Take out Sadaam?

Should we take out Saddam

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 64.9%
  • No

    Votes: 13 35.1%

  • Total voters
    37

Templar

Spaceman
If there is the slightest possibilty that a modren-day Hitler could aquire nuclear capability, then I say it time to intervene (and don't think he couldn't, considering the world the way it is, I'm suprised every dictator and his dog doesn't have a nuke). However, I think eliminiating him and installing a new goverment should be taken as the last resort. I would not support an invasion of Iraq if he were to let the UN inspectors in (but that ain't gonna happen).
 

Excelsis

Spaceman
Re: Re: Take out Sadaam?

Originally posted by Preacher
Take 'im out?...Nah; I don't think he's our "type".

We're a manly bunch here in the US, and we like 'em to be gorgeous, slim & trim, lean & mean, with all the right curves in all the right places (if you know what we mean...), etc....
Saddam's too butt-ugly for us :D ...
Thank you for demonstarting the many functions of the phrase "Take out" No, I don't want to eat him for dinner either. (before you try that one too) :p
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Originally posted by Mad Hatter
You want to tell me you actually believe that this 20 year old war is all about prisoners? Excuse me but that's pure BS. The 2 sheikhs we're holding prisoner without any criminal charge were taken captive well after soldiers of ours were taken captive by the Hezbolah and Amal. This whole war started because of attacks against civillians and diplomats inside and outside Israel. This is about territory.
You misunderstand me... of course this war wasn't about prisoners. It started because of the cross-border attacks by Palestinian terrorists. But Hezbollah was set up during the war, to liberate Lebanon, not Palestine. And that's already happened, right? Well, this is where the prisoners come in - they're not the reason this war was started, they're the reason it hasn't finished. And no, the prisoners Israel holds were not taken after your soldiers were captured - at least not the last group of soldiers they captured.

Believe me, if I thought releasing these people would bring back our soldiers, dead or alive, I'd be the first to demand it from our government.
Well, I don't get it - why don't you believe? You do realise that this wouldn't be the first prisoner exchange between Hezbollah and Israel, don't you? Even if you're right and it wouldn't stop the attacks, it is still the best - indeed, only - chance of getting those soldiers back.

Yes, they do. It hardly reaches the media because their shelling hasn't killed anyone yet. I guess these things don't reach Australia anymore.
Apparently, it doesn't reach Israel either - I don't rely on Australian coverage, I read the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, which I believe is a fairly sizeable newspaper. They have a somewhat left-wing attitude, but I doubt that would affect their coverage of Hezbollah activities.

Oh, and please don't use Britain as an example. Palestine was thousands of miles away from Britain, and our tactics were nowhere near as brutal as the Palestinians attacks against us today.
Your tactics weren't as brutal, but they were brutal. And the only reason I bring up Britain is to point out the foolishness of your government's policy of not negotiating under fire.
I'm glad to hear you don't support that policy, at least. I don't see how not trusting the Arabs back then justfies Israel's stance, though. If that was a valid reason not to negotiate then, then isn't not trusting Israel an equally valid reason today?

30 years of relative quiet? Don't make me laugh...
That's why I said 'relative'.
 

Mad Hatter

Spaceman
Originally posted by Quarto
You misunderstand me... of course this war wasn't about prisoners. It started because of the cross-border attacks by Palestinian terrorists. But Hezbollah was set up during the war, to liberate Lebanon, not Palestine. And that's already happened, right? Well, this is where the prisoners come in - they're not the reason this war was started, they're the reason it hasn't finished. And no, the prisoners Israel holds were not taken after your soldiers were captured - at least not the last group of soldiers they captured.
I was talking about the first group of prisoners. I know my History, thank you very much.

Originally posted by Quarto
Well, I don't get it - why don't you believe? You do realise that this wouldn't be the first prisoner exchange between Hezbollah and Israel, don't you? Even if you're right and it wouldn't stop the attacks, it is still the best - indeed, only - chance of getting those soldiers back.
Why? Because even after we withdrew from Lebanon, The Hezbollah looked desperatly for new reasons to attack us - The Shaba'a Farms, which aren't even Lebanese territory. It doesn't matter what we do, they'll always find new reasons to attack us.
They continue to claim it's about terrirtory, so why are you trying to explain that it isn't?

Originally posted by Quarto
Apparently, it doesn't reach Israel either - I don't rely on Australian coverage, I read the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, which I believe is a fairly sizeable newspaper. They have a somewhat left-wing attitude, but I doubt that would affect their coverage of Hezbollah activities.
I don't read Ha'aretz too often, but I do hear these things on the radio every couple days. Also, you'd be surprised how much the rivalry between our 2 biggest newspapers have created a lot of mis-information and lack of any at all as well.

Originally posted by Quarto
Your tactics weren't as brutal, but they were brutal. And the only reason I bring up Britain is to point out the foolishness of your government's policy of not negotiating under fire.
I'm glad to hear you don't support that policy, at least. I don't see how not trusting the Arabs back then justfies Israel's stance, though.
Well, since I do not support this policy, I tend to agree, but I don't think Britain is a very good example anyway. Just look at their continuing conflict with the IRA. I suppose that when it's that close to home - it's different than when it's thousands of miles away.

