Knife fight

[Delance]

If the Pilgrim storyline had been part of WC1, you would never have had any problem with it.

That's not the case, it has nothing to do with continuity (EDIT: At least with me. It might be an issue to others). Blair had 3 apparently incompatible ranks (Cadet, Lt. JG and 2nd LT) in a very short period of time, but that's not at all relevant.

Maybe if there were pilgrims on WC1, Roberts would decide to make a movie WITHOUT them, and you'd be complaining. Perhaps if Lucasarts accepted Roberts proposal, there would be no WC. Or would it?

Hobbes: You are not getting away from this cell, prince!
Thrakkath: Look behind you! A three-headed monkey!

This proves my point. I don’t know of anyone else who has ever pointed to the Steltek as some sort of “unrealistic” storyline. Besides, we know so little about the Steltek, there is no basis for making such a claim.

The Steltek were "fantastic", not "unrealistic". That makes sense even within the WC universe, and is in fact part of the Privateer strolyline. The only point it proves is that you don't have one.

 

[Nemesis]

What actually bothered me about pilgrims was that the new concept was show to us as ALWAYS HAVING EXISTED in this universe we thought we knew so well... If pilgrims showed up as a NEW element, starting from the new story, it would have been ok.

It’s certainly true that the Pilgrim storyline appeared all of a sudden, and required everyone to adjust their previous understanding of and presumptions about WC history. But to criticize the storyline on that basis strikes me as patently unfair. Sure, lots of movies and books and what-have-you can be criticized for poor character/plot development, not to mention just bad writing or acting. But WC is not a book, movie, or any single species of art as such. It’s a fictional history based on an amalgam of very different art forms and “sources”–video games, manuals and guides, novels, and a television series and movie. To demand consistency to a very significant degree within and among all those “media” is wishful thinking. (As opposed to crafting it after the fact, which is pure fun.) Indeed, it is only to be expected that there will be surprises (like the Pilgrims) over time as new additions (hopefully) are produced. That’s just been the nature of the creativity that underlies WC and has made it what it is.

That's not the case, it has nothing to do with continuity

Didn’t say that it did. Both LOAF and I said it had to do simply with your not liking the movie, which I can only continue to believe is true. As I understand it, your problem with the Pilgrim storyline is that it is fantastic, which conflicts with WC’s verisimilitude. But you then go on to say that the Pilgrim power, as a super power, is no good because it essentially isn’t fantastic. (Yes, I know I’m paraphrasing you, but I don’t know what else you could mean when you say: “It’s a bad thing when the super power of the good guy is to do math . . .") Seems to me you should therefore have liked the Pilgrims. Perhaps you’ve left something out in your discussion?

The Steltek were "fantastic", not "unrealistic". That makes sense even within the WC universe, and is in fact part of the Privateer strolyline. The only point it proves is that you don't have one.

Translation: “Run away! Run away!”

My point was the sentence that followed what you quoted. (Why am I getting the impression you only read half of every post, then stop?) And it was, again, that your hostility for the movie is what lies behind your complaint about the Pilgrims.

 

[Edfilho]

My point was the sentence that followed what you quoted. (Why am I getting the impression you only read half of every post, then stop?) And it was, again, that your hostility for the movie is what lies behind your complaint about the Pilgrims.

Well, it seems you decided what we think and feel abou the pilgrims, it appears to be useless to debate the point. Gee, you're so smart you can read our minds and dicover stuff even us can perceive.

 

[Nemesis]

You flatter me! But no, I base my conclusions on what’s been said, which I always quote. However, if you don’t want to debate, then don’t reply. And if you reply only to pretend to reply to one of my posts, you can bet my reply will be to point out the fact.

 

[Edfilho]

You flatter me! But no, I base my conclusions on what’s been said, which I always quote. However, if you don’t want to debate, then don’t reply. And if you reply only to pretend to reply to one of my posts, you can bet my reply will be to point out the fact.

Erm, well, suuuuuure...

 

[Delance]

To demand consistency to a very significant degree within and among all those “media” is wishful thinking.

Consistency and continuity are different things. A space viking showing up on WCA doesn't have anything to do with continuity, but it's forcing the boundaries of consistency.

At any rate, if your whole argument is based on me claiming all WC products must be consistent just displays how little you know of what you are talking about.

But to criticize the storyline on that basis strikes me as patently unfair.

The fact that is strikes you as unfair doesn’t make it true, much less patent. But that’s irrelevant, because my point about Pilgrims was not based on continuity or even consistency with previous products at all.

