Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Heck, even if they had the same name, how many characters in WC have been named 'Andropolos' already
? Three? I think it's three. Four, maybe.
? Three? I think it's three. Four, maybe.
The First Kilrathi?
- Thread starter Darth Thrakhath
- Start date
Synchronicity
May I suggest the simplest way around this problem is to assume that The Film That Dare Not Speak Its Name is fiction made in the Wing Commander Universe for the Wing Commander Universe and depicts a fictional adventure by the Tiger's Claw made for the civilian population. That way we can eliminate the Pilgrim problem completely (they were a fictional group invented by the film authors for their audience. In short, the film is the Wing Commander Universe equivalent of a Tom Clancy novel (please don't get me started on the deficiencies of Tom Clancy).
Unfortunately Action Stations doesn't hold up either. Its central these is the replacement of battleships in the fleet by carriers and the emergence of the carrier as the primary striking arm of the fleet. Unfortunately, that question had been settled 600 years earlier. That basic theme of Action Stations is incongruous; it just doesn't fit the way tactics involved have evolved. Now it is possible to argue that the Kilrathi are a battleship-orientated fleet. The way their fighters evolved between WC1 and WC3 indicates a battleship navy that was never quite happy with carriers and subjectively tried to get back to them. If we look at the Kilrathi fighters from a design point of view (I'm a professional defense analyst by the way) they do have a logical design path and philosophy - and that path is bigger, heavier and more corvette-like with each generation.
However, it is possible to view the Kilrathi War as one between the largely carrier-dominated TCSN and the largely battleship-dominated IKN. But the early Action Stations internal conflict between battleships and carriers just smells wrong.
The other novel that doesn't fit is False Colors - there the differences are quite marked - characters get killed off when they are still alive in WC4 .
I look the Kilrathi era as a series of rings. They are accurate only if they do not contradict the circles closer to the center. The center is the backbone of four games (WC1, WC2, WC3 and WC4) plus their sibling extensions. Those are the ones everything else has to agree with. The next circle out is Privateer/Righteous Fire and Wing Commander Academy (game). The next is and the novels Freedom Flight, End Run and Fleet Action plus the game novelizations. The next circle out is Wing Commander Armada and the remaining novels while the final outer circle is Privateer 2 and the film.
May I suggest the simplest way around this problem is to assume that The Film That Dare Not Speak Its Name is fiction made in the Wing Commander Universe for the Wing Commander Universe and depicts a fictional adventure by the Tiger's Claw made for the civilian population. That way we can eliminate the Pilgrim problem completely (they were a fictional group invented by the film authors for their audience. In short, the film is the Wing Commander Universe equivalent of a Tom Clancy novel (please don't get me started on the deficiencies of Tom Clancy).
Unfortunately Action Stations doesn't hold up either. Its central these is the replacement of battleships in the fleet by carriers and the emergence of the carrier as the primary striking arm of the fleet. Unfortunately, that question had been settled 600 years earlier. That basic theme of Action Stations is incongruous; it just doesn't fit the way tactics involved have evolved. Now it is possible to argue that the Kilrathi are a battleship-orientated fleet. The way their fighters evolved between WC1 and WC3 indicates a battleship navy that was never quite happy with carriers and subjectively tried to get back to them. If we look at the Kilrathi fighters from a design point of view (I'm a professional defense analyst by the way) they do have a logical design path and philosophy - and that path is bigger, heavier and more corvette-like with each generation.
However, it is possible to view the Kilrathi War as one between the largely carrier-dominated TCSN and the largely battleship-dominated IKN. But the early Action Stations internal conflict between battleships and carriers just smells wrong.
The other novel that doesn't fit is False Colors - there the differences are quite marked - characters get killed off when they are still alive in WC4 .
I look the Kilrathi era as a series of rings. They are accurate only if they do not contradict the circles closer to the center. The center is the backbone of four games (WC1, WC2, WC3 and WC4) plus their sibling extensions. Those are the ones everything else has to agree with. The next circle out is Privateer/Righteous Fire and Wing Commander Academy (game). The next is and the novels Freedom Flight, End Run and Fleet Action plus the game novelizations. The next circle out is Wing Commander Armada and the remaining novels while the final outer circle is Privateer 2 and the film.
Ghost
Emperor
Stop whining...
The movie was 10+ years from the first game.
If you want the same ships of wc1 with the SAME graphics, fine, i don´t want big low resolution pixels (ships) in a movie.
You don´t like the Pilgrim, fine, no one cares.
Go cry to your mom because the Pilgrim (he wanted to introduces that), Maniac was friend of Blair from the Academy according the movie and many other things, but in the WC1 game he introduces himself to Blair,Bossman is dead and the other things go and cry to your mom!
