Now don't go postal with this

[Dralthi5]

[Rodney King]Can't we all just get along?[/Rodney King]

No, Gneech, it's not worth it. I'd like to think we all could have a civil conversation without resorting to terms like "you people", but, whatever, eh?

I think we all should just agree to disagree. If certain people want to disregard the movie as "fan fiction" (that I don't even get!), that should be their prerogative, and they shouldn't be chastised for it, just as people like me who think it does belong in the timeline shouldn't be called "you people" (I just find that term incredibly rude).

Okay, now let me try to clear a few things up in a civil manner.

So when I hear "However, things fit together differently - they are different, although related -- realities", it's okay, but don't tell me that it's the same reality, and that there are n different Concordias and n different versions of Paladin's accent. I won't buy that!

But there *are* different Concordias, and that's not just a fanboy trying to straighten out f'ed-up continuity (continudity as my sister calls it), it's a fact well documented in the books. We have the fleet carrier in Action Stations, the supercruiser in the movie and Pilgrim Stars (don't know what happened to it, maybe it was destroyed before the dreadnought came on line), and the dreadnought in WC2.

And as for Paladin's accent... I really don't see what everyone's problem is. Karyo is an actor, playing a part, not the real Paladin (hell, Paladin's not even real, nothing in WC is, why are we so worked up over fiction ), so I don't think his accent should matter. Does it say in the novelization or PS that "Paladin, speaking with his French accent once again..."?

Happy, happy, joy, joy.

 

[Dougie]

Nep, mate, you should be a politician

>For all we know, Knight ejected...there's no funeral >scene.

We see him explode. He goes 'aaargh' as his cockpit explodes around him and he doesn't reach for any ejection control, and his ship is destroyed instantly. He wouldn't have time to eject even so. That is like saying that Spirit could have survived ramming that station or something.

>Note how the characters were all cold to Blair in the >movie. The game takes place after the movie, obviously, >and the characters were just giving him a more personal >greeting than acknowledging his presence. As for Manaic >introducing himself, well, he was probably just mocking >the other pilots and their greetings...that would be >standard Maniac.

There is the slightest possibility that this is the case, but you and I both know this is a stretch of the imagination.

>Bossman's body wasn't recovered, and he was presumed dead, >since he was captured...and we know that the Confederation >lies to the families of pilots who have been captured in >combat, to spare them the grief of knowing that their >loved ones were cut into chunks small enough to fit into >an ice cube tray.

But the ship crew knows he is dead. They would know the truth.

>You don't fly any bombers in the game, so you don't use >torpedoes in the game. I don't recall them saying that >guns couldn't pierce the shields...

The capships have phase shielding in the movie, which doesn't come in until between WC1 and 2. It's common knowledge in all WC fiction that torpedoes are the only way to breach these shields because the torpedoes navigate through the shielding. The only other way is repeated pounding with big (capship) guns. In WC1 the shielding is things like 40cm etc, yet in the movie it is clearly in trms of metres (looking at the distance of shield to ship in the movie a la WC2+ capships. Go on, I dare you to say that it isn't literal.

>Tolwyn isn't a Captain...

Sorry that was a mistake. I meant to say that Tolwyn was stationed aboard the Tiger's Claw in WCA. And looking after cadets? Doesn't sound Tolwyn-esque.

>and the current outfit the pilots are in don't use >Hornets. They change squadrons all the time in WC1.

Maniac looks around and says 'no Hornets!' Though no doubt you'll say something like 'he didn't get a good look'. You can bet Chris Roberts when he scripted it didn't think 'hmm Maniac isn't looking everywhere so I'll make him say 'look no Hornets!' That doesn't go on in writers' minds. If they can avoid inconsistencies, they do.

>It was always the Iason...as for which Iason, it's been >debated before...

Watch the opening credits. As all the sound bytes and accompanying pictures (my favourite bit of the film) fly by, there is a Captain saying something like 'coming alongside us now, doesn't look human etc.' then 'it's opening fire etc'. This is quite clearly, judging by the way important events are relayed in the opening credits, meant to be first contactbetween the two races. Though no doubt you'll say 'it was another one'

>Commodore in the Space Navy, Major in the Space Forces.
>Shotglass isn't shown much in the movie...and Paladin's

But In the game Paladin has served on the Tiger's Claw for a long time, back far enough that Shotglass flew with him. Yet strangely not one crew member recognises him. Shotglass isn't shown at all in the movie, in fact the pilot country in the movie seems to have no bar, and no Shotglass. hmm inconsistency.

>accent changes because he has Covert Ops training, and was >just using the French accent at the time. His Scottish >accent, as shown in the WC4 novel, is...fake. Sort of.

Agreed. I never said it was a point worth mentioning.

>Deveraux was probably demoted for deviating from her >mission when she took out the Skipper.

But Lieutenant Commander is Air Force ranks, and Navy ranks are used in WC1.

>Everything in the Confed Handbook works with the movie. >There's some wacky stuff with what they write, for sure, >but just about everything can be reconciled.

