this game, WC Saga, and the truth

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
They especially shouldn't be making it look like *I* closed the thread after ranting about asparagus syndrome.
 

Dyret

Super Carrot!
LOAF doesnt want to censor people because hey hate SAGA... And i think that's a great, but the guy that started it was acting like a complete moron(Ur aLl Stoopid aND ReTArdeD BeCUss U Dont MakE thA Mod fASt enuGH, TherEFOre U MuST hATE uz AlL, yA doMBazsEz I bEt Ur gAMe is IMaGInaRy). I have nothing against FleeBalls, he seems like a devoted fan, but that post was just... bizarre. There's alot of intelligent and just complaints about Saga in this thread, but most of them are also presented in other thread, so unless I've missed something, I think this thread has served I'ts purpose, If it ever had any.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
(Ur aLl Stoopid aND ReTArdeD BeCUss U Dont MakE thA Mod fASt enuGH, TherEFOre U MuST hATE uz AlL, yA doMBazsEz I bEt Ur gAMe is IMaGInaRy).
What the hell are you talking about? The original post is very reasonably stated... and it's grammar and style are fine -- it doesn't have any of the things you're trying to parody here.
 

Dyret

Super Carrot!
But most of the even remotely intelligent complaints about saga that we see in this thread are presented in several others as well, this one is just embarrasing. I can't see how FleeBalls' post is any better than Saga's own PDF explaination; even though he had one or two good points, the thing as a whole is pretty awful(You obviously hate us all, you havent released anything for a long time, AND YOUR MOD PROBALBY DOESNT EVEN EXIST!).
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
But most of the even remotely intelligent complaints about saga that we see in this thread are presented in several others as well, this one is just embarrasing. I can't see how FleeBalls' post is any better than Saga's own PDF explaination; even though he had one or two good points, the thing as a whole is pretty awful(You obviously hate us all, you havent released anything for a long time, AND YOUR MOD PROBALBY DOESNT EVEN EXIST!).
I would agree with those points, Saga is a terrible project trying, apparently in vain, to mod a terrible game. They certainly have no respect for the community - look at how they reply to... well, everything. The initial poster has every right to be frustrated - Saga has been promising great things since 2001. Even so, there's nothing at all wrong with the way he expressed himself... he made a reasonable argument without being crazy.

No amouint of you pretending to misspell words makes it so -- there's nothing at all like that in the thread-starter.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Bandit LOAF said:
Saga has been promising great things since 2001.
Heres to five years of absolutely nothing!

(Is it bad PR to be a really big jerk if your fanmod stinks in the first place?)
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
Well, now that the engine has been put into question, FS2 is not that more advanced than Prophecy, and if even it were, both of them are old by now. So wouldn't it make more sense to use the Vision engine for modding, or at least a new engine, like the Nexus one? Perhaps Saga made more sense in 2001, but right know it's getting a little late for using a 1999 engine.
 

Dyret

Super Carrot!
The open-source guys have done some amazing things to the engine. It's not really anything like the 1999 version anymore.

BTW, LOAF, I pm'ed you a reply to our "debate" earlier... I had some problem posting to this thread yesterday.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
Dyret said:
The open-source guys have done some amazing things to the engine. It's not really anything like the 1999 version anymore.
Neither is the vision engine. I don't know, for how long will be the 1999 engine a good choice for a mod?
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Delance said:
Neither is the vision engine. I don't know, for how long will be the 1999 engine a good choice for a mod?
About as long as a 1997 engine. What's your point, exactly? The Saga team consists of people who had no idea how to mod the Vision engine, but who knew how to mod the FS2 engine... so what engine did you expect them to use? It's a particularly weird question to ask after Saga's been in development for five years already. What's the point of discussing the advantages/disadvantages of the engine they're using when switching to another engine isn't possible without wasting many, many months converting everything to a new engine?
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
Quarto said:
About as long as a 1997 engine. What's your point, exactly?
My point simply was that the 1999 FS2 Engine was much newer than the 1997 Vision Engine in 2001, but right now that advantage has disapeeared. I don't have anything against the FS2 engine itself, or Saga, or whatever.
 

Manic

Spaceman
I must disagree on some points... the Freespace engine (or, rather, it's recent fan-made iterations) is not so technically awful as to prevent the production of a good mod, or one that looks dated. There are, I admit, some things that do need refining (specular lighting, etc.), but it is not a bad engine, and the open-source project is definitely leaps and bounds ahead of the original FS engine, or (god forbid I mention it) the Vision engine. It's been updated.

Don't get me wrong here, folks... I agree that Freespace and it's sequel were, in fact, horrible. The attempt to make the player feel he/she was a small cog in a big war machine failed, utterly, giving you zero immersion. There was simply no feelings drawn from it. I felt as though I were playing a game. Nothing more. This seems to be the trend, these days... a poorly scripted single-player campaign, written solely to get the player prepared for multiplayer.

