'fleet' which defeated the Kilrathi is really just a collection of aging, battered vessels stretched across too many systems. The Versuvius class vessels designed to replace the older ones (like the Victory) are deemed too expensive. Soon the once-proud fleet will be a pile of rust and ANY enemy will have Confed at its mercy.
And there ARE enemies out there. The Kilrathi didn't just pack up and leave. While losses in the Kilrah system may have been costly, the fleet which had pushed Confed forces back nearly to Earth itself didn't just evaporate. Melek's decision to surrender is probably none too popular in certain corners of the empire. The Kilrathi may be more interested in internal squabbles then Confed, but should they unify under someone other then Melek ...
And the Border Worlds were always an uneasy ally in the Kilrathi War. I strongly doubt that the tensions growing between Confed and the Border Worlds were the work of Tolwyn or the Black Lance. All they did was blow on the embers.
For Tolwyn, the future is bleak. He has watched as the human race clawed its way back from the brink of oblivion (and they were soooo close to that), only to see them throwing it all away again. I imagine that he tried going through the 'proper' procedures. However some people would probably see it only as an effort of a faded memory trying to resurect past glory (Tolwyn's Behemoth failed, Paladins Temblar succeeded). Nobody is willing to listen. In desperation, he concocts a plan. Stir up some trouble with a known 'enemy', prove yourself right, and hope they listen. Some innocent people may die, but that cannot be helped. The ends justifies the means, and when the 'end' is the survival of the human race, this justifies some pretty strong 'means'.
Why pick on the Border Worlds? Because the Kilrathi are still very dangerous, even if most people don't realize this. If a conflict arises with the Kilrathi, Melek will lose what little support he does have and the entire Kilrathi war will start all over again.
Why does Tolwyn choose Blair? Why send him to Eisen's Lexington? Why Eisen for that matter? Because he needs Blair. Because people will listen to Blair, the hero of Kilrah and heart of the Tiger. Blair is part of the Plan. I would even go so far as to suggest that Tolwyn never even intends a full scale war with the Border Worlds. He doesn't need to. All he needs is for people to sit up and take notice, that there IS still a threat out there. So all he has to do stir up a bit of trouble, get Blair to report back to the council that yes, there is a problem. Once a threat is identified, they can divert some funds back into the military. Said trouble can be put down with a minimum of fuss, particularly with Blair there as a negotiator, then Blair can drift back into retirement and Tolwyn can say "I told you so, perhaps you'll listen to me in the future" and everybody will be happy. Unfortunately, things get a bit out of hand. Eisen gets wind that things are not as they seem and defects. Blair follows suit and everything goes downhill from there.
Why does Blair stick with the military? Because he knows that Tolwyn (and everybody else in the damn game
) was right - the price of freedom IS eternal vigilence. Blair knows that people will listen to him, when they didn't listen to Tolwyn. The Midway is Blairs compromise. It's not an all-out war-beast like the Versuvius, but it's better then the nothing they might have got without Tolwyn.
Funny really, that the person who gets what they wanted in the end is Tolwyn. The ends justify the means, even if the means is your own life.
Perhaps the quote that sums it up best comes from Blair at the end of WC4 : "What price freedom?"
Tolwyn's response : "Whatever it takes!"
Why it used on Telamon? Possibly quite simply because it is more readily available. By readily, I mean that Tolwyn can get his hands on it for use in a secret project. He can't easily walk into a Confed supply depot and ask say "can I have ten tonnes of bio-weapon please" without people asking awkward questions. On the other hand, an order from a high ranking officer to transfer some of Secret Project A from Top Secret Location 1 to Top Secret Location 2 would probably not attract questions at all (because people in top-secret R&D business soon learn that questioning orders leads to a brief appointment with strange people who do stuff like applying high voltages to peoples genitals while asking questions like "why were you asking questions about our top secret project").
To me, Tolwyn was always a true patriot and a strong leader. He did whatever was necessary, even if that involved the deaths of his own men. The ends justify the means.