My claim that, for some people, Pilgrims didn’t feel right on WC has nothing to do with their previously introduction on the storyline. Someone with little or no previous knowledge of WC might watch the movie and feel the same way.

Sure, lots of movies and books and what-have-you can be criticized for poor character/plot development, not to mention just bad writing or acting. But WC is not a book, movie, or any single species of art as such

So is it your point that the individual WC books, movies and games can't be criticized for acting, writing or plot? Or that, because the movie is connected to other products, it can’t suffer any kind of criticized relating to such things?

As I understand it, your problem with the Pilgrim storyline is that it is fantastic, which conflicts with WC’s verisimilitude.

You misunderstood it. My claims about verisimilitude were to counter the claim that WC is asteroids on 3D.

I don’t know what else you could mean when you say: “It’s a bad thing when the super power of the good guy is to do math . . .") Seems to me you should therefore have liked the Pilgrims. Perhaps you’ve left something out in your discussion?

That means that they made a leap to include super powers on WC as a central aspect of the plot, but made said powers ultimately uninteresting. Therefore it seems you didn’t understood it correctly.

My point was the sentence that followed what you quoted.

Your point was based on your mistaken assumption that I have classified the Steltek as "unrealistic", what is completely not true. The way I referred to them is pretty much consistent with the storyline of Privateer.

(Why am I getting the impression you only read half of every post, then stop?) And it was, again, that your hostility for the movie is what lies behind your complaint about the Pilgrims.

The impression you give is that you either don't read or don't understand what everyone else is saying. And what’s the deal with this bizarre “you are hostile towards the movie” rhetoric? That’s scary.

 

[Viper61]

Oh, why didn't they just leave Blair as Border World scum rather than changing him into a Pilgrim? Oh yeah, people would have bitched about that too!

C-ya

 

[Anxiety]

where is it said that the Pilgrims ability is actually a super power? i think that after prolonged exposure to space (and essentially navigating, piloting ect in space) that they eventually got the ability to do all the stuff they did. now if i am mistaken and the Pilgrims just had this ability (it has been a while since i have seen the movie) then it could just be a God given ability. then it could possibly been handed down through the generations, whether it been given by genes or possibly by experience (having either been forced by their parents or just interest because of their parents and/or personal interest.)

also, aside from discimination from the other pilots, they never have needed to mention the Pilgrims. Blair's extordinary piloting skills should be more than enough proof that he is a Pilgrim, only from information stated in the movie, without having to mention it within the storyline of any of the mediums the Wing Commander Universe is a part of. true, there are other extrodinary pilots out there (Maniac, to name just one) that could possible be called a Pilgrim based on what i have said, but we need information from the movie to make a final judgement. but since they are not "convicted" pilgrims, we have to assume that they are not pilgrims. Pilgrims may just have a natural in-born piloting ability, seeing as there is no real evidence that they had super powers, they were able to do things that most people could not, just like sports, some people can play others are better and others just can't play at all.

 

[Nemesis]

A space viking showing up on WCA doesn't have anything to do with continuity, but it's forcing the boundaries of consistency.

I was addressing Edfilho’s argument that the Pilgrims were “dropped” into an already established WC history, not unlike your “space viking” example.

At any rate, if your whole argument is based on me claiming all WC products must be consistent just displays how little you know of what you are talking about.

Again, I was addressing Edfilho’s quote; I’ve never characterized your comments in that way.

The fact that is strikes you as unfair doesn’’t make it true, much less patent.

Right, that’s why after stating what I believed, I proceeded to present an argument in support of it. Sorry if, apparently as before, you stopped reading at that point.

But that’’s irrelevant, because my point about Pilgrims was not based on continuity or even consistency with previous products at all.

Didn’t say that it was; I was addressing Edfilho’s comments.

My claim that, for some people, Pilgrims didn’’t feel right on WC has nothing to do with their previously introduction on the storyline.

Again, that was Edfilho’s argument, which I was addressing. (I guess it’s obvious at this point you don’t read the quoted material. Or do you actually believe that you said that?)

Someone with little or no previous knowledge of WC might watch the movie and feel the same way.

Someone with little or no previous knowledge of WC might watch the movie and feel the Kilrathi weren’t “right”.

So is it your point that the individual WC books, movies and games can't be criticized for acting, writing or plot?

Nope.

Or that, because the movie is connected to other products, it can’’t suffer any kind of criticized relating to such things?

