Take out Sadaam?

Should we take out Saddam

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 64.9%
  • No

    Votes: 13 35.1%

  • Total voters
    37
Originally posted by Quarto

Anyway, I'm going to explain a bit about my point of view, so that you can understand my thinking. I'm Polish. Over the last 200 years, Poland's had about 30-40 years of freedom from foreign countries. Resisting foreign occupation is a concept ingrained into the Polish mentality practically from birth. Thus, I can understand why somebody would attack civilians in order to attain freedom. I do think it's immoral, but I acknowledge their right to do so. I do not consider them terrorists, because if targetting civilians makes you a terrorist, then all wars are fought between terrorists.

You do consider them terrorists, but you come from a different value system - when was the last time Argentina was under foreign control? If Argentina ever was occupied, though, you'd switch over to my value system pretty quickly.

Then it´s a fault in your educational system ,i can understand your point, but it doesn´t make it more valid or not.
As i said they can attack military bases.
Yes surely i come from a different value system, my parents and teachers taught me to respect the life and the other´s rights.

But that is the problem of them too, they children are educated with the thought that Israel ocupies all the territories of them since 1948. as you can see in every Palestine map.

BTW you are right about Hamas, i confuse it because of the weapon cargo from Iran, disrupted by the IDF, they launch their attacks from the Gaza strip and the West Bank.
 
Originally posted by Quarto
Furthermore, there is nothing to justify the connection you make between "they're Palestinians" and "they fight to eliminate every Jew in Israel".

Then you are so naive, Israel doesn´t hold any Lebanese territory
then why they attack Israel?
As i wrote to Needaham below, is better if they fight the Syrians the truly invaders of their land.


Originally posted by Quarto

Sorry, I actually didn't notice that "in Israel" bit. Doesn't make much of a difference, though. Like I said, I think killing civilians is immoral, but I also think that it is justified in some situations. For the Lebanese, this was the case - living under occupation seems like a perfectly fair reason to target enemy civilians. The AMIA attack is a more ambiguous case, of course, but so was a certain factory in Sudan.

I don´t see what is the ambigous thing about the AMIA, and how it have some relation with the factory in Sudan, AFAIK Argentina didn´t attacked Sudan or Lebanon. so there is no reason to attack here.
So if Poland is invaded by Rusia, you will bomb the *Friendly Mutual Asociation of Rusian and Nicaraguenses* in Nicaragua?


Originally posted by Quarto

And yes, they have launched several rocket attacks lately, but they were from Gaza, and there were no Katyushas involved, just small home-made rockets.

The Katyushas are used in the north, i never said that they were launched from Gaza, and thanks God that they use home made rockets, surely those rockets don´t harm anybody :rolleyes:
they use rockets what is the difference....some are home made, the others aren´t, they kill people.

here you have some extracts from THE CHARTER OF ALLAH: THE PLATFORM OF THE ISLAMIC RESISTANCE MOVEMENT (HAMAS)
_"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it
as it had eliminated its predecessors."
The Imam and Martyr Hassan al-Banna.

_Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish
population, defies Islam and the Muslims.

Hamas Chart

And this from Hizbollah Official site.

_´´Because Hezbollah’s ideological ideals sees no legitimacy for the existence of “Israel” a matter that elevates the contradictions to the level of existence. ´´

Hizbollah Official Site

Is worthy to note that all the internal links work except the *occupied zone* one....why?
And as you can see in those sites there is more than *We fight because Isreal took some Lebanese or Palestinian territory*
They fight to erase Israel from the map.
 
The conflict will be resolved when one side's use of force wipes out the other side. Until then, there will be violence in the middle east. My money is on Isreal to be the last one standing.
 
The conflict will be resolved when one side's use of force wipes out the other side. Until then, there




I DISAGREE.

When one side use force, there will always be pain and suffering cause by that force. And such experience can lead to a formation of victimize people, who held grudges and wants to avenge back.

And if those people in the future get hold of something more powerful than the Victor's...

It just repeat again.
 
Originally posted by Ghost
_Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish
population, defies Islam and the Muslims.

This is only believed by the crazy people in terrorist organizations. Your average Muslim has no problem with the Jewish religion. The crazy ones make it look bad for all... and I hate that.

Just because there are a few crazy people doesn't make the whole group bad. Look at Timothy McViegh (I have no idea how to spell that)... just because of him are all American's bad?