But the writers of the handbook said, quote, "Everything in the Confed Handbook follows RELIGIOUSLY from the continuity of the MOVIE. However, that continuity is deliberately, extensively and consistantly DIFFERENT from the continuity of the games."

If you use the handbook as evidence then you must take into account that the author of the handbook says it's deliberately different from the game. Therefore you cannot use the handbook as any evidence other than here is the most authoritative person in the WC movie project who has commented on his continuity and has said it is DIFFERENT to the games.

>No, it's just not listed on the Prophecy map.

The Prophecy map is an official map charting all known systems and jump points. Pegasus station is described as Vega sector headquarters, important enough that if it did exist in the real timeline, it would merit a mention on the map which includes even the cruddiest of backwater systems (and is a most righteous map).

>They've had Marine training, apparently.

But they haven't. In Freedom Flight Hunter hardly fights like a marine, and marines are a separate section of Confed forces, as especially outlined in End Run i.e. the tension between fighter jocks and marines. Also in WC4 Maniac vs. Dekker. If Maniac was a marine he wouldn't act like that.

>Confed has been at peace with aliens for over a century. >They were at war with an alien race a century ago.

Who? WC fiction states that all previously encountered alien life humans met had not been technilogically advanced whatsoever.

>It was probably an experiment with AI...and an annoying >one, at that.

Again, the uncertainty illustrated with the word 'probably'.

>That's the Snakeir running with scoops closed, which makes >just about any ship fast as hell...they either opened the >scoops or fired manuvering thrusters in order to try to >turn away at the end.

Granted. I am gracious when a point shows validity.

>That message came after McAuliffe.

But the declaration of war came before McAuliffe. 'as of such and such a time' shows this is a primary declaration of war, as opposed to a 'guys, we *reeally* are at war' speech.

>That's all I can answer for now...if (and when) LOAF >replies, he'll probably have more answers for you.

I await with eager anticipation. This is fun, kinda like arguing with fundamentalist Christians that the gospels aren't infallible.

 

[Dougie]

sorry Dralthi, I Did not realise that the term 'you people' was derogatory.

 

[Dralthi5]

Well, maybe not for all people, but I don't like it. Just don't do it again.

But Lieutenant Commander is Air Force ranks, and Navy ranks are used in WC1.

Eh, other way around.

"Everything in the Confed Handbook follows RELIGIOUSLY from the continuity of the MOVIE. However, that continuity is deliberately, extensively and consistantly DIFFERENT from the continuity of the games."

Eh, I don't like this quote. I don't ever remember the movie stating the war started in 2639 or the Iason contacted the Kilrathi in 2638 (hey, that must be why people say there are two Iasons... I still don't like it, though). The movie still would've worked with the original dates (as long as they had gotten rid of the Pilgrim stuff... I never really liked the Pilgrims, but I did accept them).

Eh, nevermind.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

And they won't, because it doesn't mesh, in spite of what LOAF painfully believes.

What is it with crazy people and their crazy obession with me? I haven't even posted to this thread. I'm on vacation. Can't you people let me rest for a few days?

First the stupid points that I hate -- the rights issue and the quotes issue.

Chris Roberts was granted the rights to do the movie(s) by Origin -- just like Origin granted companies to make a CCG, console editions of games, novels, official guides and so forth. The idea that the movie isn't "legally" part of the Wing Commander universe is silly.

Yes, Chris McCubbin has been quoted as saying that the movie is not part of the games. Similarly, Peter Lamont, Freddie Prinze Jr. and Neil Young have been quoted as saying that it is -- this, to me, at the very least negates the issue... and the fact that one of those people worked for (well, ran) Origin at the time lends, in my opinion, credence to the idea that they're part of the same universe.

And now...

Knight DIES in the film, which allegedly is pre-WC1, yet there he is in the game, flying like a girl.

The characters all introduce themselves to your character saying 'hi I'm Paladin/Iceman/Bossman/Spirit etc"

I'm a very lazy man... here's what I said about this last time...

As for knowing Blair at the Academy -- that's been a part of WC's mythology since the first game... the introductions in WC1 are to give the *player* an introduction to the characters. Maniac and Blair were both graduates of the most recent Academy class according to Claw Marks, and details of the Academy years are found in the aforementioned WC1/2 Guide. We can look at the 'introductory' conversations one at a time, though... (Shotglass, Bossman, Iceman and Spirit can be ignored, since there's no indication that they'd met Blair previously). I do, of course, recognize *why* they were originally written -- but I think we can examine them in another light now...

Angel, Hunter and Knight all start their 'intro' callsigns asking if they have Blair's callsign right...

"Maverick, right? I'm Knight."
"You're Maverick, right? They call me Hunter, mate. G'day."
"Bonjour, Lieutenant. You are called Maverick, no?"

Given Blair's switching of callsigns (from Maverick to Pilgrim back to Maverick), this could be construed as some sort of running joke... especially since Blair doesn't actually respond to them, and they immediately jump into ranting about whatever's on their mind.