It can be criticized. (Nothing is above criticism.) But the issue is whether to the same degree as an individual book, movie, etc. And my answer, if you noticed, was the very first quote you chose to comment on.

You misunderstood it. My claims about verisimilitude were to counter the claim that WC is asteroids on 3D.

You made several comments about WC’s verisimilitude besides the reference to Asteroids on 3D. In any event, we simply disagree on the aesthetics.

That means that they made a leap to include super powers on WC as a central aspect of the plot, but made said powers ultimately uninteresting. Therefore it seems you didn’’t understood it correctly.

No, I got it. We just disagree on that. I see no “leap”; I find the ability interesting.

Your point was based on your mistaken assumption that I have classified the Steltek as "unrealistic", what is completely not true. The way I referred to them is pretty much consistent with the storyline of Privateer.

Feel free to substitute the word “fantastic”. Consider my statement, as amended, reiterated.

The impression you give is that you either don't read or don't understand what everyone else is saying.

Earlier, you took Edfilho’s quote to be yours, now you take your problem to be mine. I guess that’s . . . consistent.

And what’’s the deal with this bizarre ““you are hostile towards the movie”” rhetoric? That’’s scary.

I’m sorry if I scared you. Everything’s going to be all right.

 

[BlackJack2064]

I had to add about Dooku's solar sailed ship and watto. They knew the Sails were to small, that they would have needed to be KM in width to work, but it is a science fiction opera, so they knew it would slide. Toydarians (Watto) have bags of gas in there stomachs (that is why they are so potbellied) that act to lighten him. That is what I get for reading everything about star wars that I can get.,

The pilgrim thing kinda threw me off a little. Just cause it was new, and not ever addressed (kinda like the Mitichlorians in SW, see how long that lasted lol). I enjoyed the WC movie, I wished the ships looked more like the games but, if wishes were horses......

I read somewhere before the movie was released that they wanted to have a more "vintage" look because of its release date being so close to TPM (two weeks after I think), they wanted to have a different "feel" to keep it from being a SW clone, since alot of people have no idea what WC is.

This is just my two cents though...and as always people will disagree, the beauty of being an american, you are always right, even when your are not.

 

[Anxiety]

(kinda like the Mitichlorians in SW, see how long that lasted lol).

They added the mitdchlorians as a way to explain how the Jedi know about the Force. Also so that they had a way to identify why Obi trained Anakin, because his master believed that he was the one to bring balance to the Force. They weren't mentioned in the previous trilogy because they had no way of measuring the Mitichlorian count because Yoda was in isolation with little to no technology, and Obi-Wan new by his heritage that he was strong in the Force and Luke never used it because he had no knowledge of it.

 

[McGruff]

Nobody complained when they learned that Blair had been a wrestler in high school because that isn't particularly RETARDED like making him a Pilgrim Jedi from the fourth dimension or some such crap.

 

[Delance]

Toydarians (Watto) have bags of gas in there stomachs (that is why they are so potbellied) that act to lighten him.

The producers of the movie, however, made fun of Watto as "Star Wars physics", ie, impossible in the real world. They said that on the commentary track on AOTC, when talking about Dook's sailer.

They used a pseudo-scientific approach on TPM to the force that was, on the original movie, supernatural. From the mystic to the material it lost a lot of appeal, what caused the rejection.

Bear in mind that the midichlorians are not an explanation of the force. You explain a religion with theology. When you try to explain everything exclusively with science (as a substitute for religion, not an investigative method) and materialism, you removing the very base that religion is made of: faith.

If the force is simply natural process that can be scientifically studied, entire plot points like Han Solo skepticism and Luke's leap of faith are rendered pointless.

It's interesting to note that in 1977 religion was very particularly popular, and on an interview and Lucas said he wanted to do with the movie was to make people think about it, to spark conversations on the subject.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Fear not, I have not abandoned this thread. I simply gave it some time to age -- like a fine wine. I cannot, however, be blamed for the fact that it has aged more along the lines of a bucket of dead crawfish.

True, true, I was refering not o the movie as a whole, but to the pilgrim concept in particular.

Because World War II involved neither religious persecution nor a group of fanatics who were sure they were genetically superior to everyone else ? I guess I'm just drawing a blank from all angles on this one. One, I don't see how the Pilgrim stuff contradicts/counteracts the very clear 'WW2 in space' theme of the movie... and two, I don't see how 'WW2 in space' is a necessary requirement of the Wing Commander universe. Yes, it's there - but it's nowhere near the litmus test by which Wing Commander is defined. There's plenty of aspects of Wing Commander that just plain have nothing to do with World War 2...

