I can't argue on Origin's intent with the movie/timeline (I don't know what they were thinking) but I don't think that authorization/endorsement/licence implicitly means that the movie is to become part of the universe. In many cases it's just that the licensed story is "based" on an existing universe. Again, if Sony goes through with having Spiderman's webshooters be a mutation rather than a mechanical device, that's going to be a tough fit. Wouldn't this be a case where Marvel is giving authorization/endorsement/licence but not necessarily meaning for it to become "canon"?
Now don't go postal with this
- Thread starter Wolfman
- Start date
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
NO, that's not true! You're crazy!
Eh, this conversation is starting to remind of those bickering whiners in the Star Wars forums, with their "EU isn't canon" crap.
Hey, you want to talk about contradictions? The Return of the Jedi novelization clearly states that Owen Lars was Obi-Wan Kenobi's brother. But, guess what? In Episode II, he's Anakin's step-brother instead. And that's just one example. Oh, here's another. George Lucas is making Boba Fett the clone of bounty hunter Jango Fett, instead of Journeyman Jaster Mereel as we all thought.
So, see, we're pretty lucky for the most part.
You know what I'd like to see one day? One big-ass Wing Commander concordance that ties everything together and gets rid of all contradictions. But I suppose that's as impossible as getting everyone here to agree, right?
Know who needed to be in control of WWII? MacArthur.
No, don't bring up Doug MacArthur. You might bring Quarto into this!
[Edited by Dralthi5 on 07-10-2001 at 18:07]
Hey, you want to talk about contradictions? The Return of the Jedi novelization clearly states that Owen Lars was Obi-Wan Kenobi's brother. But, guess what? In Episode II, he's Anakin's step-brother instead. And that's just one example. Oh, here's another. George Lucas is making Boba Fett the clone of bounty hunter Jango Fett, instead of Journeyman Jaster Mereel as we all thought.
So, see, we're pretty lucky for the most part.
You know what I'd like to see one day? One big-ass Wing Commander concordance that ties everything together and gets rid of all contradictions. But I suppose that's as impossible as getting everyone here to agree, right?
Know who needed to be in control of WWII? MacArthur.
No, don't bring up Doug MacArthur. You might bring Quarto into this!
[Edited by Dralthi5 on 07-10-2001 at 18:07]
OriginalPhoenix
Professor Emeritus
Hmmm...good question. I hadn't noticed that it was screwed up. LOAF, can I have a fix when you get the chance?Originally posted by mpanty
On a side note: Phoenix, what happened to your rank?
"Emiritus"?
. The only thing left is to decide how much we're willing to pay for it. This is getting silly. And don't get me started on EU Star Wars. The novel adaptations of the movies aren't part of the EU so shouldn't be used as such, the Boba Fett thingy is the possibly sole example that we know of so far of Lucas stepping on novel authors' toes, and even then it was in a book (tales of the bounty hunters) which was full of inconsistent poop (i.e. Zuckuss' character which, although very likeable and certainly preferrable, is totally incosistent with the crappy comics that have made his character universally a gutless wonder.) and maybe the reason why they call them tales is because they ain't necessarily true (which would explain the tales from Jabba's palace inconsistent poop). The EU is brilliantly held together cosidering its complexity compared to, say, Wing Commander, which has enough inconsistencies that we're here arguing about the sodding movie which I found quite average and uninspiring anyway (except the wicked theme music) even though it's comparitively miniscule in its quantity of information. Oh and George Lucas took the 'Coruscant' idea DIRECTLY from Zahn's novels, where he made the place up, so GL must think quite highly of at least Zahn's novels. Looking down on SW fans for their devotion to the EU whilst staying devoted to consistency of the WC universe? Never mind my twig, is that a log in your eye? Sir? Argh, you got me started! Grrr.
Oh and Aaron Allston, author of three X-Wing novels, helped write the original ClawMarks. Cool huh?
Oh and LOAF may have a humbling amount of knowledge about all things Wing Commander, but in terms of official sanctioning and Origin his opinion isn't worth a squirt of piss, so any timeline or encyclopedia he might publish would not be authorative and could only be considered heretical or at based unofficial. Although I have high respect for the man, since most people with that amount of knowledge sit in a bedsit and only emerge from their computer to buy some more popcorn and beer. LOAF has both a life (and a job) and his knowledge, and I take my hat off to him for that.
p.s. this *totally* off-topic post means that it's time to end this argument.
