Some sunshine & a few general questions...
- Thread starter X_FIREFALCON
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Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I would lean towards a group mentality (the taunts reference a hive) - the only problem is figuring out some way to do it uniquely.
I would say that queen and Mother Creature probably refer to the same thing - the term queen only appears in Syd Mead's pre-production notes, IIRC.
Hmm, I'm not sure there's any real reference to the size of the average pilot. Here's the proper ship lengths, if you can determine anything from that:
VF-2 Squid class Interceptor - 21/17 meters
CF-3fd Remora class Interceptor - 21 meters
SK-3a Lamprey class Shield Killer - 21 meters
CF-1a Stingray class Interceptor/Cap Ship Interdiction - 24 meters
CF-2b Skate class Interceptor/Anti-Bomber - 24 meters
CF-2t Skate class Interceptor/Torpedo Launcher - 24 meters
CF-2m Skate class Interceptor/Miner - 24 meters
FA-6a Moray class Fighter - 24 meters
SF-8a Manta class Heavy Fighter - 26 meters
SF-9a Devil Ray class Space Superiority Fighter - 26 meters
CF-3fd Ray Node Cluster class Interceptor Cluster - 34 meters
FF-4a class Barracuda - 130 meters
T-1 Triton class Transport - 230 meters
DD-4 Orca class Destroyer - 600 meters
CA-2 Hydra/Marlin class Cruiser - 750 meters
CV-5 Leviathan class Carrier - 960 meters
SSK-1 Kraken class Cap Ship Killer - 1,200 meters
DN-6 Tiamat class Dreadnought - 3,200 meters
I guess it's worth noting that they're "giants" in biblical references.
Oddly, Prophecy's manual actually has a very detailed theoretical analysis of the Nephilim hand: http://home.iprimus.com.au/nsswty/Wedge009/WCP/13.html
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
And again, thanks...
Thanks again, fellas.
LOAF, thanks for all the information. I wonder where I put the manual for Prophecy...I know I must have it somewhere, but I guess I never took the time to read it back when...I guess that's when I figured there'd be more Wing Commander games on the way...
Anyway...thanks for the information. Good additional side-note about the Nephilim's being the giants of old...I had forgotten about that. Here's a quick question, though:
Is it ever mentioned what became of the Nephilim in biblical references? I was also under the impression that the Nephilim were not purely evil, but rather just relatively superior to man at that point in time. I've heard them referred to as half-angel, half-man abominations, but I think also as strong champions (again, this is referring to the mythical Nephilim which may or may not have anything to do with this WC race)....or maybe the information I read was false, or I misunderstood. Does anyone know anything about this whole mythological race and what brought about its downfall? Just curious on this one really.
I also read through the report on the Nephilim hand...I blushed a little when it mentioned "opposable thumb."
But thanks...that was very helpful and enlightening, LOAF.
Also, you mentioned the size of pilots is not really indicated anywhere. Are the sizes of the Warlords or Queens/Mother Creatures listed anywhere?
And if we go with the whole Mother Creature = Queen idea, and that each hive has its own queen...are we to figure that the hives are independent from each other? Or do you think there should be some higher power organizing all the hives collectively? Could it be that the Kilrathi and humans just bumped into a particularly violent hive, while others out there might not be as bent on our destruction?
Also, should we consider the bugs to be somewhat psychic so that they're better coordinated? Have them be like the Zerg or Protoss from Starcraft, or something like that? I guess it'd be possible to have them each have their own uniqueness of character, but still have them be part of the controlling entity's (Mother Creature's?) grand plans by being psychically connected to a higher mind? Any thoughts here? We don't HAVE to make them psychic...I'm just throwing the idea out there... I mean, how do bees and ants make things work in their busy hives? There must be some kind of efficient way of organizing themselves, rather than everyone chatting at once....maybe something that borders on telepathy would be the best way to communicate in a hive setting (kind of like the Borg in Star Trek?). Any thoughts on this?
