this game, WC Saga, and the truth

PopsiclePete

Mission programmer
meisdavidp said:
I thought you needed source codes to make mods? Did Origin somehow manage to slip the WC2 source past me? Then again, I don't know too much about modding. The editor that came with Morrowind made me wet myself in terror.
In fact, no. The fun part of making a mod is to actually learn to hack the game while not being able to alter/recompile the original code, at least for me :p
 

Eder

Mr. Standoff
You don't need source codes or official tools to make mods.

As Pierre said, those things actually take most of the fun away. :p
 

meisdavidp

All your belief cannot absolve your sin.
...your fun makes me shiver... you'll not be hacking my programing to mod my behavior I'll have you know!
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Yes, real men hex-edit. :)

All in all, it's hard to argue with success. For all their access to source code, pre-existing mission editors, a larger group of dedicated modders, a larger team of developers and a plan to use easier to aquire WC graphic elements... Saga still lost the race with Standoff -- three times over now.

(And for all those who will protest, there was certainly a race going on... which I think is part of the problem now -- because of the way the projects were presented for quite a while, no one expected Standoff to be so very, very far head of Saga.)

We should be asking ourselves: what happened? I firmly believe that the people themselves are fine: Tolwyn, Lars, etc. are as dedicated to Wing Commander as Eder, Quarto and company... everything we've seen indicates this. Their skill in 3D art as art is identical -- where Standoff did an amazing job capturing the WC2 feel, Saga appears to be similarly able to capture WC3. Their dedication is just as crazy... look at Lars' film shoot trailer! I can't find it in me to blame the people, save perhaps for a bad PR campaign.

So, then: is it the engine? Does Freespace just suck? Is this a case of two dedicated teams trying to do the same thing... and Saga running aground because all the open source in the world doesn't make it easy to force Freespace to be as good as Wing Commander? Are they struggling with figuring out how to add in an autopilot where Standoff didn't even need to give that process a second thought? Maybe that's the answer (they operate in secrecy, so we may never know... which you must chalk up to the bad PR campaign.)

And a point of fact for those debating engine changes, Saga already switched engines: it started life as a mod for Conquest: Frontier Wars.
 

meisdavidp

All your belief cannot absolve your sin.
the odd thing is there's definately at least one way to do autopilot in freespace... come to think of it, there's something very similar to the landing setup in wc3/4 too (except you don't need to request permission to land) I even remember there being missions where as soon as a goal would be completed you would get an inflight briefing. it pulled up a toned down debriefing interface, but instead of doing loadout and stuff all over again, there you are in the same ship as before with the same damage and the same ammo only in a new area. doesn't have the flair of those fun flyby scenes, but it's still enough to get the job done. And I know for a fact that the babylon 5 project team worked out several missions where as soon as you get within a certain proximity of a given ship the mission would end, no gate jump or anything. All they'd need to do is decrease that proximity to a point inside the hanger.

Having said all that, I don't know what would be involved at least in the landing segment, but they should have everything they need to fudge a rudamentory autopilot... (although if they could set up something where you could choose you nav point, I wouldn't complain).

Anyhow... now they they've gone at least mostly back in hiding, does anyone know if anything is happening in Sagaville?
 

avisolo

Spaceman
Hey People,
I was crazy enough to buy a Gameboy advance just to get the 'preserved' WCP, so I am crazy enough to wait till 2012 to play WCS if needed :D

Re: ADD- it is caused by a malfunctioning educational system NOT the kids. The best way to teach anything to kids is to let them do apprenticeships with masters in stuff that they are passionate about.
 

t.c.cgi

Vice Admiral
Bandit LOAF said:
So, then: is it the engine? Does Freespace just suck? Is this a case of two dedicated teams trying to do the same thing... and Saga running aground because all the open source in the world doesn't make it easy to force Freespace to be as good as Wing Commander? Are they struggling with figuring out how to add in an autopilot where Standoff didn't even need to give that process a second thought? Maybe that's the answer (they operate in secrecy, so we may never know... which you must chalk up to the bad PR campaign.)
I would say yes, myself. My first impression when I played the Freespace games was 'Wow, this is just like X-Wing.' That said, there are a lot of elements that don't match up with Wing Commander, and would just handle really strangely.
 