Paladin introduces himself differently: "Och, laddy, take a seat an' tilt a glass with ol' Paladin. I recall once when I was just a lieutenant like yourself there..." (he goes on to tell the anecdote) -- there's no indication that they've never met before; in fact, he seems rather familiar with Blair. As we see in the movie, Paladin is both a special operative *and* a pilot -- he points out that he's served on Tiger's Claw in the past in the movie novel, and presumably could do so again... it's also indicated in the WC3 novel that Paladin *was* an operative before he 'retired'.

Maniac's, though, can only be sarcasm: "Hey, Maverick. I'm Maniac. Glad to meetcha."

* Bossman is DEAD pre movie. Okay you could say 'they found him and rescued him between the movie and WC1.' but that is seriously reaching.

I think it makes logical sense, given the lack of a body and the format of the letter home -- which, according to End Run means that there's a chance he was captured by the Kilrathi.

* Torpedoes are used in the movie. Torpedo technology doesn't have to be used in WC1 because phase shielding was not around, hence you got thump away at ships with mass drivers etc.

TOrpedoes appear in Action Stations and Wing Commander Academy -- invincible shields aren't a requirement for having torpedoes...

* It is argued that WCA takes places before, during and after WC movie and WC1. Hoever Tolwyn is Captain during WCA, plus they fly hornets all the time, and Maniac is quoted in the movie as saying 'none of those Hornets we flew in the academy' or something like that.

What Maniac says is "I don't see any of those Hornets we flew back at Academy" -- upon walking onto the flight deck for the first time. From my point of view right now, I can't see any fax machines... but that doesn't mean there aren't any. (In fact, there's one in the other room...).

* In the movie, the ship that first enounters the Kilrathi is not the Iason (this point may have been covered previously sorry) as shown in the opening credits.

There's no indication that a) It's not the Iason or b) It's supposed to be the Iason. It's just a ship encountering a new kind of Kilrathi warship... (actually, there's no indication that they're Kilrathi, technically...).

* In the movie, the Kilrathi are shown breathing a different atmosphere on board their ships, for which the humans must wear space suits. And the Kilrathi wear space suits when invading Pegasus station I believe. Yet in the WC games, the Kilrathi clearly breathe the same atmosphere as humans, as we get humans on Kilrah and Kilrathi on earth.

There's no real indication that humans *can't* breathe the nutrient gas -- or that Kilrathi can't breathe oxygen... we see Kilrathi and human marines in breathers and space armor all the time -- from WC1 on. Heck, we see a pair of marines in space armor on Concordia in WC2... does this mean the atmosphere on the O-Deck is poisonous?

* 'Navcomp'? WTF? The Kilrathi don't have the co-ordinates of Earth until they capture the navcomp? In Action stations I believe they captured Fawcett's world or something that had a ship which contained starmaps of the whole Confederation etc.

There's no indication that that information included jump coordinates for Earth (or anywhere). It could have been no more complex than a copy of the WCP starmap.

* Paladin is a Commodore in movie, yet in WC1 he is a Major, and doesn't join special operations until he retires from flying. Shotglass also mentions who he's flown with Paladin a lot in the past, yet in the Movie no one aboard the Claw knows of his true identity.

People on the 'Claw *do* know that Paladin had served there before as a pilot -- he even reminds Gerald of that fact in the novel. Having flown with him doesn't mean that Shotglass would know he was a spy... not that we *see* shotglass, save for a brief mention in the novel.

It's been since indicated (WCIV novel) that Paladin was *always* a spy... including his combat tour in Vega (after the movie).

* Halcyon is Wing Commander in the game (although he doesn't fly) but in the movie it is Deveraux.

No, Devereaux is a squadron commander, *not* the commander of the fighter wing -- this is made quite clear in Pilgrim Truth, which involves the *other* squadrons on the Tiger's Claw.

* Navy ranks are used in the game, but air force ranks are used in the movie for pilots.

Navy ranks are used in the Kilrathi Saga manual's WC2 section... and WCP would indicate that such things are easily switched.

* Briefly touching again on the Skipper missile thingy, the argument *for* it being canon comes from something which is said in the novelisation (p.209 Paladin says 'must be a prototype'?) yet when you people are presented with a quote from the novel makers and writer of the Confed Handbook or whatever you discredit what they say because they didn't work on the movie. Make your minds up!

I don't think we can discreted *anything* from the novel or the handbook.

* Can anyone identify Pegasus station or the Ulysses corridor on the galactic map?

Pegasus is in the Dakota System -- which you'll find in the Vega Sector on your WCP map. The Ulysses corridor is a series of systems, *not* a single location -- which includes Dakota and a number of other systems in the Vega Sector. It's all mapped in The Confederation Handbook.

* The Confed pilots in the movie are 'Marines' yet they are not in the game.

Angel calls Maniac a Marine, but it's more of a taunt... the "marines" you see in the movie are *actually* marines (save for Angel and Blair, who's non-marine-ness is explained in the novel... Angel had trained on a Dorkir, and Blair's the main character).