- FireFalcon ~};^
Thanks again, fellas.
LOAF, thanks for all the information. I wonder where I put the manual for Prophecy...I know I must have it somewhere, but I guess I never took the time to read it back when...I guess that's when I figured there'd be more Wing Commander games on the way...
Anyway...thanks for the information. Good additional side-note about the Nephilim's being the giants of old...I had forgotten about that. Here's a quick question, though:
Is it ever mentioned what became of the Nephilim in biblical references? I was also under the impression that the Nephilim were not purely evil, but rather just relatively superior to man at that point in time. I've heard them referred to as half-angel, half-man abominations, but I think also as strong champions (again, this is referring to the mythical Nephilim which may or may not have anything to do with this WC race)....or maybe the information I read was false, or I misunderstood. Does anyone know anything about this whole mythological race and what brought about its downfall? Just curious on this one really.
I also read through the report on the Nephilim hand...I blushed a little when it mentioned "opposable thumb."
But thanks...that was very helpful and enlightening, LOAF. Also, you mentioned the size of pilots is not really indicated anywhere. Are the sizes of the Warlords or Queens/Mother Creatures listed anywhere?
And if we go with the whole Mother Creature = Queen idea, and that each hive has its own queen...are we to figure that the hives are independent from each other? Or do you think there should be some higher power organizing all the hives collectively? Could it be that the Kilrathi and humans just bumped into a particularly violent hive, while others out there might not be as bent on our destruction?
Also, should we consider the bugs to be somewhat psychic so that they're better coordinated? Have them be like the Zerg or Protoss from Starcraft, or something like that? I guess it'd be possible to have them each have their own uniqueness of character, but still have them be part of the controlling entity's (Mother Creature's?) grand plans by being psychically connected to a higher mind? Any thoughts here? We don't HAVE to make them psychic...I'm just throwing the idea out there... I mean, how do bees and ants make things work in their busy hives? There must be some kind of efficient way of organizing themselves, rather than everyone chatting at once....maybe something that borders on telepathy would be the best way to communicate in a hive setting (kind of like the Borg in Star Trek?). Any thoughts on this?
- FireFalcon ~};^
I never really thought the Bugs where the actual biblical Nephilim. I was always under the impression (from the ICIS discussion) that it was just the code name Confed gave them as an allusion to something Terrans could relate to from our own religion/mythos.Bandit LOAF said:
C-ya
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
It's mentioned as one of the 'possibilities' in the ICIS manual, IIRC.
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
Hmmm...
Well, as always, thanks, guys.
By now, I think I have enough to get to work. I need to give some things some thought...there's a few rough edges I need to iron out in my own mind...but thanks for all the background information, thoughts, and discussion. You guys have been IMMENSELY helpful! Let me know if there's any way I can reasonably repay you (when I say "reasonably," I mean like something not as extreme as taking a bullet for ya or anything like that).
Respectfully,
FireFalcon ~};^
Well, as always, thanks, guys.
By now, I think I have enough to get to work. I need to give some things some thought...there's a few rough edges I need to iron out in my own mind...but thanks for all the background information, thoughts, and discussion. You guys have been IMMENSELY helpful!
Let me know if there's any way I can reasonably repay you (when I say "reasonably," I mean like something not as extreme as taking a bullet for ya or anything like that). Respectfully,
FireFalcon ~};^
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
Three reasons...
I wouldn't/couldn't do that for 3 reasons:
(1) I don't trust larger companies like EA; when you get into that big corporate mentality, I think they're probably more in it for the money than the love of games at some point (ergo, I wonder if they'd be capable of giving WC the kind of attention it needs);
(2) I don't know this "forstchen";
(3) And the #1 reason I'm not going to donate to EA - I'm too dang poor!