Bob McDob

Better Health Through Less Flavor
t.c.cgi said:
I would say yes, myself. My first impression when I played the Freespace games was 'Wow, this is just like X-Wing.'.
I have to disagree: Freespace certainly draws inspiration from the same flight sim roots of X-Wing (in its strict adherence to missions and almost total disengagement from cinematic storytelling), but in-game it handles very differently, and is quite obviously derived from the later Wing Commander games. When I played X-Wing I remember getting into high-speed WWII-esque dogfights with TIEs, where neither of us could get on the others tail long enough to pull the trigger - you won't find that same sort of immersion in single combat in "zillions of 'em! kill 'em all!" Freespace.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
meisdavidp said:
I thought you needed source codes to make mods? Did Origin somehow manage to slip the WC2 source past me? Then again, I don't know too much about modding.
That's the thing. EA does not release source code. There are no WC games with source code available. So that's part of what makes it so damned impressive that there have been these incredible Wing Commander game mods/patches/viewers/editors/etc over the years.

avisolo said:
Re: ADD- it is caused by a malfunctioning educational system NOT the kids. The best way to teach anything to kids is to let them do apprenticeships with masters in stuff that they are passionate about.
The education system is fine. It has to do with parents (not) acclimating their kids to a disciplined learning environment.
 

Romale

Spaceman
its funny y'all say that on my list it goes wc1>3>2>fs2>sec ops>fs1>prophecy, i really enjoyed the way fs2 was done and i did feel like a cog in the war machine, i thought the voice acting was incredible hell i still like to load fs2 and play it through just to here that one admiral talk to storyline
 

Manic

Spaceman
Had to read that one a few times to actually understand it...
Anyway. I consider FS2's voice acting as ok, it's the immersion (or lack thereof)that irks me. That, and the difficulty(or lack thereof).
 

meisdavidp

All your belief cannot absolve your sin.
I think FS2 suffers from chronic "not pushing the envelope far enough to really be good" The combat engine was quite intuitive... the story was pure hack. NO GAME IS PERFECT! WC3/4 come close, though.
 

wankski

Spaceman
wow, this is bizzare... reading thru this thread it's obvious i am unaware of this great big rift between loaf and the saga team, but this is totally shameful. The OP may have had valid points, but there is no question that it was done in an aggressive and antagonistic manner. Grow Up.

These guys haven't taken our money, and are doing a superlative job. I'm keenly awaiting saga b/c i think it looks to be the best mod going, but you know what, i'm thankful for every screenshot and movie that they actually have put out... When it eventually does come out, i'ld like to hear what the bellyachers have to say about the time commitment to the project that the saga team has. Jesus, damanding they step up their commitments to a hobby, THEIR hobby, is just plain crazy. Also you may want to consider the old adage, "Don't sh!t where you eat." :rolleyes:

As for the 1999 engine, i'm all for it. I think the saga team have made it look real good, and well, my PC is 5 years old, so it suits me fine. Not everyone invests a significant portion of money into a gaming PC every calender year.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
wow, this is bizzare... reading thru this thread it's obvious i am unaware of this great big rift between loaf and the saga team, but this is totally shameful.
I agree. We've said it before, we're saying it now and we'll say it the next time they do react to something in such a stupid manner... but the Saga team needs to clean up its act.

I'm keenly awaiting saga b/c i think it looks to be the best mod going
That's hard to claim, since Standoff actually exists.

When it eventually does come out, i'ld like to hear what the bellyachers have to say about the time commitment to the project that the saga team has.
The 'bellyachers' include the people who update this website every day... nothing Tolwyn and Psych come up with is going to shock us in terms of commitment.
 

wankski

Spaceman
Bandit LOAF said:
That's hard to claim, since Standoff actually exists.
sure, that why i said it looks to be..
Bandit LOAF said:
The 'bellyachers' include the people who update this website every day... nothing Tolwyn and Psych come up with is going to shock us in terms of commitment
Don't get me wrong, i really appreciate this place, and i personally owe you guys a fair bit, but ... I guess i thought we're all on the same side here... Anything that preserves WC has got to be a good thing.. even if it is just a few vids and pics of a fan-based mod. We all like space combat sims, WC in particular, and we want to support and sustain the genre, but we've been losing that battle. Game developers seem to prefer to pursue other genres at the moment.
Again, i'm mainly shocked because i assumed we were on the same team. Seems I was wrong. I'm also concerned with this age of "entitlement".. jeez, its a mod arising out of their collective hobbies... what right do we have to make demands? I've been waiting for years as well, but promises or no promises, its entirely their call if it comes out at all, let alone when. Btw, i dont want to appear to be taking sides, i'm not... I dont want in on this bad blood.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
It's not a case of entitlement at all. We already talked about it in this thread: for (quite literally) years, Saga followed everything Standoff did with some amazing announcement and the promise that a demo (or a "proloque"?) was almost ready. The point now is that clearly wasn't true -- they were faking results and lying about their release in order not to "lose face" to another mod... and that's idiotic. Under those circumstances, people certainly have a right to ask where Saga is -- because it's the Saga guys who promised it, not some assumption of entitlement on everyone elses part.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
When Saga updates on their progress, the other people should be asking, "Wheres Saga?"
 
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