Some sunshine & a few general questions...

[Ijuin]

So then that makes ten Nimitz class carriers in all? I seem to recall hearing some years back that the original plan had been to commission exactly ten Nimitz carriers.

 

[Moonsword]

No, that makes nine in current service with a tenth under construction.

Enterprise, Kennedy, and Kitty Hawk are all seperate classes of ships as established above. Enterprise is nuclear, but she uses a very different reactor design, IIRC, from Nimitz, one that is less advanced.

She's also 10-15 years older than the original Nimitz.

 

[Haesslich]

No, that makes nine in current service with a tenth under construction.

Enterprise, Kennedy, and Kitty Hawk are all seperate classes of ships as established above. Enterprise is nuclear, but she uses a very different reactor design, IIRC, from Nimitz, one that is less advanced.

She's also 10-15 years older than the original Nimitz.

Enterprise uses 8 nuclear reactors to drive four shafts, and is based on the Forrestal-class. Nimitz-class carriers use two reactors to drive four shafts, and are based on the Kitty Hawk.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Aircraft carriers sure killed this thread.

 

[X_FIREFALCON]

Wow...

Yeah, I think you said it best, LOAF.

And here I thought this was a Wing Commander forum....go figure!

I'll give some things some thought, and see if I can start asking a few more questions to get things back on track, how'll that be?

Oooo, ooo...got one. What planets of interest are there in the Border Worlds? Is there a particular planet that the government delegates meet on typically (i.e. a capitol)? Also, are there any Border Worlder big-wigs that I should know from this era (around and following Prophecy)? Taggart and a few other Confed senators are mentioned; are there any Border World delegates mentioned by name that are important?

Thanks again in advance.

- FireFalcon ~};^

 

[Haesslich]

Yeah, I think you said it best, LOAF.

And here I thought this was a Wing Commander forum....go figure!

I'll give some things some thought, and see if I can start asking a few more questions to get things back on track, how'll that be?

Oooo, ooo...got one. What planets of interest are there in the Border Worlds? Is there a particular planet that the government delegates meet on typically (i.e. a capitol)? Also, are there any Border Worlder big-wigs that I should know from this era (around and following Prophecy)? Taggart and a few other Confed senators are mentioned; are there any Border World delegates mentioned by name that are important?

Thanks again in advance.

- FireFalcon ~};^

False Colors suggests that the Landreich's capital is the planet Landreich, unsurprisingly. There's also the infamous Hellhole, which was both the forward base which got nuked by the Cats with a Strontium-90 bomb during the war.

For all we know, Max Kruger's still active as President, though we don't hear much of them afterwards outside of the fact that Wilford came back to Confed and took a demotion to get command of Midway.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The Landreich and the Border Worlds aren't the same thing.

We really see very little of the Border Worlds. They were created for wcIV and appear very little in WCP/SO. The WCIV novel suggests that Orestes is the capitol, but we never see any important political aspects.

 

[Shipgate]

Yeah, which is really too bad. I thought the Border Worlds were the most interesting aspect of the story in Wing Commander 4 and always wished I'd see future games where they are still an indepenent union apart from Confed. Like when Paulson mentioned how they sanctioned Kilrathi. I found that really interesting. And they're ships were so much more cooler than Confeds.

I'd say Wilford was a bigwig for them, but in Prophecy he apparently went back to Confed. It was weird too because he was only in a few scenes in that whole game. Not that his character was really that important anyway.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Yeah, which is really too bad. I thought the Border Worlds were the most interesting aspect of the story in Wing Commander 4 and always wished I'd see future games where they are still an indepenent union apart from Confed. Like when Paulson mentioned how they sanctioned Kilrathi. I found that really interesting. And they're ships were so much more cooler than Confeds.

I've always felt that the Border Worlds/Union was really darned generic. They're heroic rebels with hearts of gold who appeared out of nowhere! It's probably a result of how limited their appearance was in WCIV - you could probably evolve the Border Worlds into an interesting faction in the 2680s.

