Yay, US Navy and Confed equivalencies again. The WC military doesn't tell the public everything, in a few cases that we know of, it outright lies to them. So whats the difference in saying "oh, a craft can do Mach 2" when it really can clip along at Mach 2.6 and saying "oh, this capship can carry 40 smaller fighters (cruiser)" when it can carry closer to 80 of any type (fleet carrier)?Concordia said:Unlikely. Navy Ship class . . .
Enigma wrapped in a . . . nevermind. I'm pretty sure the Waterloo cruiser was never designed to carry a full-size bomber (I may be wrong since this is off the top of a slightly 'influenced' brain), so it would never be suspected as a testing ground for a new bomber. Anyhow, I was just making a comment that the military minds of the time, highly involved in their counter-counter-intelligence ploys, could have thought it necessary to pull something like this to throw the Kilrathi off. A valuable fleet carrier off on a assignment would raise suspicions enough to warrant more investigation from the Kilrathi intelligence network. A cruiser off on an assignment could be written off as normal Confed operations. Basically long story short (too late I know) if its not out of the ordinary, it won't get special scrutiny. That would be the reasoning, far-fetched. . . sure, logically flawed . . . you decide.Concordia said:As for your comment about it being classified as a Cruiser instead of a Carrier to hide their testing of Crossbow Bombers is a bit far-fetched. Why would you need to do that? You could say it's a carrier and not have to admit to testing Crossbows off of it. Just because it's a carrier doesn't mean it's launching Crossbows, under that logic, every Confed Carrier should be carrying Crossbows.
Bandit LOAF said:Wait, we're just going in circles now -- we already talked about how Blair probably didn't know it was configured as a carrier because the fact that it was being used to test fighter prototypes was a secret...
Bandit LOAF said:So... your entire argument boils down to "I guess the stats are wrong so that I can be right"? THINK.
This is ridiculous. There is a war going on. Nothing is public knowledge, because public knowledge is enemy knowledge. Above all, at a point in time when Confed is down to five or six carriers, they sure as hell are not going to let the enemy know that they have an ace in the hole.Concordia said:Unlikely. Navy Ship class (Cruiser/Destroyer) listings are public knowledge; even civilians know this. Their specs may be classified or certain capabilities they may have may be (for example, a military aircraft listed of being capable of Mach 2.0 may be actually faster, let's say 2.6). Some may consider an additional 20 fighters as an example of this. Since it was said somewhere that they could be reconfigured as a carrier, this does not seem to be the case. The U.S.S. Lexington (CV-2) was originally a Battlecