dextorboot
Spaceman
Is it really considered a sun tan from the middle of the earth???
Knife fight
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
If by "stay away from" you mean "consistently provoke for no reason".
(And rhetoric in an argument? That's almost as bad as using sauce to make pasta.)
(And rhetoric in an argument? That's almost as bad as using sauce to make pasta.)
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
McGruff
Banned
Manic said:Perhaps, yes... but the biggest issue of time travel is this:
You travel back in time, likely you would be in the exact place you were in the time you traveled from... which could be anywhere from in the middle of the earth(instant suntan), to the cold vaccum of space (instant suntan, followed by the "instant weight loss" program... all the water being boiled out of your system... or turned into a chunk of ice.) The earth moves around. Who is to say that you would be relocated to wherever the earth was, even if you could manage time travel?
I guess it would take some "heavy" mathmatical computations to figure out the exact position of the of the exact spot on earth that you want to end up, and even then, who's to say that you won't end up occupying the same space as some dinosaur or Morlok or something. I guess the way aroung that would be to have your time machine double as a spacecraft, so you could do your time traveling in the relative safety of deep space before returning to earth to have your way with Cleopatra.
overmortal
Bearded Person
Having your way with Cleopatra, eh? Hmm . . . interesting.
Delance
Victory, you say?
The thing about the pilgrims is that it has the down-side of "super-powers”, but not the upside. Instead of being a metaphysical force like on Star Wars, the WC movie has just materialism. Star Wars tried to give a rational explanation to the force on TPM with the whole midichlorian thing, and it didn’t really work out, and the same can be said about the pilgrim genes.
Well, LOAF, for a lot of people, the whole Pilgrim Issue felt out of place on the WC universe. Maybe not for you, but I don’t think it’s neither a irrational not unreasonable opinion to have. And, yet the pilgrim powers were not interesting, they were important. It’s a bad thing when the super power of the good guy is to do math and type numbers really fast.
But it’s not like the Pilgrims are the only “fantastic” element on WC. One might say that boat sailed with the Steltek on Privateer, but that game was so good it made that part of the storyline had little impact on this sense. Somehow it wasn’t the same with the movie. It doesn’t work. It’s a very subjective thing, and it cannot be proved or disproved since it’s mostly a matter of taste.
As for WC, it’s not asteroids on 3D. It has a good deal of simulation going on. No power ups, no random crazy stuff typical of games that don't even try. It’s certainly not realistic, but it’s more verisimilar than an purely arcade game. That's for the gameplay part.
On the story party, arguably, Wing Commander is more verisimilar than Star Trek. No super entity of the week, no unexplainable super powers. Heck, chances are any random planet will have a supernatural dude that possess power beyond human comprehension, but will be tricked by some low level intellectual trick.
Specifically the Wing Commander’s Terran Confederation is much verisimilar than the Star Trek’s Federation. People are paid for their work, a very large government can be very incompetent and corrupt, and mankind is organized on a representative democratic system with separate powers, a ruling body, and civilian leadership. The State doesn’t design, build and operate every single vessel that mankind controls and doesn’t have the entire adult population on payroll, since a lot is left for private enterprise.
Well, LOAF, for a lot of people, the whole Pilgrim Issue felt out of place on the WC universe. Maybe not for you, but I don’t think it’s neither a irrational not unreasonable opinion to have. And, yet the pilgrim powers were not interesting, they were important. It’s a bad thing when the super power of the good guy is to do math and type numbers really fast.
But it’s not like the Pilgrims are the only “fantastic” element on WC. One might say that boat sailed with the Steltek on Privateer, but that game was so good it made that part of the storyline had little impact on this sense. Somehow it wasn’t the same with the movie. It doesn’t work. It’s a very subjective thing, and it cannot be proved or disproved since it’s mostly a matter of taste.
As for WC, it’s not asteroids on 3D. It has a good deal of simulation going on. No power ups, no random crazy stuff typical of games that don't even try. It’s certainly not realistic, but it’s more verisimilar than an purely arcade game. That's for the gameplay part.
On the story party, arguably, Wing Commander is more verisimilar than Star Trek. No super entity of the week, no unexplainable super powers. Heck, chances are any random planet will have a supernatural dude that possess power beyond human comprehension, but will be tricked by some low level intellectual trick.
Specifically the Wing Commander’s Terran Confederation is much verisimilar than the Star Trek’s Federation. People are paid for their work, a very large government can be very incompetent and corrupt, and mankind is organized on a representative democratic system with separate powers, a ruling body, and civilian leadership. The State doesn’t design, build and operate every single vessel that mankind controls and doesn’t have the entire adult population on payroll, since a lot is left for private enterprise.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
So you think Wing Commander needs to remain realistic (sorry, 'verisimilar'), but you think the 'Pilgrim Powers' should have been mystical instead of a sci{fi}entific issue? To address both issues:
I mean, I'm not saying I think the 'Pilgrim Power' was a good idea. I do, however, certainly understand why it's there (Blair has absolutely no character or background; he's the player's avatar) and I like it better than the alternative (mystical Border Worlds from the first draft). What I don't see, however, is how it hurts Wing Commander as a whole (as so many people are oft to claim) or how it is in any sense a ripoff of Star Wars. The vast majority of movies are going to give their main character some sort of unique ability... I just don't see it equating with 'the force' (especially in the case of something as useless as Blair's WC movie jumping ability). Maverick is a great pilot, is 'Top Gun' a Star Wars ripoff?
(And heck, Wing Commanders 'lesson' is 180 degrees from that of Star Wars - don't worry about believing in your zany religion... it's bad, but you have this ability regardless of whether you believe in it.)
It strikes me as a huge case of 'wanting to be offended by something'. If you hate the movie, just say you hate the movie - don't hide behind a dumb excuse or go through hoops like this. How can people seriously claim that the movie is bad for being a 'Star Wars ripoff' and then go around claiming they wish it were more like the games? The games are about as close to 'Star Wars - in space!' as you can get. I love the hell out of Wing Commander III, but have you seen how it ends?
Now I think I'm in pretty much the same camp as you with regards to the mysticism -- but I understand that it'd mean even more people crying Star Wars. I appreciate *why* we have the huge scientific explanation in the Confed Handbook (heck, we went into the movie having it) - it's for the people posting to this thread. I personally yearn for some kind of unique religion or mythology to the Wing Commander universe... which is probably one of the reasons I love Privateer II so much, the blank slate sense it has towards 'normal values' (lets face it, the crazy beer religion is a good idea). I think it's a shame that the Pilgrim aspect couldn't be that... but I'm not surprised.
(As for the true value of introducing the Pilgrim background into Wing Commander, allow me to go off on a tangent with regards to the first spinoff novel that the creation of that mythology directly allows. Now I know we've had to put up with half assed 'just like 9/11!' comments about everything from breakfast cereals to Command and Conquer spinoffs in the last three years... but seriously, isn't 'Pilgrim Stars' a lot like the events that followed it? Religious zealot hijacks a starship and go on a suicide run against Earth... and in response Confed cuts back civil liberties for Pilgrims and then rounds them up in detainment camps?)
Sure, Wing Commander has powerups... it just (generally) uses its best aspects (the story) to cover them up. Any given Wing Commander game involves getting a newer ship or better weapons when you get to various points in the game. The fact that they have a talking head show up to explain why you've earned them or how he's magically added extra missiles to your ship doesn't take away from the fact that it's an arcade powerup.
(Except games like Proving Grounds, which feature good old grab-objects-in-space powerups with scant explanation.)
I suspect that all you’re really complaining about is that it was introduced both after and outside of the games in which it had never been mentioned. I agree with LOAF: you just don’t like the movie. If the Pilgrim storyline had been part of WC1, you would never have had any problem with it.
This proves my point. I don’t know of anyone else who has ever pointed to the Steltek as some sort of “unrealistic” storyline. Besides, we know so little about the Steltek, there is no basis for making such a claim. But you know all this anyway, which is why at the same time you try to use the Stelteks as an example of what’s wrong with the Pilgrims, you have to explain why the Stelteks are acceptable. And your rationalization for that–Privateer was such a good game–only points again to your hostility for the movie.
Edfilho
Cry some more!
(Not sarcastic) I'd like to thank Delance for having the patience to explain more clearly what many people feel, and LOAF for taking the time to answer him with a good answer.
LOAF, I agree with you in several points, but there are a few things you mentioned that does not refer to my opinion regarding Pilgrims. I never griped about it being a SW rip off, I merely compared one thing to another. It would've been stupid to complain of such a thing, one might say that every and all Space Sim games a ultimately SW ripoffs, and that would've been stupid.
