My Wing Commander 1 Models

CMDBob

Ensign
Right, got two new things here for you, the Dorkir and the Arrow light fighter.

First up, the Dorkir:


And next up, the Arrow.



These renders look different, as I changed renderer from the default scanline one in 3ds Max to the mental ray render, looks MUCH better.

Next up is the Tiger's Claw. I wanted to do another WC1 ship, and I thought it was time for a true carrier. After that, the Raptor, then something Kilrathi...
 

CMDBob

Ensign
Well, it's been a bit, but here it comes; the Tiger's Claw (and a couple of other Bengals too!)







And there's this shot which I don't want to embed as an image as it's a thread-stretching, layout-destroying 1920x1080.

Next up, the Raptor, which would mean I have all four WC1 Confed fighters done! Then, something Kilrathi, perhaps the Fralthi (which would mean I have all three WC1 Kilrathi capitals done. [not including Secret Missions, because er... I'm not including it, and not including the star post as it's a spacestation, not a capship!]) So, yeah... enjoy!
 
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Awww sweet. I like that you showed some Bengal carriers other than the Claw. Very cool with the color coding and everything. Did the confederation color code their ships? In the WC1-WC2 era it seems like there were a lot of dark green, brownish ships.
 

CMDBob

Ensign
They didn't really, but I'm going for a "green = WC1/2 era", "blue = WC3 era" and "myeyesorangeyred = Border Worlds fleet". (Speaking of which, I'm probably gonna go back and adjust the colours on my Border World's scheme, that orange is just FAR too bright.)

Oh, urgh, I must have made an error or two when I made the original post, too. Two images didn't embed right (and one has since been deleted and replaced, heheh. orange, BE GONE!) Here they are:


 

Marc

Commodore
The Gilgamesh style engine intake on the stern is a sweet idea. Never dawn on me to try it. I like it. Could maybe tighten up the black box around them, so as to not use up as much space. And did you try varying the size of the red intake spheres? Making the innermost one the biggest and the outermost one the smallest.

(btw, that last red Bengal just screams "bloodlust"... and it scares me a little)
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Awww sweet. I like that you showed some Bengal carriers other than the Claw. Very cool with the color coding and everything. Did the confederation color code their ships? In the WC1-WC2 era it seems like there were a lot of dark green, brownish ships.
That's actually a really big and interesting can of worms. We know how things went in reality - you could have two identical carriers in service at the same time, painted differently, because they were using a different camo schemes. Similarly, one carrier could change its paintjob several times not just during its lifetime but during a single war, as different service environments, seasons, duties all could require a different scheme. And of course, all camos were dropped when the war was over, and suddenly all ships were painted alike.

What's the story in the WC universe? We never, ever see any paintjob that could claim to be a camouflage (one exception: the Strakha in WC Academy, which is actually painted black). Is there a universal Confed Navy colour scheme, then? Do different fleets have different colour schemes, or is there just one scheme which changes over time? If that's the case... would we ever see a situation where a carrier changes paintjobs in order to fool the Kilrathi into thinking that Confed has brought in reinforcements from another fleet?
 

capi3101

Rear Admiral
I would say that there wouldn't be much of a point to having different paint jobs for different ships in the same fleet (especially if the purpose was camouflage). Visual camouflage would be largely worthless in a space environment; I mean, a cap ship could be picked up on radar (or its 27th century, probably tachyon-based equivalent), its engine signature analyzed via the ship's signal and electronic intelligence divisions, and cross-referenced against a database of friendly craft (with the assumption that anything that can't be identified as friendly tagged as a bogey, possibly hostile). WC already has technology in place that does this (IFF Missiles), and also known hostile craft. So well before a ship would enter visual range, you'd a) know it was there and b) if it was a friendly or not. In that environment, paint jobs would be a vanity thing...not a priority during time of war.