(It's also certainly one case where the fanbase hasn't helped much. The fanboy hardon for the Border Worlds has always bugged me - and the PBM/RPG/etc. club 'evolution' of the Border Worlds is universally dumb. "And then Confed sold them some supercarriers, and they invented some superfighters and...!")

And if any WCIV screenwriters are out there, the whole 'Union' vs. 'Confederation' thing was pretty darned blatant

(IIRC, it was 'offered sanctuary' to the Kilrathi - not sanctioned.)

I'd say Wilford was a bigwig for them, but in Prophecy he apparently went back to Confed. It was weird too because he was only in a few scenes in that whole game. Not that his character was really that important anyway.

He's a Vice Admiral in the Outerworlds Fleet - a fairly important military post, but not actually a member of the government.

His appearance in WCP was just to give us a familiar 'Captain' - the part would have certainly gone to the late Jason Bernard, had that been possible.

 

[X_FIREFALCON]

...and MORE questions...

Hey, fellas. Thanks again for the continued input.

A few more questions have since come to mind:

(1) Do we know what Orestes looks like, or is that open to artistic creative depiction?

(2) And you mean that we have no real clue what the government body of the Border Worlds is like? Should we then just assume it's got senators like Confed? Any presidential body? I mean, I'd find it hard to believe that a free-spirited people would be ruled under the iron fist of a dictator or anything like that, right?

(3) The Border Worlds also offered sanctuary to the Kilrathi? Could someone elaborate on this? Was this after the war when the Kilrathi were going through their own civil war (which I'm guessing still continues well past the WCP era)? Or was this during the war (were they like the Society of Mandarins)? Does this imply that they've had more relations with the Kilrathi in peaceful terms than Confed since the war's end?

(4) LOAF, it sounds like you're a bit steamed with some peoples' take on the "evolution" of the Border Worlds since WCIV - developing new cutting-edge fighters, buying carriers from Confed, and all such stuff. Just out of curiosity - how would you like to see the Border Worlds depicted at this point? I'm just asking because it seems like (at least in your eyes) some people have kind of inadvertently destroyed the image of the Border Worlds; I would like your input so I won't run the risk of making the same mistakes.

(5) I hear you about having Wilford in WCP so we have a familiar Captain face. Here's just a consideration, and I'd be curious in hearing others' take on it - at least in a few articles I've read, it sounds like Eisen (I believe that was played by Jason Bernard, correct?) attended Blair's memorial service, unless I was mistaken. In order to honor the actor, should we do away with Eisen altogether, or if any kind of movie-in-game were created, have someone else try to fill those shoes? Or would it be best to leave the character alive, but have him never make an appearance on screen and just be talked about in the background? Your guys' thoughts?

(6) Haesslich, despite your mistaking of the Landreich for Border Worlds, I still thank you for your input. It may very well help me later on down the road, so thanks.

Again, any information you guys could share, I would greatly appreciate. You guys are great!

- FireFalcon ~};^

 

[Bandit LOAF]

(1) Do we know what Orestes looks like, or is that open to artistic creative depiction?

Free reign there.

(2) And you mean that we have no real clue what the government body of the Border Worlds is like? Should we then just assume it's got senators like Confed? Any presidential body? I mean, I'd find it hard to believe that a free-spirited people would be ruled under the iron fist of a dictator or anything like that, right?

Haven't seen anything about it. As of WCIV, the UBW was a few days/weeks old. As boring as it is, their government is probably much the same as Confed's.

(3) The Border Worlds also offered sanctuary to the Kilrathi? Could someone elaborate on this? Was this after the war when the Kilrathi were going through their own civil war (which I'm guessing still continues well past the WCP era)? Or was this during the war (were they like the Society of Mandarins)? Does this imply that they've had more relations with the Kilrathi in peaceful terms than Confed since the war's end?