BTW, the same people who cries like a baby about this things, also cried in LOTR because,Liv Tyler carachter? or because Gimli or another carachter doesn´t look like they imaginated in their minds? or how David´s Lynch DUNE wasn´t like the book?
FYI: Never,Never a movie (script,ships,story,whatever) will be/is/was identical to the material in which the movie or whatever is based.
Stop complaining, we saw all your rants, cries, weird theories, there is nothing new under the sun.
The movie was 10+ years from the first game.
If you want the same ships of wc1 with the SAME graphics, fine, i don´t want big low resolution pixels (ships) in a movie.
You don´t like the Pilgrim, fine, no one cares.
Go cry to your mom because the Pilgrim (he wanted to introduces that), Maniac was friend of Blair from the Academy according the movie and many other things, but in the WC1 game he introduces himself to Blair,Bossman is dead and the other things go and cry to your mom!
BTW, the same people who cries like a baby about this things, also cried in LOTR because,Liv Tyler carachter? or because Gimli or another carachter doesn´t look like they imaginated in their minds? or how David´s Lynch DUNE wasn´t like the book?
FYI: Never,Never a movie (script,ships,story,whatever) will be/is/was identical to the material in which the movie or whatever is based.
Stop complaining, we saw all your rants, cries, weird theories, there is nothing new under the sun.
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
It's NOT the movie I have a problem with, it's people who say the movie fits perfectly into the WC universe.....
Synchronicity
Ghost; I really do not understand what you hope to achieve by failing to maintain reasonable standards of courtesy.
What is being attempted here is to establish a self-consistent universe for Wing Commander . It doesn't matter what technical standards are used in the games or in the film. What does matter is whether the information in them is consistent. If there are inconsistencies in the information (in my business they are called disconnects) we have several possibilities.
We can find a way by which the disconnects can be accommodated within a logical structure.
We can modify one or both bits of information so that they can both be accommodated within that structure
We can discard some of the information as wrong or unusable.
Privateer 2 is the classical case of using the third option. There is no way that the content of Privateer 2 can be reconciled with the rest of the Wing Commander Universe. The technologies, socio-political constructs, and basic environment are all radically different from everything else in the WC universe. We don't have any basis for assuming they do represent the same universe. So we discard it.
The Wing Commander Film isn't quite that bad but it has problems of its own. Its a dreadful film, it ranks up there with Plan Nine From Outer Space as being one of the worst movies of all time. Its technical details, and general approach are all seriously anomalous. The characterization is also out (in as much as those sad apologies for actors have any characterization). Since it is lacking in any redeeming values, I can't believe it is worth worrying about; the simplest approach to reconciling it with the rest of the WC universe is to write it off. That solves a lot of continuity problems.
It doesn't matter what the technical standards of the Wing Commander games are; the important point is that they form a cohesive and consistent framework to hang other things on. For example, we can trace a line of descent from the Dralthi of WC1 to the Drahkri of WC2 back to the Dralthi of WC3 and WC4. We can also trace a line of descent from the Jalthi to the Grikath and from the Gratha to the Jalkehi. If we can't fit something into that frame; if we have disconnects with it, then we have to explain how and why they came about. Thats what building a consistent universe is all about. Just saying the film isn;t the same as the book/game doesn't cut it. Its like saying somebody has a fever because they're running a temperature.
I'm sorry if you don't like the idea of discarding the Wing Commander film and the "Pilgrims" it introduces but unfortunately it is totally inconsistent with the games (which are the core of the Universe). If you prefer to stick with the film, then much of the game content must be dumped.
Either way, its not worth being rude to people over.
Ghost; I really do not understand what you hope to achieve by failing to maintain reasonable standards of courtesy.
What is being attempted here is to establish a self-consistent universe for Wing Commander . It doesn't matter what technical standards are used in the games or in the film. What does matter is whether the information in them is consistent. If there are inconsistencies in the information (in my business they are called disconnects) we have several possibilities.
We can find a way by which the disconnects can be accommodated within a logical structure.
We can modify one or both bits of information so that they can both be accommodated within that structure
We can discard some of the information as wrong or unusable.
Privateer 2 is the classical case of using the third option. There is no way that the content of Privateer 2 can be reconciled with the rest of the Wing Commander Universe. The technologies, socio-political constructs, and basic environment are all radically different from everything else in the WC universe. We don't have any basis for assuming they do represent the same universe. So we discard it.
The Wing Commander Film isn't quite that bad but it has problems of its own. Its a dreadful film, it ranks up there with Plan Nine From Outer Space as being one of the worst movies of all time. Its technical details, and general approach are all seriously anomalous. The characterization is also out (in as much as those sad apologies for actors have any characterization). Since it is lacking in any redeeming values, I can't believe it is worth worrying about; the simplest approach to reconciling it with the rest of the WC universe is to write it off. That solves a lot of continuity problems.
