WC:U intro movie

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Eder

Mr. Standoff
How come? It sounds downright illogical to me that a space sim engine developed from the ground up by a dedicated bunch of programmers can't be made to not generate mission types that require capships for some preset factions.
 
You can make capship less factions, but then you have to tweak the mission generator a LOT. I tried and gave it up for the moment because it's a lot of work. If you know Phyton, please do better than me :) it's not hard, I know hardly anything about uhm, anything.
 

charlieg

Spaceman
Eder said:
Uh, sorry, but if it didn't exist by 1998, I can't mod it. :p

s/can't/won't/

Nothing is stopping you learning how to mod for VS and work on WCU. It's not exactly rocket science.

;)
 

KrisV

Administrator
I hear this argument a lot from people involved with Open Source projects. It's their project, they should know how to fix this or take the time to learn. You can't deflect any and all criticism with a "do it yourself then" just because all the source code can be downloaded.
 

charlieg

Spaceman
Don't be so obnoxious. There are only a handful of people working on WCU at the moment, and they can't be expected to do everything instantly. They need help. And I was just pointing out that Eder could help if he wanted, a statement which applies to anybody. It is open source software, and because of that manpower is a really low commodity.
 

BradMick

Vice Admiral
i dunno, i've always been of the mindset, do it right before the release...that way you don't have to recruit people to fix your stuff for you. thats my main probloem with the open source mentality.

'we don't have to do it right, thats what other people out there are for!'
 

Eder

Mr. Standoff
charlieg said:
There are only a handful of people working on WCU at the moment, and they can't be expected to do everything instantly. They need help. And I was just pointing out that Eder could help if he wanted, a statement which applies to anybody.
Sorry, but that doesn't cut it. Ok, so, every team needs help. But some listen to people's opinions and try to make use of them (in the interest of making the game more enjoyable for a larger audience) instead of telling people to make better games themselves. I have zero interest in WCU being a fun project, you can't expect me to go out of my way to help you. It's your game, you help yourself - I'll just go read a book if I don't like the way your game turns out.

charlieg said:
It is open source software, and because of that manpower is a really low commodity.
Again, you're wrong. Manpower for an open source project is much more abundant than for the traditional mod-someone-else's-work type of thing. I would know. If I understand it correctly, anyone who can code in some particular language can change any aspect of the VS engine. That's how people make software all around the planet - what's so particularly challenging about WCU's development?

charlieg said:
s/can't/won't/
Can't = won't is old freaking news. You probably can't do most of the stuff I can do either, but why should you? Why should you be interested in accomplishing my goals?

charlieg said:
Nothing is stopping you learning how to mod for VS and work on WCU. It's not exactly rocket science.
That makes no sense at all. You're telling me, as a player, that I should take a game I don't like, and modify it until I like it? How about you, as a developer, deliver a finished product instead? That's not rocket science either. People do it all the time. It's just some open source numbnuts thinking that the rule doesn't apply to them, as Kris already pointed out. (And I'm not saying ALL open source projects are incapable of delivering good "finished" products... I love that ultima-7-remake-thing)
 

charlieg

Spaceman
Eder said:
You're telling me, as a player, that I should take a game I don't like, and modify it until I like it?
If you don't like it, what the hell are you doing posting here? You must like at least some part of it to be posting requests for new features and joining in discussion.

How can we have heated debates if one side of the argument is so freakin' ludicrous? "Yeah, I don't like this game, but please do $FOO." I just spit my cup of tea all over my keyboard in laughter.
 

ricree101

Spaceman
Who was banned for a while? Charlieg? Please tell me that it wasn't for that last post.


I have to agree that Eder's position is a little hard to understand. He asks for a substantial change that the projects main coder says would be hard to impliment. When asked to actually help on the project, he is very much unwilling. Obviously, he is under no obligation to help on the project. That said, it is unreasonable to expect complex changes to the engine or mission generator.
 

PeteyG

I can have an avatar now
Wow, charlieg totally shouldn't have been banned. If this issue was getting out of hand, the topic should have been closed. If it was off topic, it should have been split.

Eder is wrong. He was just a dude making a valid feature request until he kept poking and prodding about implementation details even after the guys in the know said "that'd be real hard". That signals he's interested in how the code works, which is asking for an invitation to help out.

Ed declined the invitation on the basis of him not being able to. Charlie responded (correctly) explaining that it's not too tough. Then it turned into a Federal case that ended up with someone banned, and childishly being given a stupid avatar. Hooray for... nothing good.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Charlieg's posts were pretty immature.

Eder and Spiritplumber were having a perfectly reasonable and polite discussion of a gameplay issue... and then he joined in to rant and rave. Whether or not there's anything to his argument (no one has explained why removing the capital ship requirement is hard), it came off as basically "how dare you criticize the project?" That's a very poor attitude for a team to take (particularly at a message board that pretty much exists so people can offer their criticisms).

I probably wouldn't have banned him -- lord knows I'm happy to shout at people on the internet -- but when you decide to call KrisV obnoxious (for no reason other than that he disagreed with you and happened to have an avatar, from the looks of things) you put your account in your hands.


Eder is wrong. He was just a dude making a valid feature request until he kept poking and prodding about implementation details even after the guys in the know said "that'd be real hard". That signals he's interested in how the code works, which is asking for an invitation to help out.

Is he? Re-read the thread. Eder asked about the feature, Spiritplumber said it would be difficult and so Eder asked why... Spiritplumber replied saying that it would be possible but not something that could be done right now. Eder replied with a joke about Standoff, effectively ending the discussion. *Then* charlieg decided to take offense and yell at Eder.

(To which Eder responded with a perfectly polite and logical post... that charlieg decided to respond to with some dumb internet theatrics about tea. If there's anything we should encourage, it's intelligent debate -- which is what Eder was engaging in, right or wrong, and charlieg was failing to grasp.)
 

Eder

Mr. Standoff
ricree101 said:
Eder's position is a little hard to understand.When asked to actually help on the project, he is very much unwilling. Obviously, he is under no obligation to help on the project. That said, it is unreasonable to expect complex changes to the engine or mission generator.
But it's not unreasonable to *suggest* complex changes to whatever it is, or to ask for an explanation about why such a change would be so complex to begin with - and that's the perfectly respectful discussion me and spiritplumber were having. I see nothing hard to understand about it.

PeteyG said:
Eder is wrong. He was just a dude making a valid feature request until he kept poking and prodding about implementation details even after the guys in the know said "that'd be real hard". That signals he's interested in how the code works, which is asking for an invitation to help out.
How is being interested in how the code works asking for an invitation to help out? Maybe I just wanted to know how the code works so I could brag about my project's decade-old engine being able to handle the issue better. :p Please don't take my posts and make random assumptions about their true hidden meaning.

The fact that I asked about it again after being told it was hard to do only means I wanted an answer to a question that came to me when I read spiritplumber's initial post: "what the hell is an open source engine good for if you can't/won't modify it to better suit your projects needs?"

The answer to that question, I'm 100% sure, is not "well, why don't YOU edit it to suit my project's needs?" - which is the kind of argument charlieg was dragging me into, and that's when the whole thing started going down the crapper.

Bandit LOAF said:
Eder asked about the feature, Spiritplumber said it would be difficult and so Eder asked why... Spiritplumber replied saying that it would be possible but not something that could be done right now. Eder replied with a joke about Standoff, effectively ending the discussion. *Then* charlieg decided to take offense and yell at Eder.
LOAF nailed it down pretty well there.
 

Maj.Striker

Swabbie
Banned
Just to chime in with my worthless two cents, I think Loaf summed the situation up pretty well. I agree with him, he probably wouldn't have banned Charlie but to speak in Kris' defense (Not that he needs it), the ban is only temporarily and it ends an argument that could have gone nowhere but down anyway. Charlie will be back in a few days and be none the worse for it.

Sorry for interrupting.
 

PeteyG

I can have an avatar now
charlieg said:
s/can't/won't/

Nothing is stopping you learning how to mod for VS and work on WCU. It's not exactly rocket science.

;)
This is not a rant or rave. It is a correct assertation that it is not too tough to mod for VS or work on WCU, which is a reasonable response to the response of "I can't" to spiritplumber's request for help. This WOULD have been a "do it yourself" post if Eder had clearly said "I'm just a user, i don't want to develop" (instead of the joke about Standoff, which was pretty funny).

krisv said:
I hear this argument a lot from people involved with Open Source projects. It's their project, they should know how to fix this or take the time to learn. You can't deflect any and all criticism with a "do it yourself then" just because all the source code can be downloaded.
This is more of a rant/rave. It manufactures open source as an issue (which hadn't been mentioned by anyone up until that point). This capital ship + mission issue was clearly not a "learn and fix it yourself", but rather a "it's pretty tough, could you give us a hand?". There was no criticism deflected, there was no "do it yourself" argument.

eder said:
The answer to that question, I'm 100% sure, is not "well, why don't YOU edit it to suit my project's needs?" - which is the kind of argument charlieg was dragging me into
He wasn't dragging you into an argument... he just stated (correctly) that it's not hard to learn the stuff, in response to your own post of "I can't...".

There's really no argument to be made here, it's not like Eder said specifically "I don't WANT to develop or do any work for WCU" and charlieg said "Well if you've got a problem with it, fix it yourself!". Then there might have been reason for Administrators to become grumpy. But that's really not the way it went down...
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
PeteyG said:
This is not a rant or rave. It is a correct assertation that it is not too tough to mod for VS or work on WCU, which is a reasonable response to the response of "I can't" to spiritplumber's request for help. This WOULD have been a "do it yourself" post if Eder had clearly said "I'm just a user, i don't want to develop" (instead of the joke about Standoff, which was pretty funny).
You're missing the point entirely. The reason why this discussion went the way it did is not because Eder or the admins got grumpy - it's merely because we're all tired of the obnoxious open source mentality that infests projects like this. Because it is obnoxious when every inquiry about this or that feature is used as an opportunity to ask for help. Worse still is the fact that Charlieg's post was very much in the "if you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem" tone.
 
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