Granted, but the fact that Blair was a wrestler has no bearing on the rest of the games and books and dates and data etc. The fact that he is a bastard pilgrim, a splinter race who tried to destroy humankind just as we fought the first kats, and that these pilgrims have special mental powers (no matter how useless they are) is not just a pretty curiosity about his past.

Sure it does - if you force it to in the same way you claim the Pilgrim issue must be forced into every preceeding situation. You can come up with half a dozen "Why didn't Blair use his ability to wrestle to save the day here?" situations just as easily as you can come up with "Why didn't Blair's ability to sense magnetic fields save the day here?" ones. It's evidence of a bias.

Yes and no. What I think is that there shouldn’t be any powers to begin with, however, once you make the leap, let some mysticism kick in. The whole materialism is borderline nihilistic and not very satisfying on any level. Yes, the pilgrims have a religion and a background, but on the movie you have Obi-Wan telling Luke that he doesn’t need faith, since he has nice genes. Somehow, it’s harder to buy that, not that the random Yoda mumbling about how loving your relative makes you evil is a lot better.

Sure, it's a different lesson than Star Wars: you don't need to believe in God because you have this ability regardless of what you think. I personally don't think that's a good or satisfying lesson, either... but it's certainly uniquely opposite rather than a direct copy of that of Star Wars.

But when you try to give a rational explanation, people tend to dump their suspension of disbelief. That’s most likely the source of much of the rejection for the midicholrian thing. On a note, that’s also probably why shows like X-Files tend to let a lot of the stuff in the open, since any detailed explanation would probably make it such, since it can’t match up what’s happening on the audience own imagination.

Eh, I think it's just an unfortunate modern trend in consalidation with regards to 'universe creation' in storytelling. You see it throughout the Wing Commander games - the original games (WC1, WC2, etc) created a much more 'broad' universe than the modern ones (WC3, WC4) did. You would have conversations about completely irrelevent issues and topics and all sorts of name dropping that created a huge imaginary universe... and since then we've switched to a 'say only what is important right now, and explain its relationship to reality'. You see it throughout the genres: on Star Trek shows, in Star Wars movies and so forth.

Hey, here’s a new theory for you. Maybe, Wing Commander is so verisimilar in nature that people tend to have low tolerance for that stuff. And I’m not talking about the fanbase expectation, just the overall look of the movie and games. That’s why, of all space movies with sound on space, the audience tend to care about the whole space sonar scene. Come on, it’s not like its less ‘realistic’ than any random detail on your preferred space opera. Maybe it crossed a mental line, or was in some way too “obvious”.

AOTC has absurd stuff like a useless yet cool solar sail for Dooku’s ship, wings too small to support flying Watto, and space “seismic” charges, but somehow people swallow it without much problem. But they don’t when Obi-Wan uses “south” to describe a system's location, what’s in fact makes sense, according to Phil Plait on Bad Astronomy.

People being stupid is hardly my problem, and if I'm a fan of a series that feels the same way then all the better.

(Seriously, though, I can't say I've seen more people complaining about the 'south' quote than about the space charges...)

I think the verisimilar aspect of WC is relevant. Wing Commander was designed to look and feel realistic, but in a fun way. I wouldn’t put it on the same boat of space invader or any random scroller or rail shooter like some folk. I don’t think that receiving a new fighter model for testing on the carrier or having some experimental upgrade classifies as the same as power ups. Yes, there’s the Armada “proving grounds” that I’m intentionally ignoring, but we can consider it the expectation that proves the rule. Well, I can at least.

That's what makes Wing Commander great - that it took a very classic gameplay and turned it into something unique. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Blair had 3 apparently incompatible ranks (Cadet, Lt. JG and 2nd LT) in a very short period of time, but that's not at all relevant.

Lieutenant, Junior Grade and Second Lieutenant are the same rank. Cadet is a position rather than a rank.

(In Wing Commander, at least. In 'reality' Lt. JG. is a naval rank while 2nd Lt. is an Army/Air Force rank. According to Victory Streak, both the Navy and the Space Force use '2nd Lt' and '1st Lt'... so 2nd Lt. would be the junior grade in either service.)

The Steltek were "fantastic", not "unrealistic". That makes sense even within the WC universe, and is in fact part of the Privateer strolyline. The only point it proves is that you don't have one.