It doesn't matter what the technical standards of the Wing Commander games are; the important point is that they form a cohesive and consistent framework to hang other things on. For example, we can trace a line of descent from the Dralthi of WC1 to the Drahkri of WC2 back to the Dralthi of WC3 and WC4. We can also trace a line of descent from the Jalthi to the Grikath and from the Gratha to the Jalkehi. If we can't fit something into that frame; if we have disconnects with it, then we have to explain how and why they came about. Thats what building a consistent universe is all about. Just saying the film isn;t the same as the book/game doesn't cut it. Its like saying somebody has a fever because they're running a temperature.
I'm sorry if you don't like the idea of discarding the Wing Commander film and the "Pilgrims" it introduces but unfortunately it is totally inconsistent with the games (which are the core of the Universe). If you prefer to stick with the film, then much of the game content must be dumped.
Either way, its not worth being rude to people over.
WildWeasel
Spaceman
Re: Synchronicity
As I understand it, Privateer 2 takes place in a distant part of the Wing Commander universe and in the future (compared to the other games), as well. This being the case, there is no reason to reject it on the basis that it's different. It's expected to be different. Even if that weren't the case, the fact that something is different is no reason to discard it. Only in the case of a direct contradiction should something be discarded (and even then, we often find ways to explain those contradictions away).
As I understand it, Privateer 2 takes place in a distant part of the Wing Commander universe and in the future (compared to the other games), as well. This being the case, there is no reason to reject it on the basis that it's different. It's expected to be different. Even if that weren't the case, the fact that something is different is no reason to discard it. Only in the case of a direct contradiction should something be discarded (and even then, we often find ways to explain those contradictions away).
Pr-2
It would have to be a very wide seperation both in time and in space. to accommodate the wide differences. The difference in the movement system alone is enough to give serious configuration problems (which is a great pity because there are many good things in Privateer 2 - as a game I like it) . I'd suggest that the time/space seperation must be such that we can't integrate the data from Privateer 2 into the Kilrathi-era Wing Commander Universe. There just isn't a common basis there.
One way we could accommodate Privateer 2 is to assume it takes place in a space box-canyon; an area that can only be reached by a single jump-point - which the Kilrathi mined and interdicted into effective oblivion. Thus, isolated from the rest of the Confederation, their technology and society has started to diverge from the mainstream (which gives us a nice opening for Privateer 4 - Reunion).
It would have to be a very wide seperation both in time and in space. to accommodate the wide differences. The difference in the movement system alone is enough to give serious configuration problems (which is a great pity because there are many good things in Privateer 2 - as a game I like it) . I'd suggest that the time/space seperation must be such that we can't integrate the data from Privateer 2 into the Kilrathi-era Wing Commander Universe. There just isn't a common basis there.
One way we could accommodate Privateer 2 is to assume it takes place in a space box-canyon; an area that can only be reached by a single jump-point - which the Kilrathi mined and interdicted into effective oblivion. Thus, isolated from the rest of the Confederation, their technology and society has started to diverge from the mainstream (which gives us a nice opening for Privateer 4 - Reunion).
WildWeasel
Spaceman
I still don't believe that the differences between Privateer 2 and the rest of the Wing Commander games are significant enough to warrant its rejection from Wing Commander canon.
Pr-3
I was discussing the possibility of an enhanced development of Privateer 1 in another string; once I get disentangled from the FY03 and FY04 US defense budgets, I intend to explore whats involved in buying the rights to Privateer 1 .
Privateer 3 I have in mind as a version of Privateer 1 using the starmap from Prophecy as a base and set in the dying days of the Kilrathi war. If it falls into place, then Privateer 4 would be a bridge that brings Privateer 2 into the fold (assume that the isolation of the Pr-2 segment happened early in the war, we could have almost a century of development before the reunification took place. That plus isolation explains the gaps .
I was discussing the possibility of an enhanced development of Privateer 1 in another string; once I get disentangled from the FY03 and FY04 US defense budgets, I intend to explore whats involved in buying the rights to Privateer 1 .
Privateer 3 I have in mind as a version of Privateer 1 using the starmap from Prophecy as a base and set in the dying days of the Kilrathi war. If it falls into place, then Privateer 4 would be a bridge that brings Privateer 2 into the fold (assume that the isolation of the Pr-2 segment happened early in the war, we could have almost a century of development before the reunification took place. That plus isolation explains the gaps .