This was after the war - the Border Worlds as a political entity (Union of Border Worlds) didn't exist until 2673. Before that they were just... worlds that happened to be on the border - and they fought the war harder than anyone. That specific 'sanctuary' reference is in WCIV's script to introduce the fact that after going over to the Border Worlds you will come to the aide of a Kilrathi convoy which is under attack.

(4) LOAF, it sounds like you're a bit steamed with some peoples' take on the "evolution" of the Border Worlds since WCIV - developing new cutting-edge fighters, buying carriers from Confed, and all such stuff. Just out of curiosity - how would you like to see the Border Worlds depicted at this point? I'm just asking because it seems like (at least in your eyes) some people have kind of inadvertently destroyed the image of the Border Worlds; I would like your input so I won't run the risk of making the same mistake.

The Border Worlds are the heroic ~~~~~~~~~ in Wing Commander IV. They fly cobbled together ships against an impossible foe and what-not. That's all fine, if you like that sort of thing. The problem is that in fanfic there's a definite "have your cake and eat it too" mentality. Instead of portraying them as a struggling to get on its feet nation they're suddenly Confed's equal with giant carriers and amazing new fighter designs.

I say, write the Border Worlds as something other than Confed Junior - if you want to stick with the 'pioneer spirit' that endeared people to them in WCIV, keep them the same way as they are there... or if you want them to be 'more like Confed', have your story involve the consequences that working to such a goal leads to with regards to their greater international attitudes.

(5) I hear you about having Wilford in WCP so we have a familiar Captain face. Here's just a consideration, and I'd be curious in hearing others' take on it - at least in a few articles I've read, it sounds like Eisen (I believe that was played by Jason Bernard, correct?) attended Blair's memorial service, unless I was mistaken. In order to honor the actor, should we do away with Eisen altogether, or if any kind of movie-in-game were created, have someone else try to fill those shoes? Or would it be best to leave the character alive, but have him never make an appearance on screen and just be talked about in the background? Your guys' thoughts?

You're correct that JAson Bernard was Eisen - but Eisen isn't listed as having been at Blair's memorial service in any of the official material about it. My belief is that they intentionally left his fate vauge (Captain Johnny can certainly comment better on that).

There is a TCS Eisen in Wing Commander Prophecy... though, at the risk of verging back into aircraft carrier territory, I'll note that the USS Ronald Reagan and the USS George H. Bush prove that you no longer have to be dead to have a huge ship named after you.

 

[Moonsword]

No one touch the politics of that one. I like the reduced number of flaming political threads around here as opposed to HLP. Let's not change that...

Hey, Loaf, do we ever get any real look at how the Kilrathi put together battle groups?

I know we see a little bit in WC3, but not much else.

 

[X_FIREFALCON]

And more thanks.

*Is REALLY tempted to make a comment on the Reagan and Bush not being named after dead people, but out of respect for the community, the thread, and the forum he's in - and especially Moonsword - he refrains.* AHHH!

Thanks again for the feedback, LOAF.

Shame that the Border Worlds aren't better explained...but as you said, I guess they were just starting out around WCIV's era, so that'd make sense. I'm totally with you on the advice about the government, and I guess we'll go with the idea of making Orestes be the "capitol." I also got ya about aiding the Kilrathi along the border after the war....don't know what the hell I was thinking asking if the Border Worlds aided the Kilrathi during the war, seeing as how this alternative government didn't technically EXIST back then.