Oh and Aaron Allston, author of three X-Wing novels, helped write the original ClawMarks. Cool huh?
Oh and LOAF may have a humbling amount of knowledge about all things Wing Commander, but in terms of official sanctioning and Origin his opinion isn't worth a squirt of piss, so any timeline or encyclopedia he might publish would not be authorative and could only be considered heretical or at based unofficial. Although I have high respect for the man, since most people with that amount of knowledge sit in a bedsit and only emerge from their computer to buy some more popcorn and beer. LOAF has both a life (and a job) and his knowledge, and I take my hat off to him for that.
p.s. this *totally* off-topic post means that it's time to end this argument.
WildWeasel
Spaceman
This says it all.
Ladiesman^
Spaceman
If your going to point out why the WCM is bad for continuity, at least bring up decent points.
Such as the Pilgrim War. In Action Stations, the military has outdated equipment, some that's a hundred years old. It gets no funding because there hasn't been a war in a long time. But, I guess they didn't count mankind's first intergalactic conflict to be a war?
Also on the Pilgrim War, in AS Toylwn is excited and scared because he's going on his first mission. He thinks about for the first time he'll be fighting REAL people, and not just the simulator. But if the Pilgrim War happened BEFORE the Kilrathi war, and AS occurs at the beginning of the war, how did Tolywn fight in the Pilgrim War? Did he just forget all of that stuff in AS?
Then not neccesarily the movie, but related materials, there's the Iason incident. In the Confed Handbook, this was our first contact with the Kilrathi and took place AFTER the...other...Iason incident. The one we know of Claw Marks occured like 15 years or so before the Handbook one. But it's not just a coinicendce that the two ships are named Iason. The Iason in both incidents lost all hands, and were both captained by Jedora Andropolous. If it were a name like John Smith, maybe. I think the odds of two "first contacts", with two ships with the same name, meeting the same fate, captained by a Jedora Andropolous.
I'm sure there's more, but that's all for now. It's good to be back
Such as the Pilgrim War. In Action Stations, the military has outdated equipment, some that's a hundred years old. It gets no funding because there hasn't been a war in a long time. But, I guess they didn't count mankind's first intergalactic conflict to be a war?
Also on the Pilgrim War, in AS Toylwn is excited and scared because he's going on his first mission. He thinks about for the first time he'll be fighting REAL people, and not just the simulator. But if the Pilgrim War happened BEFORE the Kilrathi war, and AS occurs at the beginning of the war, how did Tolywn fight in the Pilgrim War? Did he just forget all of that stuff in AS?
Then not neccesarily the movie, but related materials, there's the Iason incident. In the Confed Handbook, this was our first contact with the Kilrathi and took place AFTER the...other...Iason incident. The one we know of Claw Marks occured like 15 years or so before the Handbook one. But it's not just a coinicendce that the two ships are named Iason. The Iason in both incidents lost all hands, and were both captained by Jedora Andropolous. If it were a name like John Smith, maybe. I think the odds of two "first contacts", with two ships with the same name, meeting the same fate, captained by a Jedora Andropolous.
I'm sure there's more, but that's all for now. It's good to be back
WildWeasel
Spaceman
I think that's all ready been explained...
Wolfman
Rear Admiral
Damn long thread here now
Looks like I went poking in a wasps nest with a short stick with this one.
LOAF has some good points but I still can't accept WCM as a part of WCU, sorry but thats how I feel about it.
If the movie had looked more like the game (designs) I could take it on board and be defending the movie instead of critisizing it (can't spell).
The fact that Origin said 'yeah go make a movie and we'll help you out' doesn't mean they didn't then say 'but you can't use the original designs cause we don't want you to'.
I'm sure this will raise more people up in arms, but lats keep it civil and don't start attacking people for having a view ok?
Looks like I went poking in a wasps nest with a short stick with this one.
LOAF has some good points but I still can't accept WCM as a part of WCU, sorry but thats how I feel about it.
If the movie had looked more like the game (designs) I could take it on board and be defending the movie instead of critisizing it (can't spell).