What Tolwyn is facing at the beginning of WC4 is his, and probably a lot of other military officers, worst nightmare. Confed is in the middle of a post-war recession and, with no obvious enemies, the bean-counters in the goverment are severely cutting back military expenditure. The mighty Confed 'fleet' which defeated the Kilrathi is really just a collection of aging, battered vessels stretched across too many systems. The Versuvius class vessels designed to replace the older ones (like the Victory) are deemed too expensive. Soon the once-proud fleet will be a pile of rust and ANY enemy will have Confed at its mercy.
And there ARE enemies out there. The Kilrathi didn't just pack up and leave. While losses in the Kilrah system may have been costly, the fleet which had pushed Confed forces back nearly to Earth itself didn't just evaporate. Melek's decision to surrender is probably none too popular in certain corners of the empire. The Kilrathi may be more interested in internal squabbles then Confed, but should they unify under someone other then Melek ...
And the Border Worlds were always an uneasy ally in the Kilrathi War. I strongly doubt that the tensions growing between Confed and the Border Worlds were the work of Tolwyn or the Black Lance. All they did was blow on the embers.
For Tolwyn, the future is bleak. He has watched as the human race clawed its way back from the brink of oblivion (and they were soooo close to that), only to see them throwing it all away again. I imagine that he tried going through the 'proper' procedures. However some people would probably see it only as an effort of a faded memory trying to resurect past glory (Tolwyn's Behemoth failed, Paladins Temblar succeeded). Nobody is willing to listen. In desperation, he concocts a plan. Stir up some trouble with a known 'enemy', prove yourself right, and hope they listen. Some innocent people may die, but that cannot be helped. The ends justifies the means, and when the 'end' is the survival of the human race, this justifies some pretty strong 'means'.
Why pick on the Border Worlds? Because the Kilrathi are still very dangerous, even if most people don't realize this. If a conflict arises with the Kilrathi, Melek will lose what little support he does have and the entire Kilrathi war will start all over again.
Why does Tolwyn choose Blair? Why send him to Eisen's Lexington? Why Eisen for that matter? Because he needs Blair. Because people will listen to Blair, the hero of Kilrah and heart of the Tiger. Blair is part of the Plan. I would even go so far as to suggest that Tolwyn never even intends a full scale war with the Border Worlds. He doesn't need to. All he needs is for people to sit up and take notice, that there IS still a threat out there. So all he has to do stir up a bit of trouble, get Blair to report back to the council that yes, there is a problem. Once a threat is identified, they can divert some funds back into the military. Said trouble can be put down with a minimum of fuss, particularly with Blair there as a negotiator, then Blair can drift back into retirement and Tolwyn can say "I told you so, perhaps you'll listen to me in the future" and everybody will be happy. Unfortunately, things get a bit out of hand. Eisen gets wind that things are not as they seem and defects. Blair follows suit and everything goes downhill from there.
Why does Blair stick with the military? Because he knows that Tolwyn (and everybody else in the damn game
) was right - the price of freedom IS eternal vigilence. Blair knows that people will listen to him, when they didn't listen to Tolwyn. The Midway is Blairs compromise. It's not an all-out war-beast like the Versuvius, but it's better then the nothing they might have got without Tolwyn.Funny really, that the person who gets what they wanted in the end is Tolwyn. The ends justify the means, even if the means is your own life.
Perhaps the quote that sums it up best comes from Blair at the end of WC4 : "What price freedom?"
Tolwyn's response : "Whatever it takes!"
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
LOAF, you're Admin. You're supposed to set a good example, not provoke stupid arguments.
Vondoom, LOAF can't actually force you to respond to provocation. So if he insults you, you do not have to respond with a counter-insult.
TC, I believe what Vondoom means is that intelligent people will frequently die not because they were unrecognised, but simply because one of their other genes happened to be defective. Since the little gen-select thingies would be all over the place, even if the BL wanted to save some flawed genius from death, they'd be completely powerless.