And as to the comment made before about the US and UN... the UN depends on the US for peace keeping because the UN can't do it themselves. I'm not saying the US SHOULD be in this possition... I'm annoyed that the UN and rest of the world have put them in that position.
 
Originally posted by Needaham45
This is only believed by the crazy people in terrorist organizations. Your average Muslim has no problem with the Jewish religion. The crazy ones make it look bad for all... and I hate that.

Of course not, the regular muslim-palestinian-arab don´t think that, but sadly the ones that make the attacks (as you said) are those freaks that think that about the jews and Israel.
The bad thing is that the terrorists (as i posted earlier) hide among the civilians .that makes very dificult to search and arrest them for the IDF, the problem surely will be easily solved if Arafat makes something to stop them and to punish them, but many of Arafat key-supporters are members of those organizations. (including the *official party* Al-Fatah*)
 
I think Arafat is basically powerless. I don't want to argue about whether he wants to stop the terrorists or not (I personally think he does... but we don't really know... we're not him and there's no sense in arguing it... we're going to believe different things and there's no proof as to any of them). So for now... hypothetically, we'll say he wants to stop the terrorists. He simply can't. Israel has destroyed basically all of the Police Stations, Jails, etc. The Palistian police force is basically non-exist. Quite an interesting situation.... Israel demands they stop the terrorists, then destroyed a Police station. Without a working security force it's hard for Arafat to stop anything.

I still think Arafat is the best leader the Palistinians have ever had. Can you honestly think of someone else who would be better? The people over there like him and respect him, and I think he's been making more steps toward peace than any of his predesesors. He's not great, but he's the best man for the job right now, even if he doesn't have much power.
 
Originally posted by TheFraix
I DISAGREE.

When one side use force, there will always be pain and suffering cause (blah blah blah) the future get hold of something more powerful than the Victor's...

It just repeat again.

Yeah, Germany, Italy, and Japan are just stewing for over 50 years waiting to nuke the U.S.

Take a look at history. There is no Confederate States of America. No South Vietnam. No Rhodesia. No Soviet Union. The loser goes away, or learns to get along. The pacifist way is to have a tank roll over your butt.
 
Originally posted by Needaham45
I think Arafat is basically powerless. I don't want to argue about whether he wants to stop the terrorists or not (I personally think he does... but we don't really know... we're not him and there's no sense in arguing it... we're going to believe different things and there's no proof as to any of them). So for now... hypothetically, we'll say he wants to stop the terrorists. He simply can't. Israel has destroyed basically all of the Police Stations, Jails, etc. The Palistian police force is basically non-exist. Quite an interesting situation.... Israel demands they stop the terrorists, then destroyed a Police station. Without a working security force it's hard for Arafat to stop anything.

True, but the Palestinian Police didn´t made anything, just catch one or two terrorists *for the cameras* and to appease minimally the wrath of Israel.

Originally posted by Needaham45

I still think Arafat is the best leader the Palistinians have ever had. Can you honestly think of someone else who would be better? The people over there like him and respect him, and I think he's been making more steps toward peace than any of his predesesors. He's not great, but he's the best man for the job right now, even if he doesn't have much power.

The keyword is had , he doesn´t have the credibility with Israel., and as you said he doesn´t have power, you don´t expect that he will lead the PNA forever, the PNA need a guy with power enough to fulfill the Oslo Pact and to put an end to the terrorist attacks.
 
Originally posted by Ghost
Then it´s a fault in your educational system ,i can understand your point, but it doesn´t make it more valid or not.
Yes surely i come from a different value system, my parents and teachers taught me to respect the life and the other´s rights.
Oh, I have been taught to respect others' lives and rights - but only if they respect mine :). As for the educational system, yes, you could call that a fault - but is the fault in my system, or in yours?

Then you are so naive, Israel doesn´t hold any Lebanese territory then why they attack Israel? As i wrote to Needaham below, is better if they fight the Syrians the truly invaders of their land.
I didn't say Israel holds Lebanese territory - but I did say that it holds Lebanese prisoners. I also said that since the withdrawal, Hezbollah has considerably scaled down its attacks. So what exactly is your point? Yes, Palestinians continue to serve Hezbollah now. What are they supposed to do, go home? They're refugees.
As for Syria, the Lebanese have been through almost 30 years of civil war. They hate the Syrians, but they cannot afford a violent confrontation, for fear that the civil war will return. They do, however, speak out against Syrian occupation, and the Syrians' withdrawal is just a matter of time.