How is this different than the Pilgrims, though? The Pilgrims have a fantastically well explained backstory - one that's better established than pretty much any pre/early war history in Wing Commander.

That means that they made a leap to include super powers on WC as a central aspect of the plot, but made said powers ultimately uninteresting. Therefore it seems you didn’t understood it correctly.

Lets address this one more time. How are the Pilgrim abilities a 'super power'? I can't really figure it out. They have a higher than average ability to sense magnetic fields, which allows them to more easily navigate dangerous jump points (ie, quasars/pulsars/black holes). It's a slight modification of something that was created entirely within the Wing Commander continuity in the first place. It's hardly outrunning a speeding bullet or jumping buildings in a single bound.

where is it said that the Pilgrims ability is actually a super power? i think that after prolonged exposure to space (and essentially navigating, piloting ect in space) that they eventually got the ability to do all the stuff they did. now if i am mistaken and the Pilgrims just had this ability (it has been a while since i have seen the movie) then it could just be a God given ability. then it could possibly been handed down through the generations, whether it been given by genes or possibly by experience (having either been forced by their parents or just interest because of their parents and/or personal interest.)

That's essentially correct. The story is essentially that the Pilgrim 'ability' is a normal part of human genetic makeup that was 'selected for' in Wing Commander's future because it allowed children born in microgravity a better chance of coming to term. When humans went into space and started to establish colonies, a higher than average number of people with the "super powers" survived to the next generation.

The religious backstory is pretty much what you mentioned, too. Many humans living in the colonies came to feel that their 'superior' abilities were the work of a deity who supported the idea of colonizing space over remaining on Earth... the religion formed from there.

I read somewhere before the movie was released that they wanted to have a more "vintage" look because of its release date being so close to TPM (two weeks after I think), they wanted to have a different "feel" to keep it from being a SW clone, since alot of people have no idea what WC is.

The Phantom Menace came out ten weeks after Wing Commander (May 19th vs. March 12th, respectively). An interesting side-note is that under the distribution contract with Chris Roberts/Wing Commander Productions, FOX was obligated to release the Wing Commander movie *before* Star Wars. If they hadn't (and that came close to happening) the distribution rights to the movie would have reverted to Roberts and he could have signed a different release deal (Sony expressed a good deal of interest at the time).

Nobody complained when they learned that Blair had been a wrestler in high school because that isn't particularly RETARDED like making him a Pilgrim Jedi from the fourth dimension or some such crap.

Do you see why threads like this have to be knife fights? For every person willing to have an intelligent discussion about the topic there's some other demibrained googlebeast who refuses to contribute anything more than "HAHA! I READ THE THREAD TOPIC!". I take a lot of comfort from the fact that it's not the people on my side of the argument who act this dumb (.....usually).

 

[Edfilho]

Fear not, I have not abandoned this thread. I simply gave it some time to age -- like a fine wine. I cannot, however, be blamed for the fact that it has aged more along the lines of a bucket of dead crawfish.

Not really your fault...

BTW, I'm not answering Nemesis because he did not understand anything I've3 been saying, and he insists on the fact that I complained about simple chronology and continuity, when I clearly said I didn't. He is too stuck up his own little theories to pay any attention to my actual arguments.

Because World War II involved neither religious persecution nor a group of fanatics who were sure they were genetically superior to everyone else ? I guess I'm just drawing a blank from all angles on this one. One, I don't see how the Pilgrim stuff contradicts/counteracts the very clear 'WW2 in space' theme of the movie... and two, I don't see how 'WW2 in space' is a necessary requirement of the Wing Commander universe. Yes, it's there - but it's nowhere near the litmus test by which Wing Commander is defined. There's plenty of aspects of Wing Commander that just plain have nothing to do with World War 2...

If simplifyed enough, anything will be similar to WW2... Anyway, that was more of an example. WC4 issues are more Cold-War like than ww2.

Sure it does - if you force it to in the same way you claim the Pilgrim issue must be forced into every preceeding situation. You can come up with half a dozen "Why didn't Blair use his ability to wrestle to save the day here?" situations just as easily as you can come up with "Why didn't Blair's ability to sense magnetic fields save the day here?" ones. It's evidence of a bias.

Sure it doesn't. When could have blair used wrestling in the games? even in the Axius scenes it would have been useless... Anyway, that's so beside the point.