Another thing, what really bothers me about the whole pilgrim stuff is how, all of a sudden, a whole new dimension is added to the continuity out of the blue... Something that is not inline with the general feel and concept of the WCU. We started with a few morsels of info in the Claw Marks, then the SMs, than WC2, books, FMV games, more books... Even if wildly new info was fed to us with each iteration, and several pieces of hard Data weren't quite the same (dates, specs, numbers etc.) that didn't matter, because the concept was respected. Even the cartoon, with it's load of facts that somehow appeared to conflict with previous info, was in the WC spirit, and so most of us tried to make it fit. Then comes the Movie ("MY God, a WC Movie, directed by CR? Great!") and suddenly it is talking about a lot of things which belong in another concept, some huge historical facts which were not even hinted at the previous material were dropped at our laps... I would dislike the Pilgrim concept even if I had Liked the movie. I do not fret about the ships looking different or the Bossman deal, etc etc. It is the alien-ness of the Pilgrim concept that bothers me. I cannot see it meshing into the WCU, not only because of fictional history weirdness, but because of its non "WW2 in space/War-peace complicated dynamics" "fell". It is like we sit down at a theater to watch Ep3. and the first scene is ObiWan in a bussiness suit drinking a Latte in a starbucks near his JediCorp. Offices in NY. Ok, that was little exagerated, but I need to make my point clear.
Concerning the power ups, sure, we do get upgrades, but apart from PG they're not floating in space with a translucent glow...
LOAF, I agree with you in several points, but there are a few things you mentioned that does not refer to my opinion regarding Pilgrims. I never griped about it being a SW rip off, I merely compared one thing to another. It would've been stupid to complain of such a thing, one might say that every and all Space Sim games a ultimately SW ripoffs, and that would've been stupid.
Another thing, what really bothers me about the whole pilgrim stuff is how, all of a sudden, a whole new dimension is added to the continuity out of the blue... Something that is not inline with the general feel and concept of the WCU. We started with a few morsels of info in the Claw Marks, then the SMs, than WC2, books, FMV games, more books... Even if wildly new info was fed to us with each iteration, and several pieces of hard Data weren't quite the same (dates, specs, numbers etc.) that didn't matter, because the concept was respected. Even the cartoon, with it's load of facts that somehow appeared to conflict with previous info, was in the WC spirit, and so most of us tried to make it fit. Then comes the Movie ("MY God, a WC Movie, directed by CR? Great!") and suddenly it is talking about a lot of things which belong in another concept, some huge historical facts which were not even hinted at the previous material were dropped at our laps... I would dislike the Pilgrim concept even if I had Liked the movie. I do not fret about the ships looking different or the Bossman deal, etc etc. It is the alien-ness of the Pilgrim concept that bothers me. I cannot see it meshing into the WCU, not only because of fictional history weirdness, but because of its non "WW2 in space/War-peace complicated dynamics" "fell". It is like we sit down at a theater to watch Ep3. and the first scene is ObiWan in a bussiness suit drinking a Latte in a starbucks near his JediCorp. Offices in NY. Ok, that was little exagerated, but I need to make my point clear.
Concerning the power ups, sure, we do get upgrades, but apart from PG they're not floating in space with a translucent glow...
Edfilho
Cry some more!
Nemesis said:
If it was introduced in WC1, it would have been a part of the game universe, so how would we complain about it...
But I just realized something. What actually bothered me about pilgrims was that the new concept was show to us as ALWAYS HAVING EXISTED in this universe we thought we knew so well... If pilgrims showed up as a NEW element, starting from the new story, it would have been ok. Like Nephlim... Which, of course, always existed but confed had never heard about. The pilgrim idea seems weird because it would have created a strong tension inside Confed and between characters that was (obviously) completely absent from the games. Jazz would surelly have used Blair's pilgrim ascendancy to accuse him and so on. That's why it all felt so tacked on.
I have not read the books, I'm speaking solelly of the Movie.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
As an aside, Wing Commander was initially proposed as a Star Wars game. Origin showed a demo of the technology to LucasVariable and asked to be granted the Star Wars rights. We've come a long way since then.
That's exactly what Nemesis said, though. You have no problem with continuity issues in any of the products you *like*, but when it comes to the movie you feel it's different and wrong.
The WC Movie follows the 'World War II in space' thing fairly closely, though - from opening with an attack on Space-Pearl Harbor to the fact that the entire movie is WW2 style machine gun dogfights with WW2 style space-Corsairs (complete with rotary engine blocks and gull-wings...).
Well, there's the matter of the Stormfire in the WC4 Demo...