I don´t see what is the ambigous thing about the AMIA, and how it have some relation with the factory in Sudan, AFAIK Argentina didn´t attacked Sudan or Lebanon. so there is no reason to attack here.
So if Poland is invaded by Rusia, you will bomb the *Friendly Mutual Asociation of Rusian and Nicaraguenses* in Nicaragua?
If that's what it took... yes, I would. If a country aids my oppressors, then that country is oppressing me too.
As for the factory in Sudan, it was a reference to the Americans' actions after the embassy bombings in 1998. Without bothering to prove any sort of link between Al Qaida and the factory in question, they simply bombed the factory. By your standards, that would make them terrorists.

thanks God that they use home made rockets, surely those rockets don´t harm anybody :rolleyes: they use rockets what is the difference....some are home made, the others aren´t, they kill people.
The difference is scale. A bullet is not the same as a nuclear bomb, wouldn't you agree? The rockets they use do a lot less damage than the bombs Israel responds with. This is not an attempt to defend their actions, though. I do not defend Hamas, since (unlike Hezbollah) they have contributed more to continuing the occupation than ending it.

And this from Hizbollah Official site.
_´´Because Hezbollah’s ideological ideals sees no legitimacy for the existence of “Israel” a matter that elevates the contradictions to the level of existence. ´´
I've seen the Hezbollah site before... and they seem to have toned down their rhetoric considerably since then. Notice that Hassan Nasrallah's speeches refer to Israel and Israelis directly - that's a signal of recognition. If Lebanon was ever to recognise Israel (which they will, after Syria does), they would too.
Other facts to note - their introduction page talks about resistence and fighting in past tense.
When it comes to the present, the emphasis is on Hezbollah's peaceful political activies in Lebanon. The (rather outdated) activities page mentions that recent (circa May 2000) shelling of "Zionist settlements" was a response to attacks on civilians. And, in various news articles on the press page, the emphasis seems to be on Israel's violations of UN resolutions rather than Israel's existence.

Is worthy to note that all the internal links work except the *occupied zone* one....why?
Wow, good question... it must be some sort of conspiracy!
But no. The occupied zone link doesn't work, while other links (issues, hostages & wounded) lead to blank pages. The activities page is outdated. It seems the site is simply in need of maintenance :).
 
Originally posted by Quarto
A bullet is not the same as a nuclear bomb, wouldn't you agree?

Ah! But what if it's an incredibly large, fast bullet... or a very very small nuclear bomb!
 
The (rather outdated) activities page mentions that recent (circa May 2000) shelling of "Zionist settlements" was a response to attacks on civilians. And, in various news articles on the press page, the emphasis seems to be on Israel's violations of UN resolutions rather than Israel's existence.

Yeah! Of *course* they're a wonderful and noble and not at all horrible organization! They haven't attacked civilians for *two years*! And it was okay, because they decided the UN might agree with them!
 
Originally posted by Quarto

If that's what it took... yes, I would. If a country aids my oppressors, then that country is oppressing me too.

Argentina didn´t helped Israel, they bombed here because was/is easy, they just wanted to kill jews (Argentine jews and Argentine christians), nothing more, an act of terrorism. because that is what they are. they attack anywere and everyone.

Originally posted by Quarto
The difference is scale. A bullet is not the same as a nuclear bomb, wouldn't you agree? The rockets they use do a lot less damage than the bombs Israel responds with. This is not an attempt to defend their actions, though. I do not defend Hamas, since (unlike Hezbollah) they have contributed more to continuing the occupation than ending it.


Yesterday night i saw a documental in People+Arts with a terrorist *engineer* from the Islamic Jihad.
You should see how proud he was a about his new rocket, 200 Kg TNT and *um-al abad* (some explosive sustance) and a mortar head, that rocket according him can destroy a tank and burn up to 2200 *C sufficient to melt the tank, and various explosives belts.
as i said they use guns (pistols,Ak-47,M-16),rockets and bombs, what do you expect, that Israel answers that with woodensticks and sheields?
Nuclear Bomb....Don´t be stupid.


Originally posted by Quarto
Syrians' withdrawal is just a matter of time.