* Confed is described in the books as being at peace for a cery long time before the Kilrathi (Action Stations, False Colours). What about the Pilgrim war?

* Merlin, the ship computer? What?

Merlin was the ship's AI, the 27th century equivalent of Bitchin' Betty.

* A Snakeir's top speed is significantly lower than a Rapier. Unless this is a really slow Rapier. It makes little sense. In the games fighters are constantly shown to be faster than capships, yet this is reversed in the movie.

Not true -- when a capship operates with scoops closed, it will accelerate to far greater speeds than a fighter. That's what the Snakeir was doing. (We see this in End Run).

* "blabla they have no desire to co-exist with us or any race blabla we are at war with the Kilrathi. God help us all." In Action stations, the declaration of war is a limited action which has nothing to do with any knowledge about the Kilrathi's desire not to co-exist with us.

I think that depends completely upon who's giving the speech.

The Cloak Issue: It's indicated a number of times that Tolwyn *knows* about the cloaks, but refuses to admit to their existence because it means certain defeat for Confed. The best bit of this plot is (collective groan) in Super Wing Commander, where Tolwyn and Halcyon argue over whether or not cloaked ships exist. This issue is seen again in WCA ("Invisible Enemy") where Tolwyn refuses to admit that the stealth fighter exists... and then at the end tells Blair to forget about it. There's a nice scene with Gunter-the-psychiatrist that explains Tolwyn's feelings on the issue.

But doesn't it make *more* sense for the Kilrathi to cloak a missile (first a very large missile, later a smaller more powerful one) before they cloak a fighter?

Re: 40 years... the Terran/Kilrathi conflict lasted for 35 years... so you were pretty close!

 

[The_Gneech]

Originally posted by Dougie
>Everything in the Confed Handbook works with the movie. >There's some wacky stuff with what they write, for sure, >but just about everything can be reconciled.

But the writers of the handbook said, quote, "Everything in the Confed Handbook follows RELIGIOUSLY from the continuity of the MOVIE. However, that continuity is deliberately, extensively and consistantly DIFFERENT from the continuity of the games."

If you use the handbook as evidence then you must take into account that the author of the handbook says it's deliberately different from the game. Therefore you cannot use the handbook as any evidence other than here is the most authoritative person in the WC movie project who has commented on his continuity and has said it is DIFFERENT to the games.

Zap! I knew there was _something_ bugging me about that, but I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was. Good point, Dougie!

-The Gneech

 

[Bandit LOAF]

We see him explode. He goes 'aaargh' as his cockpit explodes around him and he doesn't reach for any ejection control, and his ship is destroyed instantly. He wouldn't have time to eject even so. That is like saying that Spirit could have survived ramming that station or something.

You're right! That's as crazy as saying that Maniac or Vagabond could survive their fighters blowing up at Kilrah! Or as crazy as saying that Angel could survive almost ramming a Skipper Missile!

There is the slightest possibility that this is the case, but you and I both know this is a stretch of the imagination.

Then this point is null and void.

But the ship crew knows he is dead. They would know the truth.

Angel would know the truth -- but not necessarily the rest of the crew.

The capships have phase shielding in the movie, which doesn't come in until between WC1 and 2. It's common knowledge in all WC fiction that torpedoes are the only way to breach these shields because the torpedoes navigate through the shielding. The only other way is repeated pounding with big (capship) guns. In WC1 the shielding is things like 40cm etc, yet in the movie it is clearly in trms of metres (looking at the distance of shield to ship in the movie a la WC2+ capships. Go on, I dare you to say that it isn't literal.

According to the Confederation Handbook, the capital ships in the movie have Meson Shields -- which sounds rather different from a phase shields. there's also no indication that they *have* to have a torpedo to penetrate them... simply that torpedoes *can* penetrate them. The size of a shield bubble is no indication of its strength... *all* ships have a circular bubble around them -- the damage potentio of shields is in cm *equivalent*, not physical centimeters.

Sorry that was a mistake. I meant to say that Tolwyn was stationed aboard the Tiger's Claw in WCA. And looking after cadets? Doesn't sound Tolwyn-esque.

So the movie can't be canon because Tolwyn's assignment in WCA "doesn't sound Tolwyn-esque"? THAT MAKES LOTS AND LOTS OF SENSE!

(Actually, one of the sub-plots in WCA was that the job *wasn't* very Tolwyn-esque... remember, HQ was punishing him?)

Maniac looks around and says 'no Hornets!' Though no doubt you'll say something like 'he didn't get a good look'. You can bet Chris Roberts when he scripted it didn't think 'hmm Maniac isn't looking everywhere so I'll make him say 'look no Hornets!' That doesn't go on in writers' minds. If they can avoid inconsistencies, they do.

Actually, that line isn't in the shooting script... it's one of (two) WC1 references thrown in on-set. But that really doesn't matter -- not seeing Hornets on the flight deck really doesn't mean there aren't any Hornets on the Tiger's Claw. We know from WC1 that entire squadrons were often deployed at a time...

Plus, the movie novel states that there are Hornets on the 'Claw.