Not negotiating with the Arabs 30 years ago is one of our biggest mistakes, I agree. There is nothing to 'justify' here. It's a fact that we did not trust the arabs back then, nor do we trust them much today. It's very easy to sit in a country like Australia which hasn't a single border dispute (or a single border at all) with any other country, which doesn't get attacked every decade by another country (or a number of countries), and say that 'trust' or 'lack there of' is not a justifyable reason not to negotiate. Justifyable or not - it's still a reason.

Originally posted by Quarto
If that was a valid reason not to negotiate then, then isn't not trusting Israel an equally valid reason today?
I don't really understand what you're talking about. All of double-negatives have confused the hell out of me.

Originally posted by Quarto
That's why I said 'relative'.
Yes, and that's percisely why this is a moot point. I hope you never experience a single month of 'relative peace', as you put it, in your life.
You know what? I actually urge you to try and spend a month or two here in Israel. Experience the frightening feeling it is to board a bus and not be at all sure whether or not you'll be getting off it with both your arms and legs in the same zip code. Experience the joy of walking into a mall or a super-market or a fast food restaurant and being 'felt' and asked for an ID every time. Experience the thrill of trying to get in contact with family members or friends who were supposed to be hanging around exactly where a suicide bomber chose to detonate himself and not being able to because the rest of Israel is trying to do the exact same thing and the cellular phone companies have collapsed due to too many calls all at once.

When you've experienced that, you may speak of 'relative peace'.
 

Preacher

Swabbie
Banned
Re: Re: Re: Take out Sadaam?

Originally posted by Excelsis
... No, I don't want to eat him for dinner either. (before you try that one too) :p
::...can't...resist...tantalizing...opening... ::

...You can try eating his liver with some fava beans and a nice ChiAnti...FTHPTHPTHPTHPTHPTHPTHP!....
 

Excelsis

Spaceman
Re: Re: Re: Re: Take out Sadaam?

Originally posted by Preacher
::...can't...resist...tantalizing...opening... ::

...You can try eating his liver with some fava beans and a nice ChiAnti...FTHPTHPTHPTHPTHPTHPTHP!....
Seems like you have lots of experience in cannibalism... :p
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Originally posted by Mad Hatter
Why? Because even after we withdrew from Lebanon, The Hezbollah looked desperatly for new reasons to attack us - The Shaba'a Farms, which aren't even Lebanese territory. It doesn't matter what we do, they'll always find new reasons to attack us.
They continue to claim it's about terrirtory, so why are you trying to explain that it isn't?
Strictly speaking, the She'eba Farms are Lebanese territory, but that's besides the point. Of course the most extreme members of Hezbollah will always find reasons to attack Israel. My argument is that a vast majority of the Hezbollah movement does not want to keep fighting against Israel. The extremists are looking for a reason to keep fighting, but the moderates are looking for reasons to stop. In the same way that you as an Israeli probably wouldn't want to be identified with the settlers, it's unfair for you to identify all of Hezbollah with the extremists in it.

Well, since I do not support this policy, I tend to agree, but I don't think Britain is a very good example anyway. Just look at their continuing conflict with the IRA. I suppose that when it's that close to home - it's different than when it's thousands of miles away.
Yes, let's look at the conflict with the IRA. After a period of violence, Britain eventually made the painful decision to negotiate under fire. And look where it's got them - no matter how unstable the cease-fire deal is, the violence has virtually stopped. There are still extremist factions which claim that they will keep fighting, but they seem to concentrate on talking rather than actually doing anything. Lebanon is heading in that direction. Palestine could be too - in fact, it was, until Sharon's visit triggered all this.

Yes, and that's percisely why this is a moot point. I hope you never experience a single month of 'relative peace', as you put it, in your life. You know what? I actually urge you to try and spend a month or two here in Israel.
I know I'll never be able to fully understand what you're going through. And you know what? It doesn't matter. You urge me to spend a month or two in Israel? Well, I urge you to spend a month or two living as a Palestinian. You won't have to worry about being blown up, because with the curfew, you can't leave your home anyway. How about experiencing the thrill of being stopped at multiple checkpoints just trying to get to work, with searches and checks far tougher than what you experience? But never mind that - most Palestinians don't need to do that anymore, since they're under a nearly-permanent curfew anyway. And if you happen to live in the countryside, without the curfew... well, you don't need to bother going out into the fields anyway, since the settlers will be there, and the IDF ain't going to stop them.

You see, I may not fully understand what you're going through, but I do have a fair level of understanding of what both sides are going through.

Anyway, I don't think I'm going to carry this discussion on much longer. I don't see how either of us could change the other's mind about any of this... we'd have to swap places to do that, really.
 

Needaham45

Spaceman
Originally posted by Quarto
Anyway, I don't think I'm going to carry this discussion on much longer. I don't see how either of us could change the other's mind about any of this... we'd have to swap places to do that, really.
Good idea. This is a problem people on both sides have been trying to solve for decades.... there's no way any of us are going to solve it if they can't. Besides, as Quarto said... it's futile to argue further as no one is going to change thier mind.
 