- FireFalcon ~};^
I wouldn't/couldn't do that for 3 reasons:
(1) I don't trust larger companies like EA; when you get into that big corporate mentality, I think they're probably more in it for the money than the love of games at some point (ergo, I wonder if they'd be capable of giving WC the kind of attention it needs);
(2) I don't know this "forstchen";
(3) And the #1 reason I'm not going to donate to EA - I'm too dang poor!
- FireFalcon ~};^
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
...
Oh...well, allow me to further display my ignorance...oh wait - I just did.
Thanks, Starkey - had no clue.
Well, I definitely would never be against EA picking up the series again, but what's the likelihood of THAT happening? And what'd ever be the likelihood of getting some of the original actors to jump back into the fray anyway? I don't mean to sound defeatous or anything here...but it's been years since Wing Commander has seen its glory days, and it doesn't look like it's going to get a boost anytime in the near future. Honestly, that's why I'm writing my own little piece of fan fiction - to give my brain SOME kind of resolution to the somewhat cliffhanger ending of Prophecy and SO.
- FireFalcon ~};^
Oh...well, allow me to further display my ignorance...oh wait - I just did.
Thanks, Starkey - had no clue.
Well, I definitely would never be against EA picking up the series again, but what's the likelihood of THAT happening? And what'd ever be the likelihood of getting some of the original actors to jump back into the fray anyway? I don't mean to sound defeatous or anything here...but it's been years since Wing Commander has seen its glory days, and it doesn't look like it's going to get a boost anytime in the near future. Honestly, that's why I'm writing my own little piece of fan fiction - to give my brain SOME kind of resolution to the somewhat cliffhanger ending of Prophecy and SO.
- FireFalcon ~};^
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
In order of likelyhood, from fairly to not very:
- EA bringing back Wing Commnader in some form.
- That form using real actors instead of CGI characters.
- That story being a followup to Prophecy.
- EA bringing back Wing Commnader in some form.
- That form using real actors instead of CGI characters.
- That story being a followup to Prophecy.
Dyret
Super Carrot!
X_FIREFALCON said:
Well, i guess its some kind of religous thing. If my thought about the matriarch queen=mother creature is correct i dont think the hives is really independent, but more like armies/colonies of the big bug mama herself. But if the "mother creature" is the "local" queen it is almost certain that they are independent and possibly even figthing among themself when not figthing other enemies like the terans and the kilrathi.
Question: Is it possible that the hives is actually carriers?
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
Hmmm...
Heya, guys.
Thanks for all the replies...we're moving a tad away from off-topic and moving more into the area of reminiscing of the WC days of old, and speculating about the future or lack thereof of the franchise...
But hey, that's fine too...at least to hold us over in the interim while I contemplate additional questions to ask about WC...
To Dyret - thanks for your reply. I think you're talking about the same dilemma I'm caught in right now...is the "Mother Creature" a term that applies to the grand poobah of the bugs, or is it just the title given to the mother of each of their colonies. I'm inclined to think the latter personally...but being that I didn't invent the story, who knows, right?
LOAF - is there evidence to support what you said, or is this just speculation and opinion on your part? I don't really mind either way. Honestly, I'd be surprised to see any of the things in that list come to fruition (sorry if I start sounding like "Doomsday" from WC here, btw!). It just seems to me that EA has other fish to fry, other games to go with...what's the likelihood of them looking back at something that happened nearly a decade ago, and getting the idea of revisiting that universe? If a year went by without anything, I'd still keep my hopes up. Two years, fine. But how many has it been already since Prophecy? Now true, they did make the Gameboy Advance version or whatever...but do you think that implies an interest in perhaps continuing the saga, or just simply making a few extra bucks on the idea before finally pulling the plug and burying it?
Of all people, I'd like to remain hopeful here...but I just don't see it happening.
Besides, the big thing nowadays (though I myself am not really into it) is MMORPGs. I've sometimes thought what Wing Commander would be like as a MMORPG. At first glance, it seems like an absolutely awesome idea. But just imagine all the data that would have to go back and forth between a server and a client. I think we'd be looking at lag-hell that would be something on par with Star Wars Galaxies or Planetside, if not infinitely worse (infinitely worse if you really wanted to immerse a gamer in the universe and do it well probably).
