I can't say that I agree with their conclusion

Wedge009

Rogue Leader
I think this comparison is as bad as the argument as to which carrier would win in a Midway vs Vesuvius fight. I doubt Luke Skywalker and Christopher Blair - should they happen to meet in some twisted plane of a multiverse (heh, heh, The One :)) - would actually be in a situation where they would fight each other. As a Jedi, Luke would not choose violent aggression unless all other avenues had been exhausted. And as for Maverick? I can't think of any reason why he would want to - or even be ordered to - attack Skywalker.

Nevertheless, if we take it as a purely hypothetical situation - just as a thought experiment, I guess - I honestly wouldn't know who would win in a dogfight, especially if you put them in identical ships. I'd much rather that they'd talk about the good times over a drink or two. :)
 

Anxiety

Rear Admiral
Joker057 said:
Also as a Jedi, Skywalker would not be able to utilize the force to kill someone otherwise he would be crossing over to the Dark Side of the force like his father.
Jedi can use the force to kill without travelling to the darkside. In Return we see Luke force choke a Gamorian guard in Jabba's palace, although he may not have killed him. Also, in the Thrawn books, Luke is attacked and throws in lightsaber, using the force to make it like a type of boomerang; spinning around and coming back to him. That could be considered using the force to kill his enemies. Other Jedi have killed, possibly using the force to do so, without during to the Dark Side. I believe it is killing in anger that can contribute to going to the Dark Side, although there are other ways to convert to the Dark Side, as seen in Dooku.

Now to the point, the circumstances of their meeting. If it was just a one on one battle, it is very possible that Luke could underestimate his foe, possibly allowing Blair a quick victory. Now they met in an actual full fledge battle, Luke would probably use the force to get an easy victory on his side. Also if the Excalibur had a cloaking device on him, he could easily get Luke by sneaking up behind him. Also if Blair could tail him long enough to get a missile lock, then Luke is most likely dead, although it is possible that Luke would evade the missile, possibly by using the force.
 

Wedge009

Rogue Leader
Uh oh, I don't want to get dragged into the debate, but I have to respond to a few points there.

The finer points of what constitutes the Light and Dark side of the Force has been debated endlessly in the novels, and I know they may not be considered 'canon' by many, there is clearly a very shady area between the Light and the Dark.

I doubt cloaking devices would work against a Jedi, unless the battle is so chaotic that Luke does not realise that he's being attacked by an invisible fighter. If Luke knows there are invisible fighters in battle, I'm sure it'd be a simple matter to use the Force to sense the pilots' minds and intentions.
 
He is afraid of how close he was getting the the Darkside in the Thrawn Campaign. I remember reading all the UE stuff, with Luke going to the darkside in Dark Empire, and how he has spent the last decade or more (15-20 years) dealing with the reprecussions of falling. In the last NJO book he comes to terms with that fear and becomes even greater than what he was before, since his powers had stagnated since he was afraid to take the final step. It is not what you use the force for, it is what you use it for. Some powers should garnish dark side stuff though, anything that directly changes nature, like force lightning, drain life, or life force transferral.

Between Blair and Skywalker, not a fair comparision, kinda like comparing kirk and picard, two different things that have huge fanbases which no one can agree on. Blair is an accomplished (if not the greatest pilot)in Confed, while Skywalker is considered one of the best Snubfighter pilots in the galaxy. Technology considerations, almost oil and vinegar, while Confed technology is advanced the same can be said for SW technology (crossing the galaxy in months instead of years or decades is quite an accomplishment).

Though I can probably say that the empire would beat confed, a stand up war is what the empire excells at.
 

JediLow

Spaceman
Why is it necessary that having the Force automatically makes Luke invincible? Jedi do die...

(Blair all the way, hes a superior pilot)
 
I'd have to take Luke in the hand-to-hand arena. Piloting skills.....well, that is tougher. The AI in most of the SW based games I've played isn't that good, nor is it as consistent compared to what I've experienced in WC. Just remember- YOU are Blair in WC III and IV. I'd take an X-wing over any other fighter in the SW Universe, but how would it fare against an Excalibur, a Rapier, a Dragon, or any other of Confed's best? Hard to say. Then the whole Jedi things has to be considered.....man, I'm giving myself a headache :eek:
 

Fenris Ulven

Spaceman
arr, what can the voodo magic to against one pilot thats sitting many clicks away? I would just givin the x-wing a salvo of all my rocket, then he would been dead.
 
I dunno, he can use the vodoo to make you not see him, to know where the rockets will be before they get there, to look into your mind to know what you are going to do, to make you not want to fight.