No.
Or maybe Yes, And Syria will become a true democracy!

Originally posted by Quarto

I've seen the Hezbollah site before... and they seem to have toned down their rhetoric considerably since then. Notice that Hassan Nasrallah's speeches refer to Israel and Israelis directly - that's a signal of recognition

What do you expect that they call us pigs, filthy jews or something else...:rolleyes: he fight against Israel he knows that Israel and the jews exist, but he don´t like it.

Originally posted by Quarto

If Lebanon was ever to recognise Israel (which they will, after Syria does), they would too.

No they wouldn´t, they hate jews they hate Israel (is stated as a fact) no matter who rules Lebanon.

Originally posted by Quarto
Other facts to note - their introduction page talks about resistence and fighting in past tense.
When it comes to the present, the emphasis is on Hezbollah's peaceful political activies in Lebanon. The (rather outdated) activities page mentions that recent (circa May 2000) shelling of "Zionist settlements" was a response to attacks on civilians. And, in various news articles on the press page, the emphasis seems to be on Israel's violations of UN resolutions rather than Israel's existence.

Don´t be stupid, don´t come with stupid things like past tense,etc, they still fight and kill people if those things work on you...well good for you!


Originally posted by Quarto

The emphasis seems to be on Israel's violations of UN resolutions rather than Israel's existence.

And that does´t mean that they aren´t against the existence of Israel and jews in Israel.


Originally posted by Quarto

Wow, good question... it must be some sort of conspiracy!
But no. The occupied zone link doesn't work, while other links (issues, hostages & wounded) lead to blank pages. The activities page is outdated. It seems the site is simply in need of maintenance :).

Emhhh...You expect a serious answer to that?
:rolleyes: surely the guy who was in charge of the updates was killed in a raid by Israel Evil Force or just killed when trying to detonate a bus.
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
And it was okay, because they decided the UN might agree with them!
And now it's ok for USA to overthrow a nation using a similar excuse? I'm not saying Hizbollah/Hamas - or whatever group it was about - are better, but don't use USA as a paradigm for human values (from politicians, anyway). *Cough* Allende *cough*.
I could say more, but others (mainly Quarto) have covered my opinion in better ways than I could, so... *Strides elsewhere*
 
And now it's ok for USA to overthrow a nation using a similar excuse? I'm not saying Hizbollah/Hamas - or whatever group it was about - are better, but don't use USA as a paradigm for human values (from politicians, anyway). *Cough* Allende *cough*.
I could say more, but others (mainly Quarto) have covered my opinion in better ways than I could, so... *Strides elsewhere*

Wow, trolling. How does what the US does or does not (and thus far has not, mind you...) do/done have an bearing on whether or not it's okay for some Quarto organization to bomb civilians?
 
Originally posted by Ghost
No they wouldn´t, they hate jews they hate Israel (is stated as a fact) no matter who rules Lebanon.

Yes, they hate Israel... why?

1. Israel occupied thier territory

2. Israel has not agreed to any dimplomacy

3. Israel has bombed targets, including the capital, Beruit

4. Israel constantly flies mock bombing runs over Lebanon to scare the people.

5. Israel has ignored UN resolutions

Lebanon has every right to hate Israel. As to Lebanon hating Jews... to quote... "don't be stupid"
 
Originally posted by Needaham45
Yes, they hate Israel... why?

1. Israel occupied thier territory

2. Israel has not agreed to any dimplomacy

3. Israel has bombed targets, including the capital, Beruit

4. Israel constantly flies mock bombing runs over Lebanon to scare the people.

5. Israel has ignored UN resolutions

Lebanon has every right to hate Israel. As to Lebanon hating Jews... to quote... "don't be stupid"


1. Of course Israel had the necesity of a buffer zone to prevent the terrorists to enter Israel from Lebanon, and to quote Shaddam IV to Baron Harkonnen *Your lack of action called me here*

2. explain *diplomacy*, Syria rules Lebanon, they (Syria and Lebanon) don´t want to make the peace with Israel.

3. Isn´t Israel fault that Lebanon allowed Arafat to move his HQ to Beirut, and thus allowing the terrorist to live in Lebanon.
Israel just defend itself by killing terrorist who attack Israel and it´s population.