Wing Commander really thrives as a single-player saga with a rather extensive storyline, history, etc. I think that's why it might not stand a chance in the gaming world of today. You have MMORPGs where players pay to make up their own stories as they go with maybe a very brief history of the universe in question so it's up to the player to make up their own minds on how things were, are, and will be (kind of funny really, because you're basically giving gamers nothing but a bunch of content, and letting them do their own thing, and interact with other players for a gaming experience, all the while charging everyone to play a game that really is nothing more than a particularly colorful chat room). Then you have your multiplayer games of today...again, no real involved storyline, a bunch of eye-candy, and people just go at it online. While Wing Commander may lend itself to this latter category, I think most people here would agree that without a storyline, Wing Commander would lose its distinction, its purpose, its very essence.
And let's say that EA were to bring Wing Commander back again...you're saying it wouldn't be a follow-up to Prophecy? What then would it be? Revisiting the old days against the Kilrathi? Or would Confed be back, but maybe they'd just erase the Nephilim and Kilrathi from existence and come up with a new enemy? Maybe it'd be like Wing Commander 4 or Starlancer, and it would just be a humanity-versus-humanity civil war-type scenario? I just don't see why they wouldn't pick up from Prophecy.
I, for one, like the Nephilim as an enemy as opposed to the Kilrathi. The Kilrathi almost have this overgrown carebear look to them (at least some of them), so despite their violent nature, you can't really hold a grudge because they don't really have that freaky look. Then as time goes on, you learn more and more about them, the history behind them, their relationships with each other...the more you learn, the more they start to look like just really hairy-looking humans. The thing that's intriguing about the Nephilim is - they're a fairly well-kept secret. The only light anyone has to shed on them are some old religious texts which may point to them. You don't learn much about them. They were the ones who broke the language barrier. Blair himself appears terribly intimidated by them, and in an uncomfortable conversation with Casey, refers to them as Death. They live in a part of the universe no human nor Kilrathi has ever seen, they have technology which baffles both...no one knows their motives, they seem more unified than the Kilrathi in their drive to eliminate both the humans and the cats...and what's their apperance? This dark exoskeletal bug shell. When you think about it, that's a more intimidating enemy to fly against than the cats, from apperance alone. And it would make sense that they would be a more tenacious an adversary than the Kilrathi...when you envision insects, you envision a whole lot of em and creatures that might be more familiar with flight than either humans or cats. I don't know - maybe it's just me...but the Nephilim strike me as a far more scary and dangerous an adversary to fly against than the Kilrathi (I think the Kilrathi kind of strike me as the pseudo-Klingons of the Wing Commander universe, whole-heartedly committed to their honor, warrior spirit, bloodlines and bloodshed, whereas the Nephilim strike me more as the pseudo-Borg).
To Edfilho and Death - Ed, I know you're right on with EA about the last three games being largely in part by them, but I think Origin might be more to thank for that than EA...and now that Origin's gone bye-bye, I don't know that there will be anyone around to point EA in the right direction with making another WC game. As for me - I really don't INTEND to complain about companies like EA...God knows I've bought enough of their games that are enjoyable that I'm not inclined to hold a grudge against them. What I AM saying is that they're a large company, so I think if they had a choice between making three more regular games or building a Wing Commander movie production studio, I think they'd probably make three more regular games - it'd be easier, it'd be faster, they wouldn't have to worry about stepping on past storylines' toes, it'd probably be more cost-effective, etc....
Those are just my thoughts...please feel free to straighten me out if I'm wrong.
- FireFalcon ~};^
Heya, guys.
Thanks for all the replies...we're moving a tad away from off-topic and moving more into the area of reminiscing of the WC days of old, and speculating about the future or lack thereof of the franchise...
But hey, that's fine too...at least to hold us over in the interim while I contemplate additional questions to ask about WC...