At any rate, I'm still trying to formulate an image of the Border Worlds' military strength in my mind. I must confess that though I recently got a copy of WCIV, I still haven't gotten to it (I've worked through WC1, SM1, SM2, WC2, SO1, SO2, and am now working through WC3). From how you're explaining it, though, I have a bit of an image in my mind of the Border Worlds not having as many ships as Confed by far, and maybe even slightly inferior fighter-craft. Quite obviously, they wouldn't have anything to even closely match the Midway or Cerberus. But as they have this pioneer spirit, I kind of envision that they're (to an extent) salvage experts who can turn a scrap pile into something useful, and determined people capable of getting the most out of their technology even if they have to beat things with a stick to get something to perform above and beyond what it's ready to give. Put another way - they make the most out of what they've got, even if it isn't as cutting edge as Confed. And what few ships they do have in service, I imagine they're probably pretty spread out across the border as well, so there probably aren't hugely concentrated groups of ships like Confed has (or at least had during the war).

Does this assessment seem accurate, or am I totally off?

- FireFalcon ~};^

 

[Haesslich]

No one touch the politics of that one. I like the reduced number of flaming political threads around here as opposed to HLP. Let's not change that...

Hey, Loaf, do we ever get any real look at how the Kilrathi put together battle groups?

I know we see a little bit in WC3, but not much else.

Try the Fleet Action novel - one or two battle groups is seen attacking Hellhole there. There's also the end of False Colors where, IIRC, Governor Ragark returns to the Baka Kar system with a battlegroup to pen up the Karga's own. I'm not sure if they go for the Earth-style battlegroup of 'one carrier, one battlegroup' or if they concentrate their forces more, however. If they do go for the 'one carrier' idea, then three groups were attacking Hellhole, with a lot of frigates, some destroyers, cruisers, and three carriers.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Hey, Loaf, do we ever get any real look at how the Kilrathi put together battle groups?

I know we see a little bit in WC3, but not much else.

Not really. We certainly see lots of individual battlegroups, but we're never given an idea as to what a "normal" battlegroup is specifically made up of. I'm sure we can list through all the examples if you want to try to come up with an average...

At any rate, I'm still trying to formulate an image of the Border Worlds' military strength in my mind. I must confess that though I recently got a copy of WCIV, I still haven't gotten to it (I've worked through WC1, SM1, SM2, WC2, SO1, SO2, and am now working through WC3). From how you're explaining it, though, I have a bit of an image in my mind of the Border Worlds not having as many ships as Confed by far, and maybe even slightly inferior fighter-craft. Quite obviously, they wouldn't have anything to even closely match the Midway or Cerberus. But as they have this pioneer spirit, I kind of envision that they're (to an extent) salvage experts who can turn a scrap pile into something useful, and determined people capable of getting the most out of their technology even if they have to beat things with a stick to get something to perform above and beyond what it's ready to give. Put another way - they make the most out of what they've got, even if it isn't as cutting edge as Confed. And what few ships they do have in service, I imagine they're probably pretty spread out across the border as well, so there probably aren't hugely concentrated groups of ships like Confed has (or at least had during the war).

That's another thing - no matter what, the Border Worlds don't compare to the Confederation in production capacity. They're a couple dozen systems (almost all of which bear heavy scars from the war) compared to Confed's several hundred... you won't see the Border Worlds competing on the same scale as Confed. Even if they could both build supercarriers, the Confederation would be outbuilding them at a rate of 20 to 1. (G)

But yeah, that's essentially the Border Worlds' 'thing': spit and glue instead of spit and polish. They're forced to be allies with Confed for the sake of defending their space and because they don't really have any choice in the matter.

(Re:, their fleet. In WCIV their carrier force consisted of two 'real' escort carriers, two converted destroyers and a pair of transports modified to drop fighters into space.)

 

[X_FIREFALCON]

Thanks, LOAF...

Hey, thanks, LOAF.

I'll give things a bit more thought and see if any more questions creep up. But as it stands right now, I THINK I have just about everything I might need from this thread to finally get to work. Now, it's simply a matter of getting off my tush!

Thanks again, everybody!