The fact that Origin said 'yeah go make a movie and we'll help you out' doesn't mean they didn't then say 'but you can't use the original designs cause we don't want you to'.
I'm sure this will raise more people up in arms, but lats keep it civil and don't start attacking people for having a view ok?
WildWeasel
Spaceman
Re: Damn long thread here now
People once felt that the world was flat, but that didn't make them right. In fact, they were horribly wrong.
People once felt that the world was flat, but that didn't make them right. In fact, they were horribly wrong.
WildWeasel
Spaceman
Re: Oh yeah
Wow. I accept it because its trailer says that it's in "an unfamiliar system in the Wing Commander universe." And because it's called "Privateer 2."
Wow. I accept it because its trailer says that it's in "an unfamiliar system in the Wing Commander universe." And because it's called "Privateer 2."
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
To be fair, the Pilgrim War is a *civil* war -- *not* an intergalactic conflict. (And certainly not the *first* intergalactic conflict... that was with the Yan quite a while back).
That doesn't really make much sense... Tolwyn was nervous because he was being sent off to die -- he'd already had some very serious dangerous naval experience (on his middie cruise, mentioned in False Colors). There's also no real indication that he server on the front during the Pilgrim War... rather that he worked on "building the first Grand Fleet in the Pilgrim War" and later commanded a battleship (the WC1-era generic term for capital ship -- this would have been in 2635, *after* Action Stations).
I think all this discussion is pointless. It's obvious that nobody will chance his point of view.
In my mind WCM, even if it a part of the WCU, is disconnected from the games storyline. Even WCA is !... But this is my vision of the WC Universe. This is the one that I find the most logical from my point of view and that please me the most. And this is for me the most important !
When I first came to this forum, before I suscribed, I read a post from Loaf who explained that there where little "mistakes" in the WCU because the storyline was of course not written as a whole since the beginning . But that's all the point ! I mean that because of this simple fact we all have a different reading of the whole story of WC. We all imagine a different universe. Some of us want to make all the pieces fit in like in a giant puzzle. Well ! Their points of view and the way they can make the pieces fit in are very interesting. Some of us, find that the differences between the pieces are too big to make them fit together. Well that is perfectly understandable !
What I think is that if that we all imagine our perfect wcu. And they are all different. We don't need to make the other think like us. In fact that is impossible : we are not arguing about a detail like "I prefer the Ferret than the Hornet", we are arguing about the way we individually undertood WCU for years !!
Heu, I perfectly know my lacks in English so I you don't understand something, let me know and I will try to express myself a better way...
In my mind WCM, even if it a part of the WCU, is disconnected from the games storyline. Even WCA is !... But this is my vision of the WC Universe. This is the one that I find the most logical from my point of view and that please me the most. And this is for me the most important !
When I first came to this forum, before I suscribed, I read a post from Loaf who explained that there where little "mistakes" in the WCU because the storyline was of course not written as a whole since the beginning . But that's all the point ! I mean that because of this simple fact we all have a different reading of the whole story of WC. We all imagine a different universe. Some of us want to make all the pieces fit in like in a giant puzzle. Well ! Their points of view and the way they can make the pieces fit in are very interesting. Some of us, find that the differences between the pieces are too big to make them fit together. Well that is perfectly understandable !
What I think is that if that we all imagine our perfect wcu. And they are all different. We don't need to make the other think like us. In fact that is impossible : we are not arguing about a detail like "I prefer the Ferret than the Hornet", we are arguing about the way we individually undertood WCU for years !!
Heu, I perfectly know my lacks in English so I you don't understand something, let me know and I will try to express myself a better way...
Agree with Sadic. I think we're all being quite civil and expressing our views, although I don't like Wild Weasel suggesting that those who don't accept is as wrong (it's a matter of opinion so there is no right or wrong).
So I'm back to curiosity. Could LOAF please explain away the point made by ladiesman:
"Then not neccesarily the movie, but related materials, there's the Iason incident. In the Confed Handbook, this was our first contact with the Kilrathi and took place AFTER the...other...Iason incident. The one we know of Claw Marks occured like 15 years or so before the Handbook one. But it's not just a coinicendce that the two ships are named Iason. The Iason in both incidents lost all hands, and were both captained by Jedora Andropolous. If it were a name like John Smith, maybe. I think the odds of two "first contacts", with two ships with the same name, meeting the same fate, captained by a Jedora Andropolous."