Watch the opening credits. As all the sound bytes and accompanying pictures (my favourite bit of the film) fly by, there is a Captain saying something like 'coming alongside us now, doesn't look human etc.' then 'it's opening fire etc'. This is quite clearly, judging by the way important events are relayed in the opening credits, meant to be first contactbetween the two races. Though no doubt you'll say 'it was another one'

I... don't see that at all -- one mans opinion of "meant to be" doesn't equal the universes. This situation is completely different from the Iason incident in the Handbook, too. Heal thyself...

But In the game Paladin has served on the Tiger's Claw for a long time, back far enough that Shotglass flew with him. Yet strangely not one crew member recognises him. Shotglass isn't shown at all in the movie, in fact the pilot country in the movie seems to have no bar, and no Shotglass. hmm inconsistency.

Erm, no, Shotglass and Paladin flew together before the war -- not necessarily on the 'Claw. And Paladin definately wasn't on the Claw for that entire period... he references flying off a cruiser in WC1 (when he fought one of the Kilrathi aces).

Shotglass, and references to Paladin's former service on Tiger's Claw both appear in the movie novel.

If you use the handbook as evidence then you must take into account that the author of the handbook says it's deliberately different from the game. Therefore you cannot use the handbook as any evidence other than here is the most authoritative person in the WC movie project who has commented on his continuity and has said it is DIFFERENT to the games.

That doesn't make sense at all -- if he'd said that *in the handbook*, then perhaps it'd be an acceptable point... but having to believe everything he posts on the usenet because you accept the book as canon doesn't make sense at all. A search for Chris' posts on DejaNews reveals a list of his favorite Daria episodes. DO those have to be *your* favorite Daria episodes if you think the Confed Handbook is canon?

The Prophecy map is an official map charting all known systems and jump points. Pegasus station is described as Vega sector headquarters, important enough that if it did exist in the real timeline, it would merit a mention on the map which includes even the cruddiest of backwater systems (and is a most righteous map).

Pegasus is a *station*, though, not a system. A station that, according to the Confederation Handbook, is located in the Dakota System.

But they haven't. In Freedom Flight Hunter hardly fights like a marine, and marines are a separate section of Confed forces, as especially outlined in End Run i.e. the tension between fighter jocks and marines. Also in WC4 Maniac vs. Dekker. If Maniac was a marine he wouldn't act like that.

Which is probably why neither Manic nor Hunter are among the pilots who board the commcon. Angel *had* had special training for the mission...

Who? WC fiction states that all previously encountered alien life humans met had not been technilogically advanced whatsoever.

The Yan from Action Stations.

I await with eager anticipation. This is fun, kinda like arguing with fundamentalist Christians that the gospels aren't infallible.

I firmly believe that no matter how stupid the religion, those who attack it simply for the sake of attacking something are at least one level stupider. <G>

 

[Dougie]

Oh.

I will onced the LOAF knows more about the WC universe than I ever thought possible. Woah.

Whilst it would be nice if the WC movie was part of the same timeline, unless I see a more authoritative statement than that guy who worked on the handbook saying it's deliberately different, I will not accept it as part of the same timeline. Yes with some stretching of the mind it can just about fit if you ignore a lot of stuff, but along with CR saying he wanted to do something totally new with WC, I firmly think that it is intended to be separate from the universe. Just my opinion.

Oh and the Knight death issue wasn't tackled.

Surely CIC *must* have Chris Roberts' e-mail address?

 

[Dougie]

quote"I firmly believe that no matter how stupid the religion, those who attack it simply for the sake of attacking something are at least one level stupider. <G>"

I argue against fundamentalists because their misconceptions are, in my humble opinion, dangerous and damaging not only to themselves but also minority groups that are condemned as a result of supposed 'papal infallability' and because the points I make are valid and shed light on what I believe to be the true image of God. I hope you weren't suggesting I was petty.

 

[Dralthi5]

Eh, just drop anything about religion. Not a good idea. Don't bring up politics, either.

Surely CIC *must* have Chris Roberts' e-mail address?

I really don't think Mr. Roberts wants to be bugged by us fanatics, eh?

 

[OriginalPhoenix]

Originally posted by Dougie
Chris Roberts had the rights to the movies. He did not have the rights towards making movies for the official storyline owned by Origin. He did not make a movie for Origin, and so he did not make a movie for Origin's Wing Commander universe. Therefore what he made was not part of the universe authorised, endorsed and owned by Origin.

I don't particularly care to get involved in the overall debate, as I see it as rather silly and pointless, but I do feel that a couple of the above need to be corrected, since there are blantantly wrong assumptions made.

By offering the rights to make the movie to Chris Roberts, Origin in effect AUTHORIZED and ENDORSED the movie.

Further, if you watch the opening credits (or look at the video box, DVD case, movie poster, etc.), you will note that the movie was made "in cooperation with Origin Systems, Inc." and that Origin is listed as one of the official Producers of the film. In addition to lending further credence to the authorization and endorsement issues, this also means that they are, in part, OWNER of the movie.