Vondoom, LOAF can't actually force you to respond to provocation. So if he insults you, you do not have to respond with a counter-insult.
TC, I believe what Vondoom means is that intelligent people will frequently die not because they were unrecognised, but simply because one of their other genes happened to be defective. Since the little gen-select thingies would be all over the place, even if the BL wanted to save some flawed genius from death, they'd be completely powerless.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
But he's the one who wants to use them.
No, because you can't program it to distinguish between civilians and soldiers. Furthermore, Tolwyn wants to use it on the population of the Confederation - on every single planet inhabited by humans, presumably. Even if we were to assume that it's all right to kill enemy civilians... since when is the Confederation an enemy of the Confederation?
I don't get it... are you implying that it was all right to use bio-weapons on Telamon just because this wouldn't give rise to awkward questions at a Confed supply depot?
The end does indeed justify some means... but only if it's the right end. Tolwyn's goal was to destroy humanity and replace it with a bunch of freaks, all in the name of saving humanity. That 'end' justifies pretty much any 'means'... but is the 'end' justified? Do we really want to destroy humanity? I think it might be worth keeping, just in case we need it later...
YES! Those stupid bean-counters! Why must they always harp on about how we need the money to rebuild the shattered economy? Couldn't they understand that the Navy is Tolwyn's life? Why, oh why didn't they understand that the Navy comes ahead of the people it's supposed to protect? Why don't they understand that the prospect of peace is a horrible, horrible thing?
And of course, the universe is just full of evil psychopaths out to destroy everything they come across... well, there is perhaps a strange logic in the fact that an evil psychopath was full of paranoid worries that the other evil psychopaths might be out to get him...
Well, yeah... and since Confed had always mistreated the Border Worlds, 'blowing on the embers' is perfectly acceptable...
More confusion... who is this known enemy you're referring to? Also, since when is 90% of the human race considered 'some innocent people'?
So... Admiral Tolwyn, wishes to protect humanity from its enemy. But unfortunately, the enemy is too dangerous... he can't protect humanity against the enemy... so instead, he creates another enemy, so he has someone to protect humanity from?
Well yeah, of course. After all, genocide on Telamon SURELY wouldn't lead to a full scale war, right?
Hmm... in that case, I guess it's all Blair and Eisen's fault. Tolwyn meant well, but they just wanted to destroy humanity.
I must say, I am always amazed by how people insist on defending Tolwyn. I mean, it's absolutely bloody incredible - somehow, people seem to think that Tolwyn's goals were different to Hitler's goals. But Hitler too, had scientists who proclaimed that the Jewish are inferior and need to be weeded out. The gen-select bio-weapon is simply an upgrade to Hitler's "final solution".
Master_Anarchist
Spaceman
i have but one thing to say
absolte power corrupts absolutely
absolte power corrupts absolutely
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Don't worry, Vondoom doesn't *have* to be careful, because he's just gotten himself banned. You can insult me in any way *but* that.
Master_Anarchist
Spaceman
any way but that hey.. lets see where to start...
does banned mean forever? because if it does he can just sign in a different name
hope the eye is going well m8
does banned mean forever? because if it does he can just sign in a different name
hope the eye is going well m8
Tolwyn might have had a good *idea,* but his execution was way the hell off. He stopped seeing the forest, because all the damn trees kept getting in the way.
Blair, in the "true winning" endgame, is doing more to ensure the future survival of humanity - by teaching its future defenders how to fight for their lives and the lives of everybody who depends on them - than Tolwyn ever could with his horrifying plan.
Blair, in the "true winning" endgame, is doing more to ensure the future survival of humanity - by teaching its future defenders how to fight for their lives and the lives of everybody who depends on them - than Tolwyn ever could with his horrifying plan.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I disagree, Tolwyn's execution was a direct result of his idea...
*RIMSHOT*
But I digress -- you're right, Tolwyn had a noble goal, but he performed it wrong. He was insane, but he *thought* he was a patriot... if it'd worked, maybe he would have been.