It doesn't really matter who would whin, it is all conjecture. I am a big WC fan, but I am also a huge SW fan. I think I would go with someone else's opinion, Blair and Skywalker would probably sit down and talk. Blair would attack if he wasn't hostile and Luke, after becoming a Jedi would never make the opening attack.
 

Jason_Ryock

Vice Admiral
I think Luke would win in a hand to hand fight, cause he's got the force. And there's a few other points I'd like to touch on:

The cloaking device on the Excalibure wouldn NOT prevent Luke from sensing Blair and his ship through the Force - Remember, the force is a part of EVERYTHING.

While the ships from Wing Commander ARE much heavier, they deal out more damage, they are also less manuverable then an X-Wing, and possibly slower as well, but I won't argue that cause there's no hard evidence in anyway.

As for your utterly useless "Luke has one combat mission under his belt" crap, I have just one thing to say to you: ROGUE SQUADRON. Contrary to popular belief it was not formed by Wedge Antilles, it was formed by Luke Skywalker shortly after the Battle of Yavin, and he in fact served with the squadron for a short time between ESB and ANH. By the time of ESB alone, while he hasn't been trained as a Jedi he HAS retained the rank of Commander (The movie refers to him twice as Commander Skywalker) which is the standard accepted rank for commanding a fighter Squadron in the SW universe.

We see more evidence of his skill with a starfighter later in the Thrawn Books, again in the Corellian trilogy (He easily defeats six on one odds) and for those of you who have read the New Jedi Order books, he's one helluva Jedi pilot there too.

Technology wise, any missile fired at Luke would easily be deflected by the Force, as well as any kind of particle weapon. It just wouldn't do any good.

that being said, the article leaves out a rather significant point which makes my post and this whole thread pointless: Which era Luke Skywalker are we talking about?
 

Fenris Ulven

Spaceman
Jason_Ryock said:
I think Luke would win in a hand to hand fight, cause he's got the force. And there's a few other points I'd like to touch on:

The cloaking device on the Excalibure wouldn NOT prevent Luke from sensing Blair and his ship through the Force - Remember, the force is a part of EVERYTHING.

While the ships from Wing Commander ARE much heavier, they deal out more damage, they are also less manuverable then an X-Wing, and possibly slower as well, but I won't argue that cause there's no hard evidence in anyway.
Just two comments:

1. luke is from another universe then blair, maybe theres nothing like the force in blairs univers, therefore he cant see the ship or blair trough the force.

2. do you realy mean that the x-wing is more manurvable the excal. excal does even have a auto slide (havent figure how to use it :rolleyes: ).
 
Any ship can auto-slide in SW, they don't have ramscoops so they won't slow down when you simply kill thrust to the engines.

It is rough to say which fighters are better, considering that the SW fighters have no technical information which goes to the depth of what we know about wing commander technology.

You are right about the cloaking device, Luke would be able to "see" it still because of the force, and any weapon that was physical and solid could technically be deflected (though only when look reaches his pinnacle of power).

Luke is a great pilot, I think it was Vector Prime when Jaina solo races in an asteriod track of Lando's, she was going to beat the best time but crashed (I think that is what happened), and luke flew out to rescue her. He aced it, better than anyone ever did. In WC3 novel Blair couldn't beat 5 dralthi IVs with Hobbes help, in Dark Force Rising Luke single handedly defeats a huge number of tie's (I can't remember how many), he surrendured himself to the force, he and han defeated everything. What did Han say "Are you going to chase them back to the base."

The pilot does make the fighter, and to compare them isn't really fair, in all honesty Luke's reflexes are faster than any human's.
"I am the only human who can do it"
"You must have Jedi Reflexes"
Ring a bell.

However this debate is pretty much pointless, almost as much as Kirk vs Picard debates, so we should probably let it go lol.
 

RiotAct218

Spaceman
BlackJack2064 said:
The pilot does make the fighter, and to compare them isn't really fair, in all honesty Luke's reflexes are faster than any human's.
"I am the only human who can do it"
"You must have Jedi Reflexes"
Ring a bell.
Ugh, but that's like saying "midichlorians" or whatever actually mean anything at all. Although Ep1 was written by George Lucas, I'm still not buyin' it. Remember in the good ol' days when anyone could be a Jedi? You just had to learn the force, you didn't have to be endowed with little blood-cell thingies. :rolleyes:
 

TurboTim07

Rear Admiral
BlackJack2064 said:
in Dark Force Rising Luke single handedly defeats a huge number of tie's (I can't remember how many)
im a big fan of SW and WC so nothing against Luke or anything but i do have to point out something. TIEs have no shields. period. you can check it yourself. they don't have any. even in the games they don't have shields. now. you go out and fly against fighters without shields whereas you do and how many would you kill?
 
Not everyone can be a Jedi though, you have to be born with the innate talent, or have it "woke" up inside of you. That is pretty much explained in EU.