So what Roberts made is in fact "authorised, endorsed and owned by Origin", and by simple logic then becomes part of its WC universe.

Let the debate continue....

 

[LeHah]

Yes, several of the staff of the CIC (and myself ) had Robert's email. I contacted him when he was still with DA about the WC movie. He wrote me back the first time, with a very kind, if brief, response.

Since his depature from EA, however, no one that I know of on this board has been able to contact him via email.

[Edited by LeHah on 07-10-2001 at 12:51]

 

[Marcml30]

Saturnyne posted: "It's like the X-Men movie. There are many many differences in characterization in the movie than in the comic, yet it's done on purpose. It's to make the viewer realize that the movie doesn't HAVE to tie in with the comic, and in truth it doesn't."
I don't believe this is entirely true. The differences are there to make the movie appeal to everyone - not just fans that are familiar with the story/history. But I think you're right when you said that the movie doesn't HAVE to tie in - just like the Batman/X-men movie/comic didn't. Another example, I read that for the Spiderman movie, they are making the webshooters a mutational byproduct of the spider bite. So, it seems that the movie may not fit into the existing Spiderman timeline.

Dougie, all of the inconsistencies you posted can be explained away. It may take more and more of a stretch but they can. And hey, they *could* revive Spirit - it's been done many many many times before. They brought back Spock (movie) and they even brought back Kirk in a book that followed the movie. Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the movie, and I personally didn't think it *fit* well into the game timeline - but, again, that's my opinion. For some reason, even I don't understand, I didn't so much mind the changing accents and other *nits*. My biggest gripe was with the Pilgrim thing - but that's been debated ad-nausea. Regardless, I'm not going to try convince anyone that they are wrong in their belief that the movie fits seamlessly with the game timeline.

Originally posted by Original Phoenix
So what Roberts made is in fact "authorised, endorsed and owned by Origin", and by simple logic then becomes part of its WC universe.

I wonder if this will apply to Spiderman's new built-in webshooters.

 

[mpanty]

LOAF, with this thread going on, I don't think you can afford vacation...

Originally posted by Dougie
I will onced the LOAF knows more about the WC universe than I ever thought possible. Woah.

...and you have only seen an infinitesimal part of LOAF's knowledge...

Whilst it would be nice if the WC movie was part of the same timeline, unless I see a more authoritative statement than that guy who worked on the handbook saying it's deliberately different, I will not accept it as part of the same timeline. Yes with some stretching of the mind it can just about fit if you ignore a lot of stuff, but along with CR saying he wanted to do something totally new with WC, I firmly think that it is intended to be separate from the universe. Just my opinion.

That's my opinion as well...
Again, I praise LOAF for allowing everything to fit it in, but we *do* have to stretch our minds...
The thing I want to point out, is the original intent of the designers...

Clearly LOAF, you answered the "callsign" problem (not much of a problem to me) with the characters introductions from WC1. I have to admit it "fits in" fairly well with the movie (and the characters knowing/not knowing each other), but look at it this way: WC1 was made way before the movie, its designers had no idea of a movie later being made.
Hence it all "fits in" alright, but it's by the means of "collaging" if you allow me the expression (what I mean, is that it's like "patching" everything together so that it's consistent)...

Okay, we can look at it that way, but to be forced to this "mind stretching" testifies of the sloppiness in consistency the movie creators showed... This is an example the expression we say in French, in a sarcastic way: "Why make simple when we can make complicated"... <G>
But that's just my humble opinion...

 

[redwolf]

Ahhhh a good heated discussion! This is what CZ is all about...

Now to pick holes in things Hey I'm a lawyer-to-be...its my job! Seeing as I am AGAINST the movie being part of the line, I will debate accordingly.

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF

Given Blair's switching of callsigns (from Maverick to Pilgrim back to Maverick), this could be construed as some sort of running joke... especially since Blair doesn't actually respond to them, and they immediately jump into ranting about whatever's on their mind.

Construed as a running joke? Who knows about this running joke? Not many, I'd say less than 10% of the CZ population (which would be a tiny fraction of WC fandom) would even consider thinking about it as a running joke. The REASONABLE person would in fact construe it as an introduction! Therefore, the introduction of WC1 which was made without the conception of a running joke as it was THE FIRST piece of the WCU, would be an introduction to new people. We wouldn't think any more of it unless the movie occurred. Although the movie has thrown this 'introduction' into doubt, the base inconsistencies (in plot) would do make the movie appear as an alternate slant on WC. How it COULD have been, yet wasn't in the games (ie, Chris Robert's Theatrical Vision).

Paladin introduces himself differently: "Och, laddy, take a seat an' tilt a glass with ol' Paladin. I recall once when I was just a lieutenant like yourself there..." (he goes on to tell the anecdote) -- there's no indication that they've never met before; in fact, he seems rather familiar with Blair.