To Dyret - thanks for your reply. I think you're talking about the same dilemma I'm caught in right now...is the "Mother Creature" a term that applies to the grand poobah of the bugs, or is it just the title given to the mother of each of their colonies. I'm inclined to think the latter personally...but being that I didn't invent the story, who knows, right?
LOAF - is there evidence to support what you said, or is this just speculation and opinion on your part? I don't really mind either way. Honestly, I'd be surprised to see any of the things in that list come to fruition (sorry if I start sounding like "Doomsday" from WC here, btw!).
It just seems to me that EA has other fish to fry, other games to go with...what's the likelihood of them looking back at something that happened nearly a decade ago, and getting the idea of revisiting that universe? If a year went by without anything, I'd still keep my hopes up. Two years, fine. But how many has it been already since Prophecy? Now true, they did make the Gameboy Advance version or whatever...but do you think that implies an interest in perhaps continuing the saga, or just simply making a few extra bucks on the idea before finally pulling the plug and burying it?Of all people, I'd like to remain hopeful here...but I just don't see it happening.
Besides, the big thing nowadays (though I myself am not really into it) is MMORPGs. I've sometimes thought what Wing Commander would be like as a MMORPG. At first glance, it seems like an absolutely awesome idea. But just imagine all the data that would have to go back and forth between a server and a client. I think we'd be looking at lag-hell that would be something on par with Star Wars Galaxies or Planetside, if not infinitely worse (infinitely worse if you really wanted to immerse a gamer in the universe and do it well probably).
Wing Commander really thrives as a single-player saga with a rather extensive storyline, history, etc. I think that's why it might not stand a chance in the gaming world of today. You have MMORPGs where players pay to make up their own stories as they go with maybe a very brief history of the universe in question so it's up to the player to make up their own minds on how things were, are, and will be (kind of funny really, because you're basically giving gamers nothing but a bunch of content, and letting them do their own thing, and interact with other players for a gaming experience, all the while charging everyone to play a game that really is nothing more than a particularly colorful chat room). Then you have your multiplayer games of today...again, no real involved storyline, a bunch of eye-candy, and people just go at it online. While Wing Commander may lend itself to this latter category, I think most people here would agree that without a storyline, Wing Commander would lose its distinction, its purpose, its very essence.
And let's say that EA were to bring Wing Commander back again...you're saying it wouldn't be a follow-up to Prophecy? What then would it be? Revisiting the old days against the Kilrathi? Or would Confed be back, but maybe they'd just erase the Nephilim and Kilrathi from existence and come up with a new enemy? Maybe it'd be like Wing Commander 4 or Starlancer, and it would just be a humanity-versus-humanity civil war-type scenario? I just don't see why they wouldn't pick up from Prophecy.
I, for one, like the Nephilim as an enemy as opposed to the Kilrathi. The Kilrathi almost have this overgrown carebear look to them (at least some of them), so despite their violent nature, you can't really hold a grudge because they don't really have that freaky look. Then as time goes on, you learn more and more about them, the history behind them, their relationships with each other...the more you learn, the more they start to look like just really hairy-looking humans. The thing that's intriguing about the Nephilim is - they're a fairly well-kept secret. The only light anyone has to shed on them are some old religious texts which may point to them. You don't learn much about them. They were the ones who broke the language barrier. Blair himself appears terribly intimidated by them, and in an uncomfortable conversation with Casey, refers to them as Death. They live in a part of the universe no human nor Kilrathi has ever seen, they have technology which baffles both...no one knows their motives, they seem more unified than the Kilrathi in their drive to eliminate both the humans and the cats...and what's their apperance? This dark exoskeletal bug shell. When you think about it, that's a more intimidating enemy to fly against than the cats, from apperance alone. And it would make sense that they would be a more tenacious an adversary than the Kilrathi...when you envision insects, you envision a whole lot of em and creatures that might be more familiar with flight than either humans or cats. I don't know - maybe it's just me...but the Nephilim strike me as a far more scary and dangerous an adversary to fly against than the Kilrathi (I think the Kilrathi kind of strike me as the pseudo-Klingons of the Wing Commander universe, whole-heartedly committed to their honor, warrior spirit, bloodlines and bloodshed, whereas the Nephilim strike me more as the pseudo-Borg).