This is a bad trend. One which saddens me.

The problem is, the multiplayer wasn't all that good, either. My mind drifts back to my days on PXO, where all that was required to win was to ram an opponent, disrupting his vector and opening up a brief window for me to unleash hell with rocket pods... not challenging. No skill required, at any rate. (not to say I wasn't a decent pilot. not the best, granted, but still, decent.)

To the Saga Team:
I hate to say it, but you guys have reviled yourselves to the CIC community a few too many times. Easiest way to do PR would be to answer a question or two a week, sarcasm-free, 100% professional, nothing too revealing... and not say a dang word otherwise regarding the project. Release a screenshot oh... once a week(or month). Just one. Doesn't even have to be anything fancy, just a gameplay shot of some random mission. Something to keep the tastebuds craving more. I've worked on projects before which were similar... they fell apart, but we did come up with a bit of a PR formula that kept us from looking like ol' Derek Smart to our fans(however few they may have been). Unfortunately, you boys haven't quite hit that sweet spot yet.

I'll even help... I have a question you can answer. What approach are you guys taking with the waypoint system of the Wing Commander Series? What of intersystem jumps? Landing sequences? The Alt+W system just doesn't seem as though it feels right for the WC universe....
 

PANI

Spaceman
I think the Saga-team is to busy with real life to take a stand on this threat.... or does anyone of the mod-team reacted/responded on any post....????
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
PANI said:
I think the Saga-team is to busy with real life to take a stand on this threat.... or does anyone of the mod-team reacted/responded on any post....????
Uh... yes, there was several pages of heated discussion between Saga team members and non-members. You really shouldn't jump into a thread like this without bothering to read it first.

Delance said:
My point simply was that the 1999 FS2 Engine was much newer than the 1997 Vision Engine in 2001, but right now that advantage has disapeeared. I don't have anything against the FS2 engine itself, or Saga, or whatever.
Right, but it doesn't make sense - you could just as well argue that Origin shouldn't have released a game using Vision in 1998, because the engine was already outdated... not having to switch to an all-new engine is a huge advantage in itself.
 

PANI

Spaceman
Quarto said:
Uh... yes, there was several pages of heated discussion between Saga team members and non-members. You really shouldn't jump into a thread like this without bothering to read it first.
oh... sry for that....

I thought Tolwyn is the "MOD-Team-Head" - i don't know other MOD-Members.... and i haven't read anything from him. :)
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
Quarto said:
Right, but it doesn't make sense - you could just as well argue that Origin shouldn't have released a game using Vision in 1998, because the engine was already outdated... not having to switch to an all-new engine is a huge advantage in itself.
No, because Origin always re-use their engines a couple of years later. They did that with WC2, WC4, WCSO, and, really, even with WC3 (because it was used before on Armada). But we are talking about a 7 year old engine here. That's about the same amount of time that separates WCP from WC1! If Origin were to re-use the 1990 WC1 Engine on a game on 1997, I would say that would be a bad idea.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Delance said:
No, because Origin always re-use their engines a couple of years later. They did that with WC2, WC4, WCSO, and, really, even with WC3 (because it was used before on Armada). But we are talking about a 7 year old engine here. That's about the same amount of time that separates WCP from WC1! If Origin were to re-use the 1990 WC1 Engine on a game on 1997, I would say that would be a bad idea.
Well, you do have to consider that seven years from 1990 to 1997 were, in terms of gaming technology, a far longer period than the nine years from 1997 up to now. You can see this easily just by looking at WCP - you'll find that it's aged far, far less than WC1 had by 1997.

In any case, none of this is relevant. The point is, if you switch engines mid-project, you end up having to rework massive parts of your project, which adds a given portion of time to the project's timespan. Additionally, the longer a project's timespan is, the longer the amount of time added to it as a consequence of such changes. That's why the big game developers generally try to develop games for computers that are still too expensive for the average user - because by the time the game is finished, it needs to still not be obsolete.

When it comes to mods, though, you don't have the option of choosing an engine that's not gonna be obsolete when you're done. So you choose based on entirely different criteria - ease of use, appropriateness for the mod, et cetera. And you can just imagine how much extra time you'd be adding to a five-year project by switching engines half-way through. So you really can't argue that the advantage the FS2 engine had in 1999 has now disappeared - the engine's advantage is simply the fact that Tolwyn & company know how to mod it.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Hehe, if you ask me, just the fact that you intend to mod anything at all means you've lost your senses... we all have :p.
 

meisdavidp

All your belief cannot absolve your sin.
I thought you needed source codes to make mods? Did Origin somehow manage to slip the WC2 source past me? Then again, I don't know too much about modding. The editor that came with Morrowind made me wet myself in terror.
 
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