Then again there's no evidence to state that they HAVE met before. If they have, you'd think that there might be a bit more warmth in the conversation. "Tilt a glass with ol' Paladin" is quite an introductory phrase. Paladin would probably say tilt a glass with me. The fact that he blatantly states his name acts as a form of introduction. Also, there would've been plenty of other times for talking about Salthi's. As Paladin talks about Salthi's manoeuverability, he obviously feels that Blair hasn't encountered them before and wishes to give advice. However, as Paladin flew against him when he was younger, the information on Salthi's must be fairly old. If Blair DID turn up before WC (ie WCM), then he should ALREADY KNOW about the movements of a Salthi. Paladin's imparting of information is in such a way that Blair appears VERY green around the gills.

I think it makes logical sense, given the lack of a body and the format of the letter home -- which, according to End Run means that there's a chance he was captured by the Kilrathi.

A VERY VERY VERY far fetched possibility...No mention is ever made of it in the games. Bossman if captured would most probably be VERY aggressive towards the Kilrathi. Cobra certainly was in WC3, and Iceman was angered by them due to his family's death. However, Bossman, for someone captured by the Kilrathi, who would have obviously fallen foul of their atrocious conditions, seems to have a fairly relaxed attitude about it all. I don't think many pilots would be captured to survive and return to flight so quickly. In fact, it would be most likely Confed would still be debriefing him to gain inside information.

What Maniac says is "I don't see any of those Hornets we flew back at Academy" -- upon walking onto the flight deck for the first time. From my point of view right now, I can't see any fax machines... but that doesn't mean there aren't any. (In fact, there's one in the other room...).

But a fax is not specific to the present article of conversation. The hornets were. The hornet was the main focus of that conversation. Your use of a fax machine is an irrelevant point as you are just delving meaninglessly into semantics.

There's no indication that a) It's not the Iason or b) It's supposed to be the Iason. It's just a ship encountering a new kind of Kilrathi warship... (actually, there's no indication that they're Kilrathi, technically...).

Again, semantics and technicalities. Don't try to cloud the discussion with vague "could be's". The evidence is OVERWHELMING that it was the Kilrathi that attacked them. There is no mention in Claw Marks that there were any other attacks by other alien races. It was the Kilrathi (who surprise surprise, had control of that system). Somehow I doubt, given the 'legendary' name attached to the Iason, that Confed would rename a ship that, only to have it captained by ANOTHER Jedora Andropolous and to be destroyed by Kilrathi AGAIN. With regards to the name, it would be about as inconceivable as someone naming another cruiseliner, Titanic...

There's no indication that that information included jump coordinates for Earth (or anywhere). It could have been no more complex than a copy of the WCP starmap.

However something as important as Pegasus station, being in command of Vega Sector, should show up on the map!

Briefly touching again on the Skipper missile thingy, the argument *for* it being canon comes from something which is said in the novelisation (p.209 Paladin says 'must be a prototype'?) yet when you people are presented with a quote from the novel makers and writer of the Confed Handbook or whatever you discredit what they say because they didn't work on the movie. Make your minds up!

I mentioned before in this thread that it depends on HOW Eisen said "a new type of cloaked missile". If he was referring to the missile as new in that it is the first to incorporate cloak, it would be construed as NEVER appearing before. It is reasonable as this is the case as it is common for speech to be grammatically improper. He should have said something like "a new type of missile which can cloak", yet both have the same meaning.

Pegasus is in the Dakota System -- which you'll find in the Vega Sector on your WCP map. The Ulysses corridor is a series of systems, *not* a single location -- which includes Dakota and a number of other systems in the Vega Sector. It's all mapped in The Confederation Handbook

And it only takes them 40 odd hours to get to Earth? And theres no other battle fleet nearby, DESPITE the fact that Vega was a MAIN theatre in the war. A bit like saying the Pacific had only one US carrier in the Pacific at one time isn't it? Quite inconceivable given the Confederation's resources prior to the Battle of Terra.

Not true -- when a capship operates with scoops closed, it will accelerate to far greater speeds than a fighter. That's what the Snakeir was doing. (We see this in End Run).

Doesn't one of the characters, if not Halcyon himself, name the Snakeir as a NEW type of carrier in SM2?

The Cloak Issue: It's indicated a number of times that Tolwyn *knows* about the cloaks, but refuses to admit to their existence because it means certain defeat for Confed. The best bit of this plot is (collective groan) in Super Wing Commander, where Tolwyn and Halcyon argue over whether or not cloaked ships exist. This issue is seen again in WCA ("Invisible Enemy") where Tolwyn refuses to admit that the stealth fighter exists... and then at the end tells Blair to forget about it. There's a nice scene with Gunter-the-psychiatrist that explains Tolwyn's feelings on the issue.

I think it would be VERY dangerous for a high ranking officer to submit to that theory. It could very well help lose the war effort! Also, it does not fit in with Tolwyn's demeanour of being someone who wishes to WIN this war!!!

But doesn't it make *more* sense for the Kilrathi to cloak a missile (first a very large missile, later a smaller more powerful one) before they cloak a fighter?

Well has the US developed a 'stealth' missile. I know for SURE that it has developed a stealth fighter!!! So would it not be more conceivable that a fighter has been modified before the missile?