To Edfilho and Death - Ed, I know you're right on with EA about the last three games being largely in part by them, but I think Origin might be more to thank for that than EA...and now that Origin's gone bye-bye, I don't know that there will be anyone around to point EA in the right direction with making another WC game. As for me - I really don't INTEND to complain about companies like EA...God knows I've bought enough of their games that are enjoyable that I'm not inclined to hold a grudge against them. What I AM saying is that they're a large company, so I think if they had a choice between making three more regular games or building a Wing Commander movie production studio, I think they'd probably make three more regular games - it'd be easier, it'd be faster, they wouldn't have to worry about stepping on past storylines' toes, it'd probably be more cost-effective, etc....
Those are just my thoughts...please feel free to straighten me out if I'm wrong.
- FireFalcon ~};^
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
EA put out some feelers with regards to revitalizing Wing Commander roughly a year ago - they asked Chris Roberts to submit a proposal for a game that would renew interest in the series. He did, but the project stalled when EA decided they'd only pursue the game if Chris would sign on as a full time employee. He was only interested in doing freelance work, and it hasn't evolved from that stage since.
Eh, there have certainly been functional MMPRPG space sim games... they just haven't been particularly popular. The Privateer concept would have lent itself to a mmp-style game perfectly.
(The 'MMORPG' craze is coming to its inevitable end, though. It's another situation like FMV in the mid nineties... it seems like a great, profitable idea - but it ends up becoming exponentially more expensive to get your foot in the door, with very little increased profits. Wing Commander 4 sells to the people who bought Wing Commander 3 and very few others - despite costing five or six times as much. MMP games were gold when Ultima Online and Everquest split the market... but as more and more startups show up, companies are starting to realize that there's not a huge influx of potential subscribers out there.)
THe proposal I've seen would be for a Kilrathi War prequel, based on the idea that the Kilrathi are a 'franchise building' concept.
Origin has been a wholly owned subsidary of EA since Wing Commander 2 Deluxe came out - I'll agree there was something very special about the guys who developed the games in Austin... but their paychecks came from EA's pockets, not from Richard Garriot's astronaut money.
Edfilho
Cry some more!
X FIREFALCON said:
Just like LOAF mentioned above, Origin developed WC games, sure, but anything more complex than WC2 needed humongous bags of money to become reality. Roberts -and the people who worked with him- had a BIG ambitious dream for WC, to create the ultimate cinematographic gaming experience. That's why we love WC so much. Because we care about it and its background. There were hundreds of space shooters around back in the late 80's and early 90's, but none was so ambitious as WC. Roberts' dream NEEDED cash, the kind of cash EA was ready to offer. And so we got Priv, Armada, WC3, WC4 and so on.
Of course, then roberts got the boot, many annoying people hated Prophecy for strange reasons and WC has been put in the freezer. But as greedy as EA might be, they are not THAT stupid. They know that WC is one of the major IPs in their library, and they want to make it right when they come back. Hence the talk they had with Roberts.
Now I don't know if Roberts can actually pull another WC hit off, considering how he managed to NOT finish any games after he left Origin (he started many, and several got finished, but not by him). I like to think he can. But there are other questions: How bad was his previous EA experience? How bad does he want to make a new WC game? Is it bad enough to make him sign up as EA employee again? On the other hand, can EA be persuaded to do WC WITHOUT Roberts? Or to accept him as a freelancer (ehehehe)?
I think WC has true chances to return. I just don't know how long will it take.
Maybe space sims will blossom again, like RPGs did with Fallout and Baldur's Gate. Maybe they will be different. I hope I'm around to see =)
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