Let me get this straight...
- Thread starter LividLiquid
- Start date
"Once we become a spacefaring race I envision a standard timekeeping system" ah yes that glorious moment in which we are now indisputably a "spacefaring" race, when one and all throughout the galaxies find themselves filled with an understanding of the true meaning of life, that glorious moment when we set aside all differences and imbrace unity. When we start wareing the same funky jumpsuit. The day we all speak english. The day we all dicide that yes [insert your favorite musician here] was the greatest musician of all time, and to listen to any other music would be a waste.
Is that how you invision the future? How should I put this? Umm NO! Hell we don't all follow the same calander, on earth. The question is, what year is this? The answer all depends on the calander your using to answer. While physical boundries may break down with further advances in transportation, would culture and religion, become equally insignifigent? I doubt it, sure races may all blend into one, but beliefs wouldn't, if anything exposure to more concepts would further fragment belief systems to the point where there may no longer be mass religion only personal religion, making for an even greater diversity.
As for the star trek refrences, think about a movie following a group of colonists as they attempt to escape the cyrstiline entity, or perhaps a show in the past "when the walls fell" [in refrence to the race that commanly used the phrase "... when the walls fell" when a situation seemed hopeless in a refrence to some historical point] while it would be in the same universe it certianly wouldn't show similarities to any of the series or movies, and refrences to the federation of planets would be non-existant.
[Edited by Dekkar on 02-15-2001 at 19:11]
Is that how you invision the future? How should I put this? Umm NO! Hell we don't all follow the same calander, on earth. The question is, what year is this? The answer all depends on the calander your using to answer. While physical boundries may break down with further advances in transportation, would culture and religion, become equally insignifigent? I doubt it, sure races may all blend into one, but beliefs wouldn't, if anything exposure to more concepts would further fragment belief systems to the point where there may no longer be mass religion only personal religion, making for an even greater diversity.
As for the star trek refrences, think about a movie following a group of colonists as they attempt to escape the cyrstiline entity, or perhaps a show in the past "when the walls fell" [in refrence to the race that commanly used the phrase "... when the walls fell" when a situation seemed hopeless in a refrence to some historical point] while it would be in the same universe it certianly wouldn't show similarities to any of the series or movies, and refrences to the federation of planets would be non-existant.
[Edited by Dekkar on 02-15-2001 at 19:11]
Umm YES! Think about it! Take the number of different calendars today multiplied by some number (100,1000,whatever) in the future to match the number of different colonized planets. I've read a lot of scifi and any WELL THOUGHT story involving the distant future usually has a standard calendar.
EXACTLY! So what is the point in calling it part of the Trek series. If you produce a book/movie and call it the "NEXT TREK" people are going to expect to see a Trek movie. If your production has as many references in it to the Trek universe as P2 has to the WCU then you are going to have some unhappy trekkies.
It wasn't called "Wing commander 5
2 the darkening". It's a spinoff. One that while in the same universe, was distant enough not to use it in the title. Cheers and Frasier are in the same universe, Frasier is a spinoff, but it's not called "Cheers2: the Frasier saga" as such it isn't trying to mislead people, it's mearly a fleshing out of an exsisting universe.
There probably would be some form of standardized time system for interactions with other areas, but WHY would they use it in Priv2 they are essentially in the middle of nowhere. They would be using there local calender based on the rotations of the sun on whatever planet they choose to base there calander on. So essentially they would have a local calander for each individual planet a standardized calander for there lonely little corner of the galaxy , and human standard time which they would have no reason to use in the game.
2 the darkening". It's a spinoff. One that while in the same universe, was distant enough not to use it in the title. Cheers and Frasier are in the same universe, Frasier is a spinoff, but it's not called "Cheers2: the Frasier saga" as such it isn't trying to mislead people, it's mearly a fleshing out of an exsisting universe.There probably would be some form of standardized time system for interactions with other areas, but WHY would they use it in Priv2 they are essentially in the middle of nowhere. They would be using there local calender based on the rotations of the sun on whatever planet they choose to base there calander on. So essentially they would have a local calander for each individual planet a standardized calander for there lonely little corner of the galaxy , and human standard time which they would have no reason to use in the game.
Same difference; the practical as well as emotional incentives a given planet has to make its own annual reckonings will remain.
No, you’re still making an aesthetic argument that has nothing to do with WC canon. (If you want to attack the canon about P2, I don’t see any way to do it except along the lines I suggested earlier, but I don’t get the impression you’re prepared to reject the game manuals, guides, novels, etc.)
As for your aesthetic argument, I must say it’s very extreme. You’re essentially proposing that the “genuineness” of a work of fiction depends on the “purity” or “constancy” of the writer’s intent. But on this logic, we’d have to conclude, for example, that Sherlock Holmes really did die with Professor Moriarty at the Reichenbach Falls (since that was Conan Doyle’s intention in writing “The Final Problem”), and that every subsequent Holmes story is not genuine and just a scam (since Conan Doyle changed his mind after the fact and proceeded to make more money from his “dead” character).
Do you believe that?
I'm not saying that each colonized planet will continue to use an Earth calendar but that there will probably be two - a common calendar and a local one. Time will tell though.
What is the "WC Canon"? Is it written down somewhere? Is the only rule that the story cannot conflict with the WC timeline as it exists (can we write a WC story with Klingons and Vulcans?). Or is there a rule that states that any WCU story must contain no less than X number of vague references to star systems or organizations? As for game manuals, guides, et al: quote them all you want. I could buy the WC license and replace the cover of a Trek novel with "WC - Next Generation" but it won't make it part of the WC Universe.
Look, EA/Origin can make any kind of game and call it "part of the WCU"; it doesn't make it one. However, P2 had only slightly more cohesiveness with the WCU than Freespace or I-War which (from what I've seen of them) could...with a little imagination...have fit into the WCU. Star Trek, Star Wars, etc all have something unique to them besides the characters. But hey, if you & Origin want to call it WCU then fine - but I wasn't sold. As for your remark on Sherlock see below.
A very poor example: Frasier (the show) uses a character from Cheers. By calling it Frasier, with the same character and personality, it is basically billed as a spinoff from Cheers. Someone who watched the Cheers series could immediately tell that Frasier (the show) was a spinoff. You couldn't say the same for P2 from the WCU.
"By calling it Frasier, with the same character and personality, it is basically billed as a spinoff from Cheers. Someone who watched the Cheers series could immediately tell that Frasier (the show) was a spinoff. You couldn't say the same for P2 from the WCU."
ok, I'll buy that, so then what's wrong with the Crystiline entity movie. By calling it "cyrstiline entity" with the same character and personality, it is billed as a spinoff of Star Trek. Someone who watched "Star Trek: the next generation" could immediately tell that Crystiline entity [the movie] was a spinoff.
ok, I'll buy that, so then what's wrong with the Crystiline entity movie. By calling it "cyrstiline entity" with the same character and personality, it is billed as a spinoff of Star Trek. Someone who watched "Star Trek: the next generation" could immediately tell that Crystiline entity [the movie] was a spinoff.
Just to refute the earth year potentially being standard argument, if planets formed around a red type star that is significantly less hot than sol, then a planet supporting humanoids could form considerably closer to that star and have equivelent heating to earth. Also I never considered it, but we do not know that all the people in the tri-system are humans, even if alot are that does not mean that 2000 years by whoever's years has anything to do with humans, perhaps humans just arived a few years ago and are begining to have some humans integrate into tri-system culture, just becuase they resemball humans on the outside does not mean that they are humans on the inside, or are exactly the same, for example in Farscape there is an entire race of creatures which on the outside appear to be human yet they are partially cold blooded.
Master_Anarchist
Spaceman
i dont think red giants are formed, old stars expand to red giant when they run out of hydrogen to fuse.
I’m sure you know that the canon is based, first and foremost, on Origin’s conceptions of the WC universe.
Conflict is fine (and fun!) as long as there’s the possibility of resolution.
My sense of your objection to P2 is that Origin has crafted a “bad” WC story because the idea of the Tri-System is just not appealing to you. To be sure, that’s absolutely your call. But you shouldn’t argue that your personal disappointment is somehow proof positive that the Tri-System is not and could never be a part of the WC universe.
Mysteries or “gaps” in the storyline give us something to puzzle over and reason out on our own. We don’t need or necessarily want Origin to spoon-feed us every little fact or confirm/discount every possible plot twist.