LOAF, do you really think that "Blair wrestled when he was younger" is the same magnitude of "there was a whole sect of human race living in the stars that created a weird religion based on subtile genetic mutations and suddenly decided to murder the rest of human race, therefore starting a war that ended AFTER the start of the K-War, and also rearanged the whole history of Blair's life?"

Sure, it's a different lesson than Star Wars: you don't need to believe in God because you have this ability regardless of what you think. I personally don't think that's a good or satisfying lesson, either... but it's certainly uniquely opposite rather than a direct copy of that of Star Wars.

Not only I completely agree with you here, but I'd like to point that nor me neither delance ever implied or afirmed that WC is a SW ripoff.

Eh, I think it's just an unfortunate modern trend in consalidation with regards to 'universe creation' in storytelling. You see it throughout the Wing Commander games - the original games (WC1, WC2, etc) created a much more 'broad' universe than the modern ones (WC3, WC4) did. You would have conversations about completely irrelevent issues and topics and all sorts of name dropping that created a huge imaginary universe... and since then we've switched to a 'say only what is important right now, and explain its relationship to reality'. You see it throughout the genres: on Star Trek shows, in Star Wars movies and so forth.

I agree with you partialy. In Wc's case, it is less of a trend than a necessity derived from the new storytelling plans Roberts and crew had for the series. It would have been pretty hard to make such a complex and ambitious interactive movie while keeping the vagueness and openess of the first game...

That's what makes Wing Commander great - that it took a very classic gameplay and turned it into something unique. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Agreed.

How is this different than the Pilgrims, though? The Pilgrims have a fantastically well explained backstory - one that's better established than pretty much any pre/early war history in Wing Commander.

I can't argue with that. They are indeed very well explained. I do find it straining of my suspension of disbelief abilities that such an important array of facts and conflicts, that ended AFTER the start of the Kat war, are not mentioned anywhere. For instance, this things should be VERY important in Action Stations... But I don't fret about this, I simply shrug and move on. I used to be bothered by this a lot more in the past. It is a lot better than the WEC thing, though (Is the WC WEC the same one in Crusader??)

Lets address this one more time. How are the Pilgrim abilities a 'super power'? I can't really figure it out. They have a higher than average ability to sense magnetic fields, which allows them to more easily navigate dangerous jump points (ie, quasars/pulsars/black holes). It's a slight modification of something that was created entirely within the Wing Commander continuity in the first place. It's hardly outrunning a speeding bullet or jumping buildings in a single bound.

Sure, but where once there was only skill and talent, now you have genetic mutations. it is not the underlying theme of WC. It's like the difference between Call of Duty and Return to Castle Wolfenstein.

That's essentially correct. The story is essentially that the Pilgrim 'ability' is a normal part of human genetic makeup that was 'selected for' in Wing Commander's future because it allowed children born in microgravity a better chance of coming to term. When humans went into space and started to establish colonies, a higher than average number of people with the "super powers" survived to the next generation.

The religious backstory is pretty much what you mentioned, too. Many humans living in the colonies came to feel that their 'superior' abilities were the work of a deity who supported the idea of colonizing space over remaining on Earth... the religion formed from there.

This is all written somewhere, not argueing with it.

Do you see why threads like this have to be knife fights? For every person willing to have an intelligent discussion about the topic there's some other demibrained googlebeast who refuses to contribute anything more than "HAHA! I READ THE THREAD TOPIC!". I take a lot of comfort from the fact that it's not the people on my side of the argument who act this dumb (.....usually).

Yeah, this attitude really makes my life harder.

 

[Delance]

I don't see how 'WW2 in space' is a necessary requirement of the Wing Commander universe.

Well, let's oversimplify! There's two kind of space battles. WW2 in space (carriers, fighters) and WW1 in space (Battleships). Star Wars and Wing Comander is the former, Star Trek is the later.

Sure, it's a different lesson than Star Wars: you don't need to believe in God because you have this ability regardless of what you think. I personally don't think that's a good or satisfying lesson, either... but it's certainly uniquely opposite rather than a direct copy of that of Star Wars.

That’s true, but it’s not opposed on a good way. Anyway, Star Wars is hardly original, so not all similarity could be called a rip off. Anyway, let me make some additional comments on this.

At least in part, Luke had to believe in the force, and not on himself. While “Trust your feelings” is ambiguous, but “Use the force” isn’t. The modern mantra is that you must believe on yourself, and not an exterior power. So “It’s not faith, it’s genetics” it’s not very reassuring, and is in fact somewhat nihilistic. Genetic determinism is a poor substitute for faith, and on movies it’s no different. It would be like Obi-Wan telling Luke “It’s not faith, it’s the midichlorian count in your bloodstream!”