Potential Privateer 3
Probably about two years afterwards IIRC, Privateer I is set in 2669 and Righteous Fire a year afterwards (2670). The Kilrathi War ended (again IIRC) 2672. So Privateer 3 would be set in the period roughly around that time with news of the destruction of Kilrah coming in sometime during the course of the game and causing all hell to break loose.
Obviously a lot depends on finance for such things; how much EA want for the rights to Privateer I and how much it would cost to do the recoding. I would see "3" as being a Righeous Fire type add on, using as little new code as possible but a lot of new systems and missions.
And dealing with the Kilrathi (running catnip to Kilrah may well be a real possibility)
Probably about two years afterwards IIRC, Privateer I is set in 2669 and Righteous Fire a year afterwards (2670). The Kilrathi War ended (again IIRC) 2672. So Privateer 3 would be set in the period roughly around that time with news of the destruction of Kilrah coming in sometime during the course of the game and causing all hell to break loose.
Obviously a lot depends on finance for such things; how much EA want for the rights to Privateer I and how much it would cost to do the recoding. I would see "3" as being a Righeous Fire type add on, using as little new code as possible but a lot of new systems and missions.
And dealing with the Kilrathi (running catnip to Kilrah may well be a real possibility)
WildWeasel
Spaceman
The war ended in 2669.
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
Re: Potential Privateer 3
um...how much money do you HAVE exactly? That would cost quite a bit....
About P2, i've yet to play it, sadly (but I just bought it off ebay, so soon enough....), but from what I have gathered from conversations about it's really NOT that different. It seems quite beleivable that it could take place (what, 90 years?) after the Kilrathi War.
um...how much money do you HAVE exactly? That would cost quite a bit....
About P2, i've yet to play it, sadly (but I just bought it off ebay, so soon enough....), but from what I have gathered from conversations about it's really NOT that different. It seems quite beleivable that it could take place (what, 90 years?) after the Kilrathi War.
Pr-2
Are you sure? I know Privateer is 2669 with RF being a year later and the Kilrathi War is still going on then. Its been a long time since I looked at WC3 but I'm fairly certain that was set in 2672. On the other hand, I may be wrong there. No matter, the idea would be to set the new product in the year the war ends so that it takes place in the backwash of the war ending,
Are you sure? I know Privateer is 2669 with RF being a year later and the Kilrathi War is still going on then. Its been a long time since I looked at WC3 but I'm fairly certain that was set in 2672. On the other hand, I may be wrong there. No matter, the idea would be to set the new product in the year the war ends so that it takes place in the backwash of the war ending,
Re: Re: Potential Privateer 3
I work in the defense industry........
Answer? I don't know. It depends on how much EA want for the rights. If they still have the rights - and when the copyright expires. I've got to talk to lawyers and accountants. I'd also have to hire somebody to do the programming since thats not my thing.
BUT, and this is the big but - the internet allows us to do a lot of things that couldn't be done before. So I'm not going to dismiss the idea until I've checked it out (and my accountant earns his fees for once).
I work in the defense industry........
Answer? I don't know. It depends on how much EA want for the rights. If they still have the rights - and when the copyright expires. I've got to talk to lawyers and accountants. I'd also have to hire somebody to do the programming since thats not my thing.
BUT, and this is the big but - the internet allows us to do a lot of things that couldn't be done before. So I'm not going to dismiss the idea until I've checked it out (and my accountant earns his fees for once).
WildWeasel
Spaceman
The war ended in 2669. As I recall, Righteous Fire was also set during that year. Since the war was still going on during the game, the introduction has to be taken with a grain of salt. It obviously does not take place during 2670.
WildWeasel
Spaceman
It isn't. Nowhere in any of the games or novels does it specifically state that Blair is *not* a Pilgrim, thus, there is no contradiction. If there's no contradiction, there's no reason to discard it.
Re: Re: Potential Privateer 3
Not true.
P2 is VERY different. The navy in P2 actually tends to have more in common with the various pirate groups running around in the game, than it does with Confed, imho. It also ends up coming across as pretty ineffective, considering the number of pirates running rampant in just a three system area. There's enough pirate ships running loose in the area to single handedly turn back a Kilrathi invasion fleet.
While any changes can be explained using the passage of time, there are a lot of differences between the society of the Kilrathi and Nephilim Wars, and the society in Privateer 2.
Not true.
P2 is VERY different. The navy in P2 actually tends to have more in common with the various pirate groups running around in the game, than it does with Confed, imho. It also ends up coming across as pretty ineffective, considering the number of pirates running rampant in just a three system area. There's enough pirate ships running loose in the area to single handedly turn back a Kilrathi invasion fleet.
While any changes can be explained using the passage of time, there are a lot of differences between the society of the Kilrathi and Nephilim Wars, and the society in Privateer 2.