*RIMSHOT*
But I digress -- you're right, Tolwyn had a noble goal, but he performed it wrong. He was insane, but he *thought* he was a patriot... if it'd worked, maybe he would have been.
Master_Anarchist
Spaceman
oh well
its my quote then. i have fame forever.
its my quote then. i have fame forever.
Could he be both?
All he did was aimed at saving humanity from the
dangerous inhabitants of a dangerous galaxy. So in that
sense, he was a patriot.
But he was also a tyrant because his idea of 'saving'
humanity was to kill 9/10ths of it. And his idea
was to make a human race composed entirely of Seethers.
Tell me, who died and made him judge and jury, that he
could sentence 9/10ths of humanity to death? What right
had he to do this?
I also disagree that his idea was sound, for two reasons:
1. If Tolwyn had accomplished his goal in early human
history, we would have been deprived of Stephen Hawking
(wheelchair), FDR (wheel chair), Winston Churchill
(asthma), and a whole cast of others. We would not,
however, have been deprived of Nazi "supermen". A human
being's potential contribution to society cannot be
measured by his/her physical well-being.
2. Even in the realm that they were bred for (fighting),
the "inferior" crew of the Intrepid still gave
those "superior" BLs one hell of a beating. And in
the real world, the SS of WWII got their heads handed
to them by us untermenche, thank you very much.
In sum, Tolwyn's idea would have got a lot of human beings
killed for little or no military gain. And when the
bugs came along, we would have been too few to withstand
them.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
First, ships in space don't rust. There's no oxygen in space to rust a spaceship the way an oceanic warship would rust.
Second, there was a RECESSION going on. The Confederation needed the money much more badly in the civilian sector (which was suffering, especially in the Vega, Epsilon, Sol and Gemini sectors which had borne the brunt of the fighting during the later stages of the Kilrathi War) than in the military.
There's a lesson in this somewhere.
Tolwyn's "means" would have killed humanity and saved a collection of animals. Hardly the end he was aiming for.
So basically, it's OK to be a bully if you're the Confederation? Because attacking the weak is the mark of a bully, not a warrior.
The military had enough money to concept and build two new heavy carriers that were twice as large on all dimensions as any wartime carrier (and thus eight times as massive), plus continue building regular sized carriers to replace the ones lost in the war and the ones mothballed and scrapped after the war. Plus provide a very spacious and plush office for its most senior admiral. All in all, I doubt that things were in nearly as dire straits as Tolwyn portrayed.
Funny thing, Blair managed to save the human race, and you think that's "going downhill"? Tolwyn wanted to destroy humanity in favor of his own breed, and you think that's a favorable solution?
One of Tolwyn's own Black Lance soldiers testified against him at his trial. Even among the Black Lance, who were indoctrinated to think of Tolwyn as a combination of Father, God and Admiral, there was disaffection and dissent about the morality of the Plan.
Why does Blair stick with the military? Because he knows that Tolwyn (and everybody else in the damn game
They wouldn't have gotten nothing without Tolwyn. In fact, Tolwyn's plan may have cost the Confederation Navy considerable funding and most of its political popularity. If Tolwyn had played by the rules, the Confederation would have had a considerable force of new Vesuvius-class carriers by the time the Bugs showed up. Tolwyn didn't just want military spending to be *a* priority, he wanted it to be *the only* priority for the Confed government, while innocent people starved to death because their bombed and ruined planets couldn't support their own populations anymore, while food rotted in silos on the other side of the Confederation, on worlds that were completely untouched by the Kilrathi War. The War was over, and reconstruction of the civilian infrastructure should have been the order of the day. It's not as glamorous as building new warships, new fighters, new tanks and guns. But it WORKS.
"What does it profit a man if he gains the world, yet loses his soul?" - St. Augustine. Tolwyn's solution would have gained the galaxy for the species of animals known as homo sapiens. But it would have destroyed the soul of humanity.
[Edited by Iceberg on 02-14-2001 at 11:02]
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