So, along Quarto's line of thought, what's most likely is a color-scheme that changed over time. Situations where one side threw on a new coat of paint with the intent to confuse the other are not likely.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Visual camouflage would be largely worthless in a space environment; I mean, a cap ship could be picked up on radar (or its 27th century, probably tachyon-based equivalent), its engine signature analyzed via the ship's signal and electronic intelligence divisions, and cross-referenced against a database of friendly craft (with the assumption that anything that can't be identified as friendly tagged as a bogey, possibly hostile). WC already has technology in place that does this (IFF Missiles), and also known hostile craft. So well before a ship would enter visual range, you'd a) know it was there and b) if it was a friendly or not. In that environment, paint jobs would be a vanity thing...not a priority during time of war.
Well, first up, notice that radar in WC does not appear to have that huge a range - ships disappear off our radar at about 30,000 kilometres, and while presumably capships have much bigger radar range, we nonetheless witness a few situations where an enemy fleet is able to surprise the enemy by staying undetected until they enter radar range. I would not be surprised, therefore, if radar was augmented by visual searches - if our astronomers today can observe the edges of the our planetary system using telescopes, we can imagine that in the 27th century, there are soldiers using powerful telescopes to observe space around nearby jump points and the like.

Secondly, notice that visual camouflage can in fact sometimes help stay hidden - we see this happen in the WC movie, where the Tiger's Claw hides in a crater. If the Movie Claw were painted a bright green, that might not work so well, right? Similarly, I've pointed out that the black paintjob on the Strakha prototype in WC Academy actually helped a lot.

Thirdly, visual camouflage has more purposes than just remaining undetected. It's also intended to mislead the enemy. Take the situation we see in End Run, for example. Prince Thrakhath receives an intel photo of the Tarawa, and - because it's impossible to determine its size from the photo - he mistakes it for the Concordia. But repainting a ship is not something that can be done overnight (and probably involves a space dock, rather than the crew walking out the airlock with space-paint - though you never know), it takes time. Therefore, the only way Thrakhath could mistake the Tarawa for the Concordia is if a) he know what the Concordia's current paintjob is, and b) the Tarawa was painted similarly.

Finally, while we don't know what paint jobs are used for in the WC universe, we can safely assume one thing: paint jobs are most definitely not a vanity thing. They must serve a practical purpose, for the simple reason that otherwise, nobody would bother with them. Why paint something as huge as a carrier a bright green colour? Paint not only costs money, it also has physical properties like mass - towards the end of WWII, the US Air Force actually stopped painting its bombers, because it was found that an unpainted B-17 bomber, being some 200kg (!!) lighter, could reach higher speeds - and this gave it a bigger advantage than camouflage did. Now, I'm pretty amazed by the fact that the paint on a B-17 added up to 200kg, but apparently that is the case. And if that's the case for a B-17, imagine the situation for a 700 metre-long carrier. We're talking hundreds of tonnes. So, if paint jobs were purely vanity, they would actually be a hindrance to the war effort. We must assume there was a purpose to them.

(and of course, we can imagine various purposes to applying a coat of paint to a ship - the paint could be radar-absorbent, it could be used to strengthen the hull, whatever - what we do not know is why this paint has a specific colour)
 

starfox1701

Petty Officer
Modern stealth aircraft have paint that absorbs radar wave to help with their steath abilities. In Star Trek the paint on ships also absorb harmful EM spectra to help protect the crew from radiation. It is likly that WC ship paint coud also serve a simalar function. Oh course there is one other possibility that has not been considered. That is that non of the ship are painted in the first place. If memory serves the WC Bible talks about plasteal being the primary building material of all human and Kilrathi craft and ships. It is posible that veriations in the manufacting process for thickness or base composition could dramatically effect the wavelength of light reflecting off the surface of this material and therefor the color we see.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Finally, while we don't know what paint jobs are used for in the WC universe, we can safely assume one thing: paint jobs are most definitely not a vanity thing. They must serve a practical purpose, for the simple reason that otherwise, nobody would bother with them. Why paint something as huge as a carrier a bright green colour? Paint not only costs money, it also has physical properties like mass - towards the end of WWII, the US Air Force actually stopped painting its bombers, because it was found that an unpainted B-17 bomber, being some 200kg (!!) lighter, could reach higher speeds - and this gave it a bigger advantage than camouflage did. Now, I'm pretty amazed by the fact that the paint on a B-17 added up to 200kg, but apparently that is the case. And if that's the case for a B-17, imagine the situation for a 700 metre-long carrier. We're talking hundreds of tonnes.
Modern paint does weigh less, but you are still looking at hundreds of kilograms for a large airliner today: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_05/textonly/fo01txt.html
 