Mad Hatter

Spaceman
OK, one last comment from me.
Would you just be so kind and explain to me how you come up with the idea that the majority of Hezbollah members do not want to continue fighting us? I mean, seriously, where did you hear or see any such claims? I'd be very interseted to see those sources.

As for the Shaba'a (or She'eba, or whatever), the UN clearly states that we have withdrawn from all Lebanese territory and that the Hezbollah have no legitimate claim on those lands. These are lands that we conquered from Syria, and that's a different issue.

As for Britain vs. IRA, remember it took them decades to agree to negotiate under fire, until they finally did. This Intifada has lasted "only" 2 years so far, and since I stated I do not support this policy, I really don't see why you continue to argue with me on this, it's not as if I have much control over what my government choses to do.

Sharon's visit triggered all this, huh? well you're right about one thing, he was the trigger, meaning the Palestinians were just waiting for an excuse to start this mess, even though just a week before we had offered them 95% of the land. We have documents captured in Ramalla during the "Homat Magen" campaign, or even before that, proving that the Palestinians planned this months before Sharon planned his visit to the "Temple mount".

You say you have a fair understanding of both sides, but you really don't understand much. Some of the 'experiences' you described the Palestinians go through, are very similar to what we go through. Every time there are intel. reports of a suicide bomber trying to reach our major cities the traffic jams caused by random checkpoints trying to locate or deter these terrorists range for miles, and I do know what it feels like to be felt and checked for weapons or bombs wherever I go, because this is what it's like to live here for the last couple of years.

Yes, the Palestinians suffer, greatly, but frankly, they have brought this upon themselves, and I don't think that from where you're sitting, you have a very clear view of what's going on.
You maybe an expert on history of the Middle East, but from what I read in your posts, your knowledge of what's going on here these days is the same as any other person who has nothing to do with this conflict.
You, my friend, have been brain-washed by anti-Israeli newspapers, Internet news and TV news networks, or maybe even Palastinian propoganda, the same as any other sucker willing to fall for it.

Anyway, I want to tell you I have enjoyed this discussion, it's been very stimulating and I learned one very important thing:
It's a lot harder to sell your side to someone who knows a lot about what's going on (or at least - thinks he does) than to sell it to a person totally ignorant of the situation, who's been brainwashed by a bit of propoganda.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Last comments from me too:

With Hezbollah, I have no proof that most of them don't want to continue fighting. What I do have is knowledge of what has happened elsewhere in the world, Ireland being just one example. Generally speaking, most people don't want to fight, unless they have a very, very good reason to. I know this will sound rather nebulous to you, but what can I say? I'm an optimist.

It certainly has been an interesting discussion, though. It's funny how people can want the same thing and still disagree about how to get there. Don't assume I've been brainwashed by anything, however - your view is hardly very balanced either. I really do want your country to reach peace, though. I'm just worried that if people like Sharon (and indeed, Arafat) stay in charge, that simply won't happen.
 

Mad Hatter

Spaceman
Originally posted by Quarto
Last comments from me too:

I really do want your country to reach peace, though. I'm just worried that if people like Sharon (and indeed, Arafat) stay in charge, that simply won't happen.
Well, for once, we agree on something..
 

Phillip Tanaka

Swabbie
Banned
I was going to write a long series of posts on this topic, because some of it is really good. But I've been having a guilty concience in regard to war and killing as of late. No, that's not the right way to phrase it. I'm getting tired of all this talk on the issue. I think perhaps we should wait until war is official before we start worrying about whether it's for the oil or not, or whether the war will bring about the world's end or not. In the meantime, I am glad to say that we have been stopping the many terrorist incidents that have occured, and hope that we remain ever vigilant to prevent promised further attacks.
 
No matter how good our security system is there is going to be a loop hole somewhere for terroeist to exploit. And personaly I would like to see Sadaam removed from power but not at the expense of thousands of American soldiers. I'm glad I live in the U.S. but I am tired of our elected officails butting into world affairs. They have got to stop seeing us as the worlds police force. I don't mind having some ambasador or something try to make a peace deal but having to send American troops to scattered hotspots throughout the world is ridiculous. It's like "Look at us. We're the United States of American. Mess with us and we'll wipe you out." Enough is enough.
 

Ender

Spaceman
Well if "Take him out," means drops a daisy cutter on him-maybe, depends on how many civies are around.

I'd really like to see the mofo arrested, his regime torn apart, then, when there's a new leadership in Iraq-return him to stand trial. He killed his own people, he should answer to them.

Now if he resisted arrest and went for a gun-well, our guys have to defend themselves right?

I just don't want to see one dictator taken out just to have another installed. This has happened far too many times already.
 

Stryker

Spaceman
Originally posted by Ender
I just don't want to see one dictator taken out just to have another installed. This has happened far too many times already.
Yeah I don't think alot of people realize that, everyone that talks about it that I know eather says that putting are guys at resk isn't worth it or that we should go there and take him out. Also the risk of another dictator coming into power wouldn't be that hard. Look how Sadaam got into power, from are support and weaponary we gave me decades ago.
 
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