Now don't go postal with this
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Terrorizer
Spaceman
Re: Well lookie here...
I don't see you or anyone else who is arguing that the movie is part of the game universe in there either Frosty. Give me a quote from Chris Roberts proving your argument and I'll stop thinking of the games and the movie as separate.
I don't see you or anyone else who is arguing that the movie is part of the game universe in there either Frosty. Give me a quote from Chris Roberts proving your argument and I'll stop thinking of the games and the movie as separate.
Terrorizer
Spaceman
So if you read several different versions of stories that told the tale of King Arthur, you would conclude that there were several different camelots? Also, would you conclude that at one point a baseball playing kid travelled back in time to camelot as told in Disney's A Kid in King Arthur's Court? No you wouldn't. At least I hope not. The same applies to Wing Commander.
[Edited by Terrorizer on 07-10-2001 at 00:05]
[Edited by Terrorizer on 07-10-2001 at 00:05]
Terrorizer
Spaceman
TC
SubCrid
Wow... that's a helpful quotation... especially since McCubbin does not exactly have a wealth of knowledge about the Wing Commander games and the universe they take place in. Metaphors are nice... too bad they only go so far. Batman is not Wing Commander.
Yes
Actually, WCA:TV takes place before, during and after WC1 and its add-ons, I believe.
Pretty much any source places Blair and Maniac at the acad together... SINCE THEY WENT THERE TOGETHER.
And now... my own quotation that doesn't further an argument!
Matthew Lillard or Freddie Prinze or someone said this:
"I didn't know if they were going to stay true to the game, or if it was going to go way off. But Chris kept the movie extremely true to the gme, because it's his movie. The characters are the same, their arcs are the same, and the war is the same."
[Edited by TC on 07-10-2001 at 00:22]
Terrorizer
Spaceman
No one needs to know a wealth of information about wc to realize that the movie was not made with the games in mind. It's common sense. People making a movie have enough work as it is, they can't worry about staying true to computer games. For this reason, they don't even attempt to maintain continuity. So this is a matter of opinion. There is no concrete proof supporting the view that all of the WC universes are together. No one has a right to say that the movie is *officially* part of the game universe. They can believe that, they have a right to. Just like I have a right to think of the movie separately from the games.
I believe that the movie was Chris Robert's attempt at telling the vega sector conflict as a live action film. (well, no crap stupid)<what you all are probably thinking
However, I do think he took some liberties due to the technology that's available now and the fact that it couldn't have the complexities of the WC1 and expansions... you can only do so much in the course of 2 hours.
In conclusion, (I realise the above paragraph made little sense)I think he tried to make a good movie, but didn't have the time or resources to really do the WC universe justice. After all... movies have to end in victory... and it took Earth 40 some odd years to beat the Kilrathi. I don't think he could sqeeze 40 years into 2 hours. (I may be wrong about the number of years, too lazy to look right now)
However, I do think he took some liberties due to the technology that's available now and the fact that it couldn't have the complexities of the WC1 and expansions... you can only do so much in the course of 2 hours.
In conclusion, (I realise the above paragraph made little sense)I think he tried to make a good movie, but didn't have the time or resources to really do the WC universe justice. After all... movies have to end in victory... and it took Earth 40 some odd years to beat the Kilrathi. I don't think he could sqeeze 40 years into 2 hours. (I may be wrong about the number of years, too lazy to look right now)
A couple other problems not pointed out about the movie in this argument (if they have been then please don't kill me it's my first day):
* Knight DIES in the film, which allegedly is pre-WC1, yet there he is in the game, flying like a girl.
* The characters all introduce themselves to your character saying 'hi I'm Paladin/Iceman/Bossman/Spirit etc"
* Bossman is DEAD pre movie. Okay you could say 'they found him and rescued him between the movie and WC1.' but that is seriously reaching.
* Torpedoes are used in the movie. Torpedo technology doesn't have to be used in WC1 because phase shielding was not around, hence you got thump away at ships with mass drivers etc.
* It is argued that WCA takes places before, during and after WC movie and WC1. Hoever Tolwyn is Captain during WCA, plus they fly hornets all the time, and Maniac is quoted in the movie as saying 'none of those Hornets we flew in the academy' or something like that.
* In the movie, the ship that first enounters the Kilrathi is not the Iason (this point may have been covered previously sorry) as shown in the opening credits.
* In the movie, the Kilrathi are shown breathing a different atmosphere on board their ships, for which the humans must wear space suits. And the Kilrathi wear space suits when invading Pegasus station I believe. Yet in the WC games, the Kilrathi clearly breathe the same atmosphere as humans, as we get humans on Kilrah and Kilrathi on earth.
* 'Navcomp'? WTF? The Kilrathi don't have the co-ordinates of Earth until they capture the navcomp? In Action stations I believe they captured Fawcett's world or something that had a ship which contained starmaps of the whole Confederation etc.
* Paladin is a Commodore in movie, yet in WC1 he is a Major, and doesn't join special operations until he retires from flying. Shotglass also mentions who he's flown with Paladin a lot in the past, yet in the Movie no one aboard the Claw knows of his true identity.
* Halcyon is Wing Commander in the game (although he doesn't fly) but in the movie it is Deveraux.
* Navy ranks are used in the game, but air force ranks are used in the movie for pilots.
* Briefly touching again on the Skipper missile thingy, the argument *for* it being canon comes from something which is said in the novelisation (p.209 Paladin says 'must be a prototype'?) yet when you people are presented with a quote from the novel makers and writer of the Confed Handbook or whatever you discredit what they say because they didn't work on the movie. Make your minds up!
* Can anyone identify Pegasus station or the Ulysses corridor on the galactic map?
* The Confed pilots in the movie are 'Marines' yet they are not in the game.
* Confed is described in the books as being at peace for a cery long time before the Kilrathi (Action Stations, False Colours). What about the Pilgrim war?
* Merlin, the ship computer? What?
* A Snakeir's top speed is significantly lower than a Rapier. Unless this is a really slow Rapier. It makes little sense. In the games fighters are constantly shown to be faster than capships, yet this is reversed in the movie.
* "blabla they have no desire to co-exist with us or any race blabla we are at war with the Kilrathi. God help us all." In Action stations, the declaration of war is a limited action which has nothing to do with any knowledge about the Kilrathi's desire not to co-exist with us.
That's all I can think of right now. I'm sure there is more though. Chris Roberts wanted a new Wing Commander look. In my mind, there are too many gaping mistakes that show it is not meant to be accepted as canon. Sure you can if you want to, and most of the CIC staff seem to, judging by their timeline. I'm afraid however that I can't see that as being in any way possible by whatever stretch of the imagination. How on Earth can you ignore such blinding differences. The only way to truly settle this would be to ask Chris Roberts himself. Anyone got his e-mail address?
* Knight DIES in the film, which allegedly is pre-WC1, yet there he is in the game, flying like a girl.
* The characters all introduce themselves to your character saying 'hi I'm Paladin/Iceman/Bossman/Spirit etc"
* Bossman is DEAD pre movie. Okay you could say 'they found him and rescued him between the movie and WC1.' but that is seriously reaching.
* Torpedoes are used in the movie. Torpedo technology doesn't have to be used in WC1 because phase shielding was not around, hence you got thump away at ships with mass drivers etc.
* It is argued that WCA takes places before, during and after WC movie and WC1. Hoever Tolwyn is Captain during WCA, plus they fly hornets all the time, and Maniac is quoted in the movie as saying 'none of those Hornets we flew in the academy' or something like that.
* In the movie, the ship that first enounters the Kilrathi is not the Iason (this point may have been covered previously sorry) as shown in the opening credits.
* In the movie, the Kilrathi are shown breathing a different atmosphere on board their ships, for which the humans must wear space suits. And the Kilrathi wear space suits when invading Pegasus station I believe. Yet in the WC games, the Kilrathi clearly breathe the same atmosphere as humans, as we get humans on Kilrah and Kilrathi on earth.
* 'Navcomp'? WTF? The Kilrathi don't have the co-ordinates of Earth until they capture the navcomp? In Action stations I believe they captured Fawcett's world or something that had a ship which contained starmaps of the whole Confederation etc.
* Paladin is a Commodore in movie, yet in WC1 he is a Major, and doesn't join special operations until he retires from flying. Shotglass also mentions who he's flown with Paladin a lot in the past, yet in the Movie no one aboard the Claw knows of his true identity.
* Halcyon is Wing Commander in the game (although he doesn't fly) but in the movie it is Deveraux.
* Navy ranks are used in the game, but air force ranks are used in the movie for pilots.
* Briefly touching again on the Skipper missile thingy, the argument *for* it being canon comes from something which is said in the novelisation (p.209 Paladin says 'must be a prototype'?) yet when you people are presented with a quote from the novel makers and writer of the Confed Handbook or whatever you discredit what they say because they didn't work on the movie. Make your minds up!
* Can anyone identify Pegasus station or the Ulysses corridor on the galactic map?
* The Confed pilots in the movie are 'Marines' yet they are not in the game.
* Confed is described in the books as being at peace for a cery long time before the Kilrathi (Action Stations, False Colours). What about the Pilgrim war?
* Merlin, the ship computer? What?
* A Snakeir's top speed is significantly lower than a Rapier. Unless this is a really slow Rapier. It makes little sense. In the games fighters are constantly shown to be faster than capships, yet this is reversed in the movie.
* "blabla they have no desire to co-exist with us or any race blabla we are at war with the Kilrathi. God help us all." In Action stations, the declaration of war is a limited action which has nothing to do with any knowledge about the Kilrathi's desire not to co-exist with us.
That's all I can think of right now. I'm sure there is more though. Chris Roberts wanted a new Wing Commander look. In my mind, there are too many gaping mistakes that show it is not meant to be accepted as canon. Sure you can if you want to, and most of the CIC staff seem to, judging by their timeline. I'm afraid however that I can't see that as being in any way possible by whatever stretch of the imagination. How on Earth can you ignore such blinding differences. The only way to truly settle this would be to ask Chris Roberts himself. Anyone got his e-mail address?
mpanty
Keen Commander
I don't care if this guy isn't listed in the credits, he's the one that has made the most sense to me until now...
Here's an argument (as someone else already put it): tell me how many movie adaptations of books, videogames, or fairy tales have exactly followed the original story they were adapted from, once they were brought on "tape"?
I can't think of any...
The thing is, for a book, novel, or fairy tale to be adapted to a movie, it is obvious changes have to be made...
WC1 spans from the first mission you fly with Spirit in Enyo to the last one you fly with Hunter at Venice... what if they had to adapt a movie from that storyline, mmmmh? What would they do? Make a 3 hour movie made up of 18 10-minute missions until the last one? Whoa, although we fans might love it, the general public will very very rapidly get bored...
So what happens? They change the story, insert some drama, slip in the threat of the Kilrathi invading Terra, create tension within the "good guys" by making Paladin a Pilgrim, people that are not trusted easily, because of an earlier conflict etc.
I'm no movie expert, perhaps LeHah could explain more on this, but to me it's pretty obvious that this is a technique to entertain attention and thrill the spectator! Well obiviously it can't be a copy of WC1...
I'm sure that the upcoming first movie episode of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, will not tell everything that happens in The Fellowship of the Ring (the first book), they're going to have to change/skip some parts to adapt it...
So when I hear "However, things fit together differently - they are different, although related -- realities", it's okay, but don't tell me that it's the same reality, and that there are n different Concordias and n different versions of Paladin's accent. I won't buy that!
Dougie, I absolutely 100% agree with you! Glad that your first post was one of awareness!
But if you want explanations beyond Frosty's "it's the truth and that's it", please do wait for LOAF, and he'll surely give you a reason for each of the blinding differences... believe it or not.
LOAF is our living WC encyclopedia, and he more than any other, believes in WC consistency...
As someone who discussed many thought "incosistencies" with LOAF, I can assure you that your insight on the matter will change, though you would be still entitled to your own opinion...
[Edited by mpanty on 07-10-2001 at 09:51]
I think it's also worth pointing out that when Chris Roberts made the movie, he was not part of Origin, who own the WC rights, although they allowed him to make the movie. Since Origin own the rights to the universe (hence Prophecy is canon even though CR didn't help make it), then all the Movie really is is a piece of fan fiction that holds no water whatsoever with the 'official' (Origin) continuity. And until Origin accepts it as canon, it cannot be assumed so. And they won't, because it doesn't mesh, in spite of what LOAF painfully believes.
I can answer a couple of these...
For all we know, Knight ejected...there's no funeral scene.
Note how the characters were all cold to Blair in the movie. The game takes place after the movie, obviously, and the characters were just giving him a more personal greeting than acknowledging his presence. As for Manaic introducing himself, well, he was probably just mocking the other pilots and their greetings...that would be standard Maniac.
Bossman's body wasn't recovered, and he was presumed dead, since he was captured...and we know that the Confederation lies to the families of pilots who have been captured in combat, to spare them the grief of knowing that their loved ones were cut into chunks small enough to fit into an ice cube tray.
You don't fly any bombers in the game, so you don't use torpedoes in the game. I don't recall them saying that guns couldn't pierce the shields...
Tolwyn isn't a Captain...and the current outfit the pilots are in don't use Hornets. They change squadrons all the time in WC1.
It was always the Iason...as for which Iason, it's been debated before...