It's just a standard retcon - they're common throughout all aspects of fandom. It just strikes me as weird to be able to complain about it because *anything* you say about Blair's background will be a retcon of some sort... since none of it was established. No one complained when they learned he'd been a wrestler in High School in the WCP Guide (G)
(There are plenty of situations later on in Wing Commander where you can go 'maybe this happened because he's a Pilgrim!'... but the novels pretty much get rid of Pilgrims alltogether shortly after the events of the movie, so it's not really worth theorizing about.)
Do we really need another series of sarcastic remarks? Read the damned thread.
Edfilho
Cry some more!
Bandit LOAF said:
Now that's something I didn't know...
Bandit LOAF said:
Not really... I said that all the differences and divergence issues that appeared because of other products were factual, data and dates and stuff. I said that I didn't mind those kinds things in the movie. Example: Bossman's (un)death, the look of ships, minor conflicts with WC1's chronology... I can overlook those. The problem for me was when a conflicting concept (humans with supernatural powers and it's legacy) and conflicting major events (the whole pilgrim war thing - that's way too important to be forgotten) were shoved into the story without concerns... But as Delance already said, that's our problem. I've realised what a waste of time it would be to nag endlessly about this stuff... Even if I snipe a remark every now and then.
Bandit LOAF said:
True, true, I was refering not o the movie as a whole, but to the pilgrim concept in particular.
Bandit LOAF said:Well, there's the matter of the Stormfire in the WC4 Demo...
Ehehe, I've forgotten that. But it's just a demo, shhhh....
Bandit LOAF said:
Granted, but the fact that Blair was a wrestler has no bearing on the rest of the games and books and dates and data etc. The fact that he is a bastard pilgrim, a splinter race who tried to destroy humankind just as we fought the first kats, and that these pilgrims have special mental powers (no matter how useless they are) is not just a pretty curiosity about his past.
Bandit LOAF said:
Thank God for that. Adding up all WC stuff is already a tough job without Pilgrims
Bandit LOAF said:
Yeah, that comment was pretty unwanted.
Delance
Victory, you say?
Yes and no. What I think is that there shouldn’t be any powers to begin with, however, once you make the leap, let some mysticism kick in. The whole materialism is borderline nihilistic and not very satisfying on any level. Yes, the pilgrims have a religion and a background, but on the movie you have Obi-Wan telling Luke that he doesn’t need faith, since he has nice genes. Somehow, it’s harder to buy that, not that the random Yoda mumbling about how loving your relative makes you evil is a lot better.
But when you try to give a rational explanation, people tend to dump their suspension of disbelief. That’s most likely the source of much of the rejection for the midicholrian thing. On a note, that’s also probably why shows like X-Files tend to let a lot of the stuff in the open, since any detailed explanation would probably make it such, since it can’t match up what’s happening on the audience own imagination.
Hey, here’s a new theory for you. Maybe, Wing Commander is so verisimilar in nature that people tend to have low tolerance for that stuff. And I’m not talking about the fanbase expectation, just the overall look of the movie and games. That’s why, of all space movies with sound on space, the audience tend to care about the whole space sonar scene. Come on, it’s not like its less ‘realistic’ than any random detail on your preferred space opera. Maybe it crossed a mental line, or was in some way too “obvious”.
AOTC has absurd stuff like a useless yet cool solar sail for Dooku’s ship, wings too small to support flying Watto, and space “seismic” charges, but somehow people swallow it without much problem. But they don’t when Obi-Wan uses “south” to describe a system's location, what’s in fact makes sense, according to Phil Plait on Bad Astronomy.
I think the verisimilar aspect of WC is relevant. Wing Commander was designed to look and feel realistic, but in a fun way. I wouldn’t put it on the same boat of space invader or any random scroller or rail shooter like some folk. I don’t think that receiving a new fighter model for testing on the carrier or having some experimental upgrade classifies as the same as power ups. Yes, there’s the Armada “proving grounds” that I’m intentionally ignoring, but we can consider it the expectation that proves the rule. Well, I can at least.
Addressing the other points. People shouldn’t “hide” behind anything about their opinion on the movie. Also, I agree that there's no reason to complain about rip-offs, considering how Star Wars itself is a rip-off of old sci-fi series and WWII movies. And it’s not like any of this is a secret, the ATOC DVD has people explaining how the movie borrows looks from Flash Gordon, and some cool WWII movie footage played in parallel to scenes from the Battle of Yavin. Same goes to Wing Commander, which was originally going to be a Star Wars game. And yet, WC turned out to be quite unique, and it stand out on a ocean of generic sci-fi universes.