On the contrary, it does. Origin as the creator has the absolute right to say what is true and what is false about the WC universe. We as the “audience” have the absolute right to applaud, boo, or even walk out, but not rewrite.
No, in terms of canon, Origin has no obligation to convince you that the Tri-System is a part of the WC universe, rather you have the burden of proving that the Tri-System isn’t, and you haven’t done that.
LividLiquid
Rear Admiral
Why do all of you seem to assume that because we don't think Privateer 2 is part of the Wing Commander universe, we must not like it. I love the game. Love it to death. I just don't think it takes place in the WCU as we know it.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
"as we know it", being the operative phrase (G)
By "conflict", I meant that one couldn't write a story that directly conflicts with the WCU timeline. But there again, writers have taken all sorts of liberties with licenses (Trek being a good example).
I'm sorry, did I post that I had proof!?! No, my posts have only gone so far as to say that the thread linking P2 to the WCU was thin - which it is. My posts have stated that while WC1-4 & P1 were clearly and easily identified as part of the WCU, P2 was not. That is not to say that it's not part of the WCU, only that it was largely unrecognizable as being part of the WCU! Origin could have taken I-War & Freespace and slapped a "Part of WCU" sticker on them and, yes, they WOULD have then been part of the WCU. As for the WC 'canon' - it doesn't exist by your definition because it can be anything the developers want: "Space-faring bunny rabbits" or "killer telepathic bovine" - whatever. You want a true canon? Look to the Trek, Star Wars, or DragonLance universes. They have defined rules and regulations where all stories that try to fit into those universes must abide by.
No argument. They can call it whatever they want, however public opinion (and what appears to be the majority on this thread) seem to think that P2 did not fit well into the WCU. By the way, I have a Yugo that I call a Porche and will sell it to you for $45K - cheap.
Absolutely! Can you tell me that someone playing I-War, Freespace, WC1-4, P1 & P2 could easily identify which universe each game belonged in? I'll bet not.
Putting entries into a database saying a cargo vessel can travel and deliver cargo within Confederation space and not see any Confed bases or ships is indeed confusing. I enjoy P2 very much, and to this day continue to play thru that game and build up net worth. Maybe it is a part of the overall WC universe, maybe not. As some have mentioned here, there is the "feel" of the WC universe in Privateer and RF. But when you get into the cockpit and fly around in P2, it shure feels like your somewhere else. One thing that is definately puzzling is the CIS. If the system was so remote and away from mainstream Confed space, wouldnt Confed have a vital interest in protecting that system? The CIS seems like its own built from the ground up military. Regardless of what the printed material says, or what the "Booth" database has in it, the spaceflight part of the game seriously lacks any element of Wing Commander, other than that suprise Talon fighter. When I first played this game, I indeed thought that it was a part of WC. But soon realized that there was something missing. As the game progressed, I was hoping to see something of Confed either in spaceflight or the storyline and movie. I realize all the games of WC concentrated on certian sectors of the overall WC universe for that particular game. But in each game, even the "spinoff" Privateer and RF, there were Confed bases, Confed ships, Confed personell, Confed missions, and of course, the war with the Kilrathi in both Privateer and RF. Even tho Privateer and RF had its own storyline, its own plot, its own identity, it is flooded with elements of the regular Wing Commander universe. I hope I didnt stir up everyones nerves with my comments. Either way, P2 is a very good game and lots of fun. I was just making an observation to both the game and disputed timeline discrepancies.
RFBurns
"Begging is pointless, Sir!" [Kindred, Privateer 2 TD]
RFBurns
"Begging is pointless, Sir!" [Kindred, Privateer 2 TD]
Sorry to point this out, but the rest of the worlds population, ie, 5.7 billion of us, have had to put up with the fact that nearly every movie, tv show or game would have us believe that in years to come, everyone would have an American accent.
Now, thats a BITTER pill to swallow.
Personally, I thought the British accents were a refreshing change! Just count yourself lucky they didn't speak with a Cockney accent!
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
You find the concept of a place where everyone speaks with a British accent *HARD TO SWALLOW*?
So, should we start a debate as to whether or not England is part of the world?
So, should we start a debate as to whether or not England is part of the world?