I'm just curious how those who accept it all as canon's minds work this one out.
So I'm back to curiosity. Could LOAF please explain away the point made by ladiesman:
"Then not neccesarily the movie, but related materials, there's the Iason incident. In the Confed Handbook, this was our first contact with the Kilrathi and took place AFTER the...other...Iason incident. The one we know of Claw Marks occured like 15 years or so before the Handbook one. But it's not just a coinicendce that the two ships are named Iason. The Iason in both incidents lost all hands, and were both captained by Jedora Andropolous. If it were a name like John Smith, maybe. I think the odds of two "first contacts", with two ships with the same name, meeting the same fate, captained by a Jedora Andropolous."
I'm just curious how those who accept it all as canon's minds work this one out.
"...(tales of the bounty hunters) which was full of inconsistent poop..."
Yeah, not to mention boring, right?
"Oh and George Lucas took the 'Coruscant' idea DIRECTLY from Zahn's novels, where he made the place up, so GL must think quite highly of at least Zahn's novels."
Really? I always thought Coruscant was one of Lucas's things that Zahn adapted. Oh, well.
"Looking down on SW fans for their devotion to the EU whilst staying devoted to consistency of the WC universe?"
I'm not looking down on SW fans, for I am one. And, you know, there are a lot of SW fans that look down on SW fans for their devotion to the EU. That's what I was pointing out with my "'EU isn't canon' crap" line.
"Sir? Argh, you got me started! Grrr."
Sorry. Although, I really don't know why I'm apologizing...
Okay, enough about that, back to the topic...
I'm beginning to have two minds on this subject now that I've seen the various arguments. Personally, I still see every WC thing fitting in with the Universe. Not perfectly, of course, because that's impossible. But I understand why people wouldn't want to consider the Movie or whatever as part of the WCU. I wouldn't do that myself, but, again, I do understand why they would.
See, when I look at the WC Universe, what I do is I keep the things that make the most sense to me and disregard, whether completely or partially, the things that don't. The Iason, for instance. The story told in the Handbook is a lot more interesting to me, so I take the bulk of that and mix it with elements of the story told in the earlier sources, such as Claw Marks. Sort of like an Iason stew, if you will...
Anyway, that's the way I do it. Some may not like it, but, like Dougie said, there's no right or wrong in this situation (well, I suppose there could be, but...).
[Edited by Dralthi5 on 07-11-2001 at 10:52]
Yeah, not to mention boring, right?
"Oh and George Lucas took the 'Coruscant' idea DIRECTLY from Zahn's novels, where he made the place up, so GL must think quite highly of at least Zahn's novels."
Really? I always thought Coruscant was one of Lucas's things that Zahn adapted. Oh, well.
"Looking down on SW fans for their devotion to the EU whilst staying devoted to consistency of the WC universe?"
I'm not looking down on SW fans, for I am one. And, you know, there are a lot of SW fans that look down on SW fans for their devotion to the EU. That's what I was pointing out with my "'EU isn't canon' crap" line.
"Sir? Argh, you got me started! Grrr."
Sorry. Although, I really don't know why I'm apologizing...
Okay, enough about that, back to the topic...
I'm beginning to have two minds on this subject now that I've seen the various arguments. Personally, I still see every WC thing fitting in with the Universe. Not perfectly, of course, because that's impossible. But I understand why people wouldn't want to consider the Movie or whatever as part of the WCU. I wouldn't do that myself, but, again, I do understand why they would.
See, when I look at the WC Universe, what I do is I keep the things that make the most sense to me and disregard, whether completely or partially, the things that don't. The Iason, for instance. The story told in the Handbook is a lot more interesting to me, so I take the bulk of that and mix it with elements of the story told in the earlier sources, such as Claw Marks. Sort of like an Iason stew, if you will...
Anyway, that's the way I do it. Some may not like it, but, like Dougie said, there's no right or wrong in this situation (well, I suppose there could be, but...).
[Edited by Dralthi5 on 07-11-2001 at 10:52]