Not all TIEs are sheildless, I can name three off the top of my head that do. TIE advanced, TIE Defender, and Admiral Thrawn's Upgraded TIE Interceptors. TIEs generally attack when they have a pretty substantial numerical advantage, like 4 to one, were having no shields isn't as important if you are able to draw fire, and keep your opponent on the offensive.

X-wing shields aren't all that powerful either, The difference is probably right about a X-wing and an unshielded TIE and lets say a Hellcat and a Dralthi IV (which sheilds are rated at not to much more than a third of Hellcat). Between the Video games, game material and EU, X-wing shields deflect one maybe two shots, (even less in the movies).
 

Jason_Ryock

Vice Admiral
Thrawn used upgraded bombers, not upgraded interceptors, called the Schimitar TIE Bomber. TIE Defenders are rated at 300k a piece and are to expensive for the Empire to mass produde. The handful they own are hidden in places like the Emporers storehouse on Wayland and aren't in active service.

And the TIE Advanced....well, the differance between the shields on the TIE Advanced and the X-Wing is the same as with the Hellcat and the Dralthi, worse if what I've heard about it is true. I always used to fly it in XVT thinking it was better cause it had shields...but really its shields just sucks.

However, you did leave a shielded Imperial fighter off of your list...namely the Assualt Gunboat, which is roughly comparable to a Y-Wing, with a slight edge.

In addition to all that there are numerous refrences to the durability of the X-Wing, even after it's lots it shields. The most noteable refrence comes from the Essential Guide to Vehicles and vessels. In the sections detailing the E-Wing it mentions how the E-Wing can absorv even more damage then the famed X-Wing, and goes on to detail about the newer shield system and hull rating.

Of course, there is no telling if SW Shields would even stop Wing Commander energy weapons. We know it has particle shields in some form, since it can stop concussion missiles and more then two Laser Hits, yes, in the movie we see fighters (X-Wings) survive more then two laser hits, and there's alot of that in the EU too. In the games I've had TIEs unload full energy into me and still be alive. Even after a concussion missile or two. In the books it's better: X-Wings hardly ever lose their shields except when going against capital ships or ground turrets. And the comics? Shoot, the X-Wings never seem to loose their shields in the comics. I'm not sure where you're coming from saying the EU ships never take more then two hits.

Speficially I'll list my sources, just so you can know where I'm coming from: X-Wing, TIE Fighter, X-Wing Vs. TIE Fighter, X-Wing Alliance, Rogue Squadron Novel and the eight other books in the series, The Phantom Affair-Mandatory retirment comic book series.
 
He had a select group of interceptors equipped with sheild generators since they were to valuable to lose. That info is from a thrawn trilogy guide.

Wouldn't be to much fun as a game to die when you get shot once, and in those games you need to be able to take alot of damage since your sheilds don't recharge unless you change your power settings.

One of the things about Rogue Squadron, they don't bat an eye unless they are fighting more than 2 star destroyers and all thier fighters (72 a piece) then they say they can hold them off till they have to back off. I think that happened in Shadows of the Empire.

I liked the X-wing novels I read, which was like 7 of them, those some of the prequel books and the some of the young jedi knights are the only novels I haven't read, but I have all the material.

The assualt gunboat only shows up in those games I think, I have never seen it in any of the books. Star Destroyers are cake in those games too.

The same can be said for Wing Commander shields, laser cannons in Star Wars aren't typical lasers. Star Wars ships do have particle shields, they work alot like navigational deflecters from star trek.

In the movies not to many fighters survived unless they were flown by a main character. Luke and Wedge, everybody else got wasted, it can't be all that durable since it is about the same length and size of an Epee.

The Y-wing is actually more durable than the X-wing, it is merely old, I am wouldn't be surprised if it makes an appearance in Ep III, I heard that the Z-95 head hunter might.

I can concede that more than likely, probably certainly, that WC fighters are better suited for combat than SW. Speed...that is a difficult thing to place, in regular space I might be inclined to saw WC might be ahead, though a SW ship will always beat a WC fighter in a race over distance.

WC has the advantage in carriers, while SW has the advantage in in capital ships. The Confederation couldn't beat the Empire, hell Confed, the Kilrathi Empire, and the Border Worlds couldn't beat the Empire. Considering the largest ship is the Hvar'kan at 22km, the empire has "alot" of command ships and they are over 16km long and armed a hell of a lot better.

But as I said before, this is all conjectural and doesn't really mean everything.
 

Fenris Ulven

Spaceman
confed did have a "death star" that were much more mobile then the empires death star. Confed had temblor bomb. wc empires could do much more stellar manuplation.

one thing i dont like in SW is that they travel in light speed. if you do it you will also travel in time.
 
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