Ilanin

Captain
Quarto said:
Prince Thrakhath receives an intel photo of the Tarawa, and - because it's impossible to determine its size from the photo - he mistakes it for the Concordia. But repainting a ship is not something that can be done overnight (and probably involves a space dock, rather than the crew walking out the airlock with space-paint - though you never know), it takes time. Therefore, the only way Thrakhath could mistake the Tarawa for the Concordia is if a) he know what the Concordia's current paintjob is, and b) the Tarawa was painted similarly.
I don't think this quite happens the way you think it does, assuming we're talking about the reaction to the initial assault on Vukar Tag. Thrakhath gets a report that the invasion force was escorted by "two light carriers of a new design" and speculates about a possible modification of the Concordia design (and as to whether he's thinking of the Concordia or Confederation classes, well, anybody's guess). There's no indication from p134-9 of End Run that the Kilrathi burst transmission includes any images of the Tarawa or the Sevastopol. Still, the logic is sound. Making Confederation capital ships look like each other, and therefore potentially confusing viewers who don't have the benefit of scale, is likely a valid means of deception.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
I don't think this quite happens the way you think it does, assuming we're talking about the reaction to the initial assault on Vukar Tag. Thrakhath gets a report that the invasion force was escorted by "two light carriers of a new design" and speculates about a possible modification of the Concordia design (and as to whether he's thinking of the Concordia or Confederation classes, well, anybody's guess). There's no indication from p134-9 of End Run that the Kilrathi burst transmission includes any images of the Tarawa or the Sevastopol. Still, the logic is sound. Making Confederation capital ships look like each other, and therefore potentially confusing viewers who don't have the benefit of scale, is likely a valid means of deception.
Hmm, you are correct. My memory is playing tricks on me.

I checked the book, there's definitely nothing to indicate any visual confusion. Theoretically, it's possible - Jukaga later says he compared the images sent from Vukar Tag with the ones from the Sartha, so we can assume Thrakhath is seeing an image of the Tarawa when speculating if it's a modified Concordia. However, there's very little point in speculating about that. All that we can assume is that scale, at least, is playing tricks on Thrakhath - if he could tell the Tarawa is half the size of the Concordia, he wouldn't be speculating about it being a modification of the design.

(and yeah, he does mean the Confederation class - at the time when End Run was written, there was no such thing as a Concordia-class - that one got invented in WC4, and apparently by accident)
 

starfox1701

Petty Officer
I think 700 years in the future it is safe to assume that a battle report will include images and video from the battle if they have any.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
What's the story in the WC universe? We never, ever see any paintjob that could claim to be a camouflage (one exception: the Strakha in WC Academy, which is actually painted black). Is there a universal Confed Navy colour scheme, then? Do different fleets have different colour schemes, or is there just one scheme which changes over time? If that's the case... would we ever see a situation where a carrier changes paintjobs in order to fool the Kilrathi into thinking that Confed has brought in reinforcements from another fleet?
We don't (necessarily) see see it, but we do know camo schemes exist in Wing Commander. There's a point in End Run where Kilrathi fighters are identified as having 'ground camo' and then in Fleet Action the Landreich fighters are all painted stealth gray.

I think 700 years in the future it is safe to assume that a battle report will include images and video from the battle if they have any.
Sure, but not necessarily for the Prince. Think of how the bureaucracy works today in a single country, tens of thousands of people reporting on tens of thousands of things each day... but with a massive, necessary filtering process, too, so that the President ends up with a few single sentence items describing what's deemed the most important things for him to know about.
 

CMDBob

Ensign
Been a while since I posted anything, thanks to uni (sooo much work...) I managed to find some time over the weekend to finally finish off the Raptor. Here it is:



So yeah, what did I say was next... Ahh yes, the Fralthi! Might take a while, thanks to uni work, but I'll find a bit of spare downtime here and there.
 
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