Eh, I think it's just an unfortunate modern trend in consalidation with regards to 'universe creation' in storytelling. You see it throughout the Wing Commander games - the original games (WC1, WC2, etc) created a much more 'broad' universe than the modern ones (WC3, WC4) did. You would have conversations about completely irrelevent issues and topics and all sorts of name dropping that created a huge imaginary universe... and since then we've switched to a 'say only what is important right now, and explain its relationship to reality'. You see it throughout the genres: on Star Trek shows, in Star Wars movies and so forth.

Well put. That makes sensed. The new Star Wars movies still have a little of this, at least on the ensemble of secondary characters on movies that will be very important on other mediums. But in essence that’s correct.

That's what makes Wing Commander great - that it took a very classic gameplay and turned it into something unique. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

We agree on this.

How is this different than the Pilgrims, though? The Pilgrims have a fantastically well explained backstory - one that's better established than pretty much any pre/early war history in Wing Commander.

That's right, it's not different than the Pilgrims, and that's why I mentioned that the boat has already sailed.

Lets address this one more time. How are the Pilgrim abilities a 'super power'? I can't really figure it out.

Well, they are not super powers in the conventional sense of being faster than bullets or flying. But the whole plot of the movie is about how rare and powerful the pilgrim skills are. Even if they are not supernatural, considering their importance, they are, in effect, super powers. When the Kilrathi acquire the Navcom AI, which Paladin tells us it’s nothing but the mind of a pilgrim, Confed is at risk. Blair the one who can save the day using this very power. In the end, however, it manifestation is typing numbers on a keyboard. That can be defined as anti-climatic.

Same goes with Confed fleet blowing up the Kilrathi fleet. Somewhat cool, but it’s not exactly thrilling fleet action. It’s more like target practice.

Even the “jump” of the movie didn't have hold much appeal. The "stop people in the middle of the air" part is cool, but there's no neat “jump” sequence, like on the WC games. Curiously, TPM also lacks the cool “hyperspace” sequences of the original SW movies.

Sure, Neo’s powers on the original Matrix are no more interesting than a “trainer” or “hack” on a computer game. Hey, WCP comes with a built in “invulnerability” option. But on the screen it looks cool. Now were are not talking about the theory behind the powers of Neo or Blair, but how well that plays on the cinema screen. So the problem might not have been just the pilgrim powers themselves, but how they were played.

 

[overmortal]

I was reading this thread, and I fell asleep. I'm sorry I influenced it in this direction. The points and counterpoints have been interesting and thought-provoking, but the whole thing has become overdrawn, with people saying "You're not listening" and then someone else replying "No, you're not listening. Plus you're stupid." Then "No, *you're* not listening, and you're stupid for calling me stupid."

It's just going on and on, like a see-saw manned by bickering children who never get tired or hungry.

 

[Nemesis]

Well, we can only keep trying to change that.

BTW, I'm not answering Nemesis because he did not understand anything I've3 been saying, and he insists on the fact that I complained about simple chronology and continuity, when I clearly said I didn't. He is too stuck up his own little theories to pay any attention to my actual arguments.

No, I find nothing to agree with there.

I think I do understand your criticism and I’m sorry you think I see it as being some simplistic gripe over “chronology and continuity”. Let’s see if I can paraphrase your argument to your satisfaction.

You make what sounds a very serious criticism of the Pilgrim storyline, and specifically an aesthetic one. It’s not simply that there’s the usual problem in coordinating dates and background detail and who-did-what-when, it’s more that the addition of the Pilgrims “damages” or even “destroys” what we previously took WC to be. (Maybe that’s even too strong for you.) I suppose an apt analogy would be if da Vinci, after painting the Mona Lisa as is, decided to paint several of his “flying machines” soaring in the background with people waving. I mean, it “fits”, but it also “changes everything”. Anyway, that’s how I’ve always taken your argument.

And I stand by my previous response. It’s a mistake to see and to criticize WC as if it were a finished or “settled” product, because it’s not; it’s still in the process of being produced. It’s the difference between, say, reading the first Harry Potter book and claiming it’s “bad”, and standing over J.K. Rowling’s shoulder as she writes its chapters, and not in any order, and only piecemeal, and presuming to claim at that point that it’s “bad”.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

BTW, I'm not answering Nemesis because he did not understand anything I've3 been saying, and he insists on the fact that I complained about simple chronology and continuity, when I clearly said I didn't. He is too stuck up his own little theories to pay any attention to my actual arguments.