Commodore in the Space Navy, Major in the Space Forces. Shotglass isn't shown much in the movie...and Paladin's accent changes because he has Covert Ops training, and was just using the French accent at the time. His Scottish accent, as shown in the WC4 novel, is...fake. Sort of.
Deveraux was probably demoted for deviating from her mission when she took out the Skipper.
Everything in the Confed Handbook works with the movie. There's some wacky stuff with what they write, for sure, but just about everything can be reconciled.
No, it's just not listed on the Prophecy map.
They've had Marine training, apparently.
Confed has been at peace with aliens for over a century. They were at war with an alien race a century ago.
It was probably an experiment with AI...and an annoying one, at that.
That's the Snakeir running with scoops closed, which makes just about any ship fast as hell...they either opened the scoops or fired manuvering thrusters in order to try to turn away at the end.
That message came after McAuliffe.
That's all I can answer for now...if (and when) LOAF replies, he'll probably have more answers for you.
For all we know, Knight ejected...there's no funeral scene.
Note how the characters were all cold to Blair in the movie. The game takes place after the movie, obviously, and the characters were just giving him a more personal greeting than acknowledging his presence. As for Manaic introducing himself, well, he was probably just mocking the other pilots and their greetings...that would be standard Maniac.
Bossman's body wasn't recovered, and he was presumed dead, since he was captured...and we know that the Confederation lies to the families of pilots who have been captured in combat, to spare them the grief of knowing that their loved ones were cut into chunks small enough to fit into an ice cube tray.
You don't fly any bombers in the game, so you don't use torpedoes in the game. I don't recall them saying that guns couldn't pierce the shields...
Tolwyn isn't a Captain...and the current outfit the pilots are in don't use Hornets. They change squadrons all the time in WC1.
It was always the Iason...as for which Iason, it's been debated before...
Commodore in the Space Navy, Major in the Space Forces. Shotglass isn't shown much in the movie...and Paladin's accent changes because he has Covert Ops training, and was just using the French accent at the time. His Scottish accent, as shown in the WC4 novel, is...fake. Sort of.
Deveraux was probably demoted for deviating from her mission when she took out the Skipper.
Everything in the Confed Handbook works with the movie. There's some wacky stuff with what they write, for sure, but just about everything can be reconciled.
No, it's just not listed on the Prophecy map.
They've had Marine training, apparently.
Confed has been at peace with aliens for over a century. They were at war with an alien race a century ago.
It was probably an experiment with AI...and an annoying one, at that.
That's the Snakeir running with scoops closed, which makes just about any ship fast as hell...they either opened the scoops or fired manuvering thrusters in order to try to turn away at the end.
That message came after McAuliffe.
That's all I can answer for now...if (and when) LOAF replies, he'll probably have more answers for you.
Chris Roberts had the rights to the movies. He did not have the rights towards making movies for the official storyline owned by Origin. He did not make a movie for Origin, and so he did not make a movie for Origin's Wing Commander universe. Therefore what he made was not part of the universe authorised, endorsed and owned by Origin.
Fact is if you people actually opened your eyes you would realise just how *blatantly* obvious it is that this movie is independent of the games. Tackle my points below that I wrote. The dozen or so showing how totally incompatible the two are. I cold write a movie off the top of my head that had less continuity errors (and crappy lines) than the movie itself, and if I can do it, surely it is reasonable to suggest that Chris Roberts can too? So why didn't he?
Answer: because he didn't *want* to make them compatible.
If you want to argue this further I suggest you tackle my points below. Then get back to this.
Fact is if you people actually opened your eyes you would realise just how *blatantly* obvious it is that this movie is independent of the games. Tackle my points below that I wrote. The dozen or so showing how totally incompatible the two are. I cold write a movie off the top of my head that had less continuity errors (and crappy lines) than the movie itself, and if I can do it, surely it is reasonable to suggest that Chris Roberts can too? So why didn't he?
Answer: because he didn't *want* to make them compatible.
If you want to argue this further I suggest you tackle my points below. Then get back to this.
The_Gneech
Spaceman
Just out of curiosity, is it really worth a yelling match as to whether the movie is in the continuity or not? If you think it is, surely it can't hurt you that other people think it isn't, and vice versa...
-The Gneech
-The Gneech
Perhaps not, but it's worth discussion, which is what this CZ is for.
Roberts, as per my knowledge, never said that they weren't compatible...and many of the points can be reconciled, making it canon. Tackle some of the answers I gave to your points, and you'll see what I mean.
Roberts, as per my knowledge, never said that they weren't compatible...and many of the points can be reconciled, making it canon. Tackle some of the answers I gave to your points, and you'll see what I mean.