- FireFalcon ~};^

 

[psych]

Anyways, LOAF is right about the Border Worlds production capacity. And to be honest, it's going to be very hard for the BWs to make their own carriers. Because it takes 10 years to build a shipyard, and another 5 to build a carrier. And since the Border Worlds are on the freaking Terran-Kilrathi Border, there's virtually no place "safe" to build the shipyard and carrier without interruption (unlike Confed, whose shipyards are far away from the front line), it's going to be constantly under attack/sabotage/raids.

As for battlegroups, I personally like the ratio used in End Run. Thrakhath's carrier battlegroup was his own carrier, two heavy cruisers, four destroyers, and two corvettes. Pretty well-balanced proportion.

Another rule of the thumb: four warships escorting a heavy/fleet carrier was considered a "scratch built battlegroup" by the False Colors novel.

 

[Moonsword]

Thanks. I was really more curious about what it might imply about their light carrier groups, but since those aren't even 'official' except for a mention in False Colors about Ragark's 'escort' carriers, that's all we've got.

 

[X_FIREFALCON]

...and a few more creative questions...

Heya, fellas.

I've been in the process of trying to mentally fit all the ideas in my head into this story I'm cooking up, but then a few things popped in my head that I thought I'd put out there to start a discussion and some more thought processes with. However, unlike all my previous questions, these are unlikely to have a definitive answer based on what we're told in the story:

(1) Upon reading through the SOF (Special Ops Fiction), I came across something LOAF had sent me a link to before; it mentioned three additional wormholes that had opened following the events of Prophecy and SO (which saw the end of the Kilrah hole & standoff of the Proxima hole respectively, I believe). For those who have not yet read up on them, the sectors in question are as follows:

(a) Kilrah Sector, Kur'u-Pak Quadrant, K'sK'taq System (one quadrant left of Kilrah)

(b) M'shrak Sector, Tr'K H'Hra Quadrant, Hhallas System (one quadrant left, two quadrants down from Kilrah)

(c) Epsilon Sector, Sa'Khan Quadrant, Valgard System (two quadrants left, two quadrants down from Kilrah)

(just FYI) Vega Sector, Douglas Quadrant, Proxima (three sectors left of Kilrah)

Any thoughts on what each of these points have in common that the bugs would be drawn to these areas? On a potential side-plot note, would any or all of these locations have any significance to Blair? What kind of star systems are these? Any idea how many planets, what types of planets, etc.? Just wondering from a personal standpoint...I can write a story completely independent of this fact, but it might be worthwhile to know the logic behind it, if there is any. And if there's nothing concrete anywhere, what are peoples' speculations? Why would the bugs choose these sectors? Are they of military significance? Does it have to do with population density? Or is there something else?

(2) In a few of the things I've read, it hints that the bugs' little expedition into this part of space may have little or nothing to do with the Kilrathi or the Humans, but rather that they are on a quest for something of some importance to them. However, this is never clearly established based on the history we know. It COULD be implied that this object is Blair, but that's just speculation at best. Based on the fact that it might be Blair (for reasons that escape us), why then would more wormholes be opening up now after his MIA (either untimely death or capture by the bugs)? Are there any thoughts on this one?

As I'm sure I've stated a zillion times already (or at least once per post!), I want to stay true to the Wing Commander universe, the races involved, and their motives....so I'm just wondering what the popular consensus is in the community so I can tailor the story to appease the masses and create a well-written and, more importantly, well-researched fictional, unofficial addition/potential continuation of the storyline that's already been written if only for the sake of creative expression. So tell me your thoughts, fellas, or throw in a few more facts that I might be missing that might help answer these questions better. Otherwise, I'll be forced to go it alone...and there's no telling how horrible that might turn out!

Thanks in advance for your responses, guys.

Your WC & WC community fan,
FireFalcon ~};^

 

[Dyret]

As you probably know, i havent been playing prophecy much. (My copy will arrive in a few days) but what the heck is the mushroom, or was it the nautilus, i cant really remember what it was called.
It wasnt in the ships database.

If it is a big spoiler, please dont tell me.