I firmly believe that no matter how stupid the religion, those who attack it simply for the sake of attacking something are at least one level stupider

I believe the opposite. One must question everything ALL the time to see the truth! Whilst it can be stupid to discriminate on basis of religion, something that is so powerful to many, the true fool is the one who follows blindly and asks no questions.

After all, there's never such a thing as a dumb question. Don't take this personally LOAF, and although you're very well versed in WC literature, probably second only to Chris Roberts, I don't subscribe to the view of many members of the CZ that your word is final. To do so would be ignorant and dare I say it, fundamentalist.

I am not a lemming. I will not leap over the cliff whilst others do!

 

[redwolf]

Originally posted by OriginalPhoenix
I don't particularly care to get involved in the overall debate, as I see it as rather silly and pointless, but I do feel that a couple of the above need to be corrected, since there are blantantly wrong assumptions made.

Is this an attack on the side of the argument that I follow?

By offering the rights to make the movie to Chris Roberts, Origin in effect AUTHORIZED and ENDORSED the movie.


Legally in the same universe, yes, however it does not have to tie in with the WCU from a literary sense. I suggest it more as an alternative view of the Tiger's Claw. Perhaps an 'alternate' universe. How it COULD have been, but wasn't in the games.

Further, if you watch the opening credits (or look at the video box, DVD case, movie poster, etc.), you will note that the movie was made "in cooperation with Origin Systems, Inc." and that Origin is listed as one of the official Producers of the film. In addition to lending further credence to the authorization and endorsement issues, this also means that they are, in part, OWNER of the movie.

Being the owner doesn't mean you wrote it, just that you gave license to it! Also, cooperation doesn't mean they wanted it to fit in!

So what Roberts made is in fact "authorised, endorsed and owned by Origin", and by simple logic then becomes part of its WC universe.

Not necessarily. See above.

 

[OriginalPhoenix]

Oh, goody! A history lesson beckons...

I hate to poke a hole the size of an ocean (no pun intended) into one specific point. Well, okay, I don't rreally hate to do it, but...

Originally posted by redwolf
And it only takes them 40 odd hours to get to Earth? And theres no other battle fleet nearby, DESPITE the fact that Vega was a MAIN theatre in the war. A bit like saying the Pacific had only one US carrier in the Pacific at one time isn't it?

Truth be known, in late 1942, the USS ENTERPRISE was in fact the only operational American carrier in the Pacific. The LEXINGTON and YORKTOWN went down earlier in the year (Coral Sea and Midway), WASP was torpedoed and sunk by a Japanese sub during the summer, the HORNET had just been lost in the Battle of Santa Cruz, and the SARATOGA was on the West Coast receiving repairs (also from a sub torp). The first of the new ESSEX-class carriers were a few months from coming online.

And on top of all that, the ENTERPRISE was damaged!

At any rate, perhaps you'd wish to rethink your analogy?

 

[LeHah]

Know who needed to be in control of WWII? MacArthur.
I'm sorry but I just plain admire a man that can invade Korea and have such an incredible effect. What was it, 300 US Marines KIA or MIA and 10,-15,000 North Korean Troops killed? I remember the attack having a huge exponential kill ratio in America's favor.

Try reading "American Cesar" by William Manchester. Fantastic book!

 

[OriginalPhoenix]

Is this an attack on the side of the argument that I follow?

No, not necessarily. But it WAS a correction of the statements you made regarding authorization, endorsement, and ownership.

> By offering the rights to make the movie to Chris Roberts, Origin in effect AUTHORIZED and ENDORSED the movie.


Legally in the same universe, yes, however it does not have to tie in with the WCU from a literary sense. I suggest it more as an alternative view of the Tiger's Claw. Perhaps an 'alternate' universe. How it COULD have been, but wasn't in the games.

So you clearly accept that it's part of the WC universe, yes? The claim that I see being attacked in this discussion is not that the timeline necessarily flows clearly, nor that some assumptions must be made. Rather that because of these things the movie isn't part of the WC universe. That claim in general seems to be the point of the overall discussion; examples of contradictions have been used merely to demonstrate the point.

Being the owner doesn't mean you wrote it, just that you gave license to it!

Who said anything about who wrote it? For that matter, who cares? You claimed that Origin gave no authorization or endorsement to, nor had any ownership of, the movie. I successfully contradicted those points, and only those points. Who wrote it is irrelevent to our side discussion.

Also, cooperation doesn't mean they wanted it to fit in!

Now who is stretching? Logic dictates that one doesn't lend cooperation to something that contradicts oneself. What kind of sense would that make? Of course Origin wanted the movie to fit in. As I mentioned previously, that doesn't mean that all specific aspects do so absolutely cleanly without further explanation or workarounds. But certainly Origin gave its authorization and endorsement with the intention of the movie being part of the WC universe.

 

[Mav23]

um... well... call me crazy, but *I* think that Origin endorsed the WC movie for he SOLE PURPOSE of making MONEY