4. Wrong again, they don´t fly and bomb runs to scare people, they fly and make bomb runs to kill terrorists.


5. Possibly, but i didn´t heard that Lebanon,Syria or the one who has the authority to stop the attacks did something too.
Even more they are encouraged to do so.

and *don´t be stupid* about what?, please explain. you express in a matter that i can´t understand.
 
Originally posted by Ghost
Argentina didn´t helped Israel, they bombed here because was/is easy, they just wanted to kill jews (Argentine jews and Argentine christians), nothing more, an act of terrorism.
Argentina didn't, but the organisation in question did.

You should see how proud he was a about his new rocket, 200 Kg TNT, that rocket according him can destroy a tank and burn up to 2200 *C sufficient to melt the tank. what do you expect, that Israel answers that with woodensticks and sheields?
Nuclear Bomb....Don´t be stupid.
If you think the analogy is stupid, perhaps you simply don't understand it. Anyway, while I don't doubt that they are constantly improving their weapons, I don't think you need to believe them when they say they can melt a tank. The Israeli Merkava tank is amongst the best-armoured in the world.
Oh, and what I expect from Israel is to plan their attacks more carefully. I am not saying they should fight with sticks and shields, but if they know dropping a bomb will cause civilian casualties, and there are other options available which will do the job just as well...

No. Or maybe Yes, And Syria will become a true democracy!
Heh, nobody expected the USSR to collapse either.

No they wouldn´t, they hate jews they hate Israel (is stated as a fact) no matter who rules Lebanon.
Oh, for crying out loud. That claim is about as stupid as claiming that America hates Muslims. They do *not* hate Jews. Yes, they hate Israel, but you could hardly expect them to love it. Back in 1978, everybody was saying that all Arabs hate Israel... and then Egypt signed a peace treaty. I can assure you that the only reason Lebanon (and by extension, Hezbollah, who wouldn't sign a treaty but would respect Lebanon's treaty) has not negotiated a treaty with Israel is because Syria still hasn't. And Syria still hasn't because they want all their land back, while Israel only offered them a part of it in the 1999-2000 negotiations.

Don´t be stupid, don´t come with stupid things like past tense,etc, they still fight and kill people if those things work on you...well good for you!
I'm being stupid? You're the one telling me bullshit even after I've already explained to you that it's not true. To repeat myself - I don't even remember the last time Ha'aretz mentioned a Hezbollah attack.

Emhhh...You expect a serious answer to that?
:rolleyes: surely the guy who was in charge of the updates was killed in a raid by Israel Evil Force or just killed when trying to detonate a bus.
Heh, my point was that you're giving some sort of crazy conspiracy-importance to the fact that there's a link missing, on a site which clearly has more problems than just a missing link. Quite honestly, I don't understand what you think the lack of a link could mean anyway...
 
Originally posted by Quarto
Argentina didn't, but the organisation in question did.

What the fuck are you talking about?, are you insane? do you know what that association did/does or didn´t?
You know what is the purpose of that asociation? have you proofs?, do you know about what are you talking?
Or you are the kind of people that think: *If they were bombed it was for a reason surely they deserved it*.
At least bring some proof.


Originally posted by Quarto

If you think the analogy is stupid, perhaps you simply don't understand it. Anyway, while I don't doubt that they are constantly improving their weapons, I don't think you need to believe them when they say they can melt a tank. The Israeli Merkava tank is amongst the best-armoured in the world.
Oh, and what I expect from Israel is to plan their attacks more carefully. I am not saying they should fight with sticks and shields, but if they know dropping a bomb will cause civilian casualties, and there are other options available which will do the job just as well...


Yes, shame on Israel, they must let to be wiped from the planet.
Of course is nobody faul that the terrorist hide between the civilians, poor terrorist, they just want to enter to Allah´s paradise with those 70 virgins.
And your suggestions are to send a SEAL or another team class to wipe them and increase the possibility of more deaths for Israel, good strategy General!
The bombing is the easiest way and the safest for Isreali soldiers.

Originally posted by Quarto

Heh, nobody expected the USSR to collapse either.

Heh, nobody expected Israel to survive after the Independence War, tell that to the Arabs who started the war and all of this problem.


Originally posted by Quarto
.
Heh, my point was that you're giving some sort of crazy conspiracy-importance to the fact that there's a link missing, on a site which clearly has more problems than just a missing link. Quite honestly, I don't understand what you think the lack of a link could mean anyway...

No ,the point is that they don´t have nothing to show.
 
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