With all respect I think that, with the exception of the occasional drive by dumbening, this thread has been very intelligent and well mannered... Nemesis has done a good job of replying politely to you, and you to him. There's no need to play "tell {X} I'm not talking to him!"... if you don't want to debate him anymore, just end the conversation honorably.

Sure it doesn't. When could have blair used wrestling in the games? even in the Axius scenes it would have been useless... Anyway, that's so beside the point.

Sure. Why does he stand there when Thrakhath guts him? Why does Space Viking (or the Dolosians) managed to take him captive without a struggle in WCA? You can force yourself to find these questions if you want - the fact that no one does is exactly the point.

LOAF, do you really think that "Blair wrestled when he was younger" is the same magnitude of "there was a whole sect of human race living in the stars that created a weird religion based on subtile genetic mutations and suddenly decided to murder the rest of human race, therefore starting a war that ended AFTER the start of the K-War, and also rearanged the whole history of Blair's life?"

Sure, I don't have any problem with it from a background standpoint. There's several hundred stars on the map included with Prophecy -- are you telling me that nothing interesting ever happened on any of them? You can't go a week without hearing about crazy cults or militant religious groups today... why should the future century be any different?

Heck, something like Action Stations had no problem slipping the exact same sort of background into the Wing Commander universe - with refernces to Turner and Banbridge versus terrorists attacking colonies in the early 2600s. So let me ask you... what's the difference between slipping that into Action Stations and adding the Pilgrims into the Wing Commander movie? Is there anything deeper than the fact that people *liked* Action Stations?

I'm also not sure what you mean by rearranging Blair's life. As far as I know, he *had* no established history, save for the occasional name drop of an extended relative.

Sure, but where once there was only skill and talent, now you have genetic mutations. it is not the underlying theme of WC. It's like the difference between Call of Duty and Return to Castle Wolfenstein.

I don't see that it contradicts anything involving skill ever accomplished in the Wing Commander games. 'I worked my ass off hitting J to jump, and they're taking that away from me!' rings very, very hollow. Hell, the only 'post facto' situation it *might* affect is Blair's "long jump" on Wing Commander Academy.

At least in part, Luke had to believe in the force, and not on himself. While “Trust your feelings” is ambiguous, but “Use the force” isn’t. The modern mantra is that you must believe on yourself, and not an exterior power. So “It’s not faith, it’s genetics” it’s not very reassuring, and is in fact somewhat nihilistic. Genetic determinism is a poor substitute for faith, and on movies it’s no different. It would be like Obi-Wan telling Luke “It’s not faith, it’s the midichlorian count in your bloodstream!”

I'm not arguing with this; I agree... I'm asking why it's wrong? It's not necessarily a positive message, but is there something inherently wrong (and worth dismissing) about the fact that it has a 'nihilistic' message? If anything, I'd think it would be a worthy study of modern thinking versus that which produced Star Wars...

Well, they are not super powers in the conventional sense of being faster than bullets or flying. But the whole plot of the movie is about how rare and powerful the pilgrim skills are. Even if they are not supernatural, considering their importance, they are, in effect, super powers. When the Kilrathi acquire the Navcom AI, which Paladin tells us it’s nothing but the mind of a pilgrim, Confed is at risk. Blair the one who can save the day using this very power. In the end, however, it manifestation is typing numbers on a keyboard. That can be defined as anti-climatic.

Is it really that rare? It ends up that a grand total of four of the movie's eight or so major characters are "Pilgrims" (Blair, Paladin, Sansky & Wilson). I just wonder if you're reading the movie wrong...

Same goes with Confed fleet blowing up the Kilrathi fleet. Somewhat cool, but it’s not exactly thrilling fleet action. It’s more like target practice.

Even the “jump” of the movie didn't have hold much appeal. The "stop people in the middle of the air" part is cool, but there's no neat “jump” sequence, like on the WC games. Curiously, TPM also lacks the cool “hyperspace” sequences of the original SW movies.

I'm not sure I understand - the movie should be disregarded because it isn't exciting? I think I'd have argued that all along - the movie is valuable to me because of the background source material it generates for the rest of the Wing Commander universe, not because of how it tells its own (fairly minor) story.

 

[McGruff]

From shitheel to demibrained googlebeast, I may have skipped a rank.