Space sim games (SW Episode II Spoilers)

[Mav23]

someone said something earlier about not having seen the original trilogy in about a year. Get this, since I saw Episode 1 (on the first day) I have vowed not to watch any of the original trilogy until I own them all on DVD and watch them all in a row (starting with Ep. 1). The reasoning behind this? I burned myself out with the original/special editions of the original trilogy to the point where I didn't even have to watch them for I had memorized nearly every line. Therefore, I won't watch them again until I can watch them in order.


edit: sweet, i got the 200th post! (Don't know why that's cool, it just is)

 

[LeHah]

Originally posted by Penguin
Anyway following that reasoning, by enhancing his speed and agility Yoda was showing that Dooku still had a long way to go in terms of the mastery of the Force.

One could also reason that Dooku was as good as Yoda with a lightsaber. Neither of them hit the other and no matter how fast or agile Yoda was, Dooku matched him swing for swing.

Of note, Dooku is not just a wandering Jedi, he's trying to master both the light and dark sides to gain better understanding of the Force. Technically, Dooku isn't really a villian, just someone with some questions about his theology.

 

[Penguin]

Originally posted by Wedge009
Episode II? There were Aussies too!

Heh there were Kiwis too. Though do I do find this "let's jump on the badwagon because our actors are in it" mentality a bit disturbing. I mean does it really matter whether Russell Crowe is a New Zealander or an Australian?

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
I still think the model-based space battles are just as cool/cooler than the CGI ones, though...

I will second that!

Originally posted by Quarto
The one that really struck me as hideously bad was the weird garden-dwarf-like thing that co-pilots for Lando in The Return of the Jedi.

Well if he saw you he might think the same way

LeHah: I think its clear that Dooku is in better physical condition than Yoda is (the walking stick, the scene where Yoda's sitting on a fly saucer type thing, while Dooku needs no such aids). Therefore if Dooku could use the Force to achieve the radical increase in speed and agility that Yoda had - well Yoda would've met an honorable end that day.

As for your last point - if Dooku wants to expand his knowledge of the Force that's all well and good. But when he starts plotting with a Dark Lord of the Sith to overthrow the existing political order that tips him into the realm of treachery. As Mace Windu said the Jedi are the upholders of the peace - Dooku's doing the opposite, which means that he's betraying his Jedi principles. His actions make his villainy clear.

 

[LeHah]

Originally posted by Penguin
I think its clear that Dooku is in better physical condition than Yoda is (the walking stick, the scene where Yoda's sitting on a fly saucer type thing, while Dooku needs no such aids). Therefore if Dooku could use the Force to achieve the radical increase in speed and agility that Yoda had - well Yoda would've met an honorable end that day.

A good point... until you realize Dooku faught Yoda to a stalemate without jumping around and spinning and moving like a bat out of hell. Dooku just matched him, shot for shot, without using any type of Force Speed or something.

As Mace Windu said the Jedi are the upholders of the peace - Dooku's doing the opposite, which means that he's betraying his Jedi principles. His actions make his villainy clear.

On that thought, I strongly suggest reading

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/movies/dismantling_jedi_order_000418.html

It shows the apparent theological rotting going on within the Jedi Council in great detail. What's worse: A single man fighting for a cause he believes in, no matter how evil it is or an order of self-rightous religious zealots who are afraid of letting power slip out of their fingers?

 

[Frosty]

Originally posted by LeHah
A good point... until you realize Dooku faught Yoda to a stalemate without jumping around and spinning and moving like a bat out of hell. Dooku just matched him, shot for shot, without using any type of Force Speed or something.

That's silly, Dooku ran away when he got the chance.

By your estimation, Jango Fett is also Obi-Wan's equal, though we know that to be untrue.

 

[I'm thinkin...]

Originally posted by Penguin

I think its clear that Dooku is in better physical condition than Yoda is (the walking stick, the scene where Yoda's sitting on a fly saucer type thing, while Dooku needs no such aids). Therefore if Dooku could use the Force to achieve the radical increase in speed and agility that Yoda had - well Yoda would've met an honorable end that day.

Yoda is nearly 900 years old. How old is Dooku? And in 900 years Yoda has complete mastery of the Force. Otherwise why would Dooku run away. The only explanation for that is because he knew he could not beat Yoda using lightsabers or the control of the Force.

 

[Penguin]

LeHah & I'm thinkin... Why are you arguing with me on the first point when it seems like we're in agreement? Dooku was matching Yoda blow for blow - that's why I said that if Dooku could use the Force to enhance his physical ability (by which I mean not dueling skills, but speed like Yoda did) he would probably have defeated Yoda. By doing something Dooku could not, Yoda displayed superior mastery, possibly causing Dooku's flight. Remember that other Republican forces (presumably including other Jedi) were enroute to Dooku's lair. Also I doubt that Yoda has complete mastery of the Force - if he did then he'd have rooted Darth Sidious out long ago. A real world analogy would be a Catholic priest claiming he knows exactly what God wants, when this is obviously impossible.

LeHah's last point This has to be put into context. From the Jedi point of view Dooku has clearly betrayed them. He plots against the Republic. He orders the execution of a Jedi. The scheme that he is cooking up with Darth Sidious has provoked a war involving thousands of systems - the impact of his actions will be massive and largely negative since I fail to see how provoking a civil war of this kind can be beneficial for anyone except the arms dealers. This was all done for Darth Sidious' grand scheme - a selfish desire. Therefore I think that it is clear that by any objective measure Count Dooku, formerly of the Jedi, is a villain.

Secondly the assertion that the Jedi are corrupt has no relevance to the above, regardless of whether or not it is true. If I commit a crime and then I am arrested by a crooked cop, how does the cop's infidelity vindicate my action? If the United States government can be categorically proven to have failed in its duty to the citizens of the United States, does this void the Constitution, rendering its principles inapplicable?

 

[redwolf]

Kiwi stormtroopers?

on a lighter note...

(Stormtrooper to fellow stormtrooper)
Eh bro, lits go down to the fush und chup shop

 

[I'm thinkin...]

Originally posted by Penguin
LeHah & I'm thinkin... Why are you arguing with me on the first point when it seems like we're in agreement? Dooku was matching Yoda blow for blow - that's why I said that if Dooku could use the Force to enhance his physical ability (by which I mean not dueling skills, but speed like Yoda did) he would probably have defeated Yoda. By doing something Dooku could not, Yoda displayed superior mastery, possibly causing Dooku's flight. Remember that other Republican forces (presumably including other Jedi) were enroute to Dooku's lair. Also I doubt that Yoda has complete mastery of the Force - if he did then he'd have rooted Darth Sidious out long ago. A real world analogy would be a Catholic priest claiming he knows exactly what God wants, when this is obviously impossible.

Sorry guess I misinterpreted what you were getting at. To me it sounded like you were rooting for Dooku because he didn't use Force enhanced skills as Yoda did. Now that I think about it, Dooku probably didn't have the skills in using the Force to enhance his abilities. (As a side note, before the final cutting of the film Yoda did actually best Dooku but then Dooku caused the furnace pipe or whatever it was to fall, distracting Yoda and allowing Dooku to escape). As to finding Darth Sidious, the Dark side clouds everything and even Yoda with all his Force powers was perhaps unprepared for what Sidious is doing. And maybe Yoda does have some weaknesses.

 

[Penguin]

I'm thinkin...: Please keep in mind that when I said that Yoda used the Force to enhance his prowess, I'm hypothesizing.
Also I'd be very disturbed if Yoda really was flawless...

redwolf: I find the fact that you have a question mark next to WC in your profile disturbing...

 

[Manic]

Yoda kicks ass. 'Nuff said. Let's not overanalyze the thing.

 

[Mav23]

but over analyzing is fun!

 

[Wedge009]

Originally posted by Quarto
The one that really struck me as hideously bad was the weird garden-dwarf-like thing that co-pilots for Lando in The Return of the Jedi.

Nien Nunb (a Sullustan) wasn't bad. Apparently the lines he spoke were based on some obscure African tribe, and as a result the words sound like something incredibly rude or amusing or something.

Originally posted by Mav23
Someone said something earlier about not having seen the original trilogy in about a year.

That would be me.

Originally posted by Mav23
I burned myself out with the original/special editions of the original trilogy to the point where I didn't even have to watch them for I had memorized nearly every line.

That's probably the same for me (but not to such an extreme degree). Also, maybe after reading the novels (don't start arguing over them), I feel odd seeing Han and Leia fight over each other and Luke being such a Jedi newbie.

Originally posted by LeHah
One could also reason that Dooku was as good as Yoda with a lightsaber. Neither of them hit the other and no matter how fast or agile Yoda was, Dooku matched him swing for swing.

But you will admit that, without the Force, Dooku has a considerable physical advantage over Yoda, wouldn't you?

Originally posted by LeHah
Of note, Dooku is not just a wandering Jedi, he's trying to master both the light and dark sides to gain better understanding of the Force.

Where did you find this?

Plus I second what Penguin responded.

Originally posted by Penguin
Heh, there were Kiwis too. Though do I do find this "let's jump on the badwagon because our actors are in it" mentality a bit disturbing.

Oh, I was just pointing it out. Nothing wrong with a little patriotism is there? After all, we seemed to have American patriotism running thick through several movies.

Originally posted by LeHah
http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/movies/dismantling_jedi_order_000418.html

Interesting, but I think anyone can twist anything to suit their "certain point of view".

Originally posted by redwolf
(Stormtrooper to fellow stormtrooper)
Eh bro, lits go down to the fush und chup shop

Heh, heh. That's mean.

Originally posted by Penguin
Please keep in mind that when I said that Yoda used the Force to enhance his prowess, I'm hypothesizing. Also I'd be very disturbed if Yoda really was flawless...

I think it's unlikely Yoda is doing a similar thing, but Emperor Palpatine (in the original trilogy) also uses a walking cane, but only to give the impression that his weak, not because he really is.

 

[LeHah]

Originally posted by Frosty
That's silly, Dooku ran away when he got the chance.

Dooku has better things to do.

Originally Posted by Wedge009
But you will admit that, without the Force, Dooku has a considerable physical advantage over Yoda, wouldn't you?

Hard to say. I'm sure when a Jedi uses a lightsaber, he also enhances his strength against an opponent, but that's sterile conjecture. We really don't know how strong Yoda's species is.

Where did you find this?

Sadly, in a really crappy place: The Wizards Of The Coast Star Wars RPG handbook at my local comicbook store. The guide made me want to retch, though the pictures were pretty.

Originally Posted by Penguin
if Dooku could use the Force to enhance his physical ability (by which I mean not dueling skills, but speed like Yoda did) he would probably have defeated Yoda. By doing something Dooku could not, Yoda displayed superior mastery, possibly causing Dooku's flight.

Maybe Dooku didn't want to enhance his speed. Maybe he knew he could stalemate Yoda without it. Yes, he did run, but creating a galactic conspiracy to wage war takes up a man's time.

Originally Posted by Penguin
From the Jedi point of view Dooku has clearly betrayed them. He plots against the Republic. He orders the execution of a Jedi. The scheme that he is cooking up with Darth Sidious has provoked a war involving thousands of systems - the impact of his actions will be massive and largely negative since I fail to see how provoking a civil war of this kind can be beneficial for anyone except the arms dealers. This was all done for Darth Sidious' grand scheme - a selfish desire. Therefore I think that it is clear that by any objective measure Count Dooku, formerly of the Jedi, is a villain.

"He is a political idealist, not a murderer" I believe the quote is.

He is a villian to the Jedi Council, yes, but it seems that the Jedi have been corrupted. They take stands with political factions within the senate, and act only when it serves their purpose. No matter how evil or corrupt Palpatine is or will become, we as an audience know what will happen in the end. The council, on the other hand, will be extinguished not only because of the Sith, but their elite and pompous social caste. They said Anakin was too old to begin training and he fell... but then Luke was FAR older and became the one who brought balance.

Realize: The balance happened because the Council and the Republic were around for so damned long, it was bound to come apart. This lead to a dictatorship under the Empire and the Sith. Luke dashed in, redeemed his father and brought balance to everything. The Council and the Empire were both dead weight to society since they both did what they wanted when they wanted to their own advantages only.

Originally Posted by Frosty
By your estimation, Jango Fett is also Obi-Wan's equal, though we know that to be untrue.[/b]

How do you know this? Jango bested then escaped Obi-Wan during their landing platform fight. He was killed by Mace Windu, but christ, Mace is one bad Jedi mutherfucker.

 

[Frosty]

Originally posted by LeHah
Dooku has better things to do.

Poor excuse. Yoda was toying with him as a demonstration of his superiority. Dooku got the message and fled as soon as he got the chance.

How do you know this? Jango bested then escaped Obi-Wan during their landing platform fight.

Obi-Wan could have killed him outright at many points in that fight, but that wasn't his aim. That is why Jango escaped.

That's my whole point. Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan was attempting to kill their opponent, and it's unfair to both of them to assume that because the bad guys ran away like a little girl with a skinned knee, their must be their equals.

 

[junior]

Originally posted by LeHah

"He is a political idealist, not a murderer" I believe the quote is.

He is a villian to the Jedi Council, yes, but it seems that the Jedi have been corrupted. They take stands with political factions within the senate, and act only when it serves their purpose. No matter how evil or corrupt Palpatine is or will become, we as an audience know what will happen in the end. The council, on the other hand, will be extinguished not only because of the Sith, but their elite and pompous social caste. They said Anakin was too old to begin training and he fell... but then Luke was FAR older and became the one who brought balance.

Even if we didn't know what was going to happen with regards to the civil war, there's also this to remember. Anyone who runs off with the plans for the Geonisians' 'Ultimate Weapon' has some ethical issues. Something like that rates a 'purge on sight'.
Dooku is a villian no matter how you look at it.

 

[I'm thinkin...]

Originally posted by Wedge009

I think it's unlikely Yoda is doing a similar thing, but Emperor Palpatine (in the original trilogy) also uses a walking cane, but only to give the impression that his weak, not because he really is.

The Emperor was actually being weakening faster because the Dark side was eating away at his physical body. He was so corrupted with the powers of the Dark side his body was slowly being destroyed by it.

 

[Wedge009]

Originally posted by LeHah
Jango bested then escaped Obi-Wan during their landing platform fight.

I hardly think Jango 'bested' Obi-Wan, all he could manage was escape... pretty much like Dooku.

Originally posted by I'm thinkin...
The Emperor was actually being weakening faster because the Dark side was eating away at his physical body. He was so corrupted with the powers of the Dark side his body was slowly being destroyed by it.

True, but at the same time, the Dark Side sustained far longer than his Human body otherwise might.

 

[Naféasonto]

I really don't know what to think anymore. I just think that evil always loses, and even if they are winning in the beginning they will always die at the end.

Nafé

 

[Dark_Knight]

Man this thread has gone on for a long time. I have to agree that evil always loses in the end. And also about the Dark Side sustaining the Emperor but also destroying him, look how old he got from TPM to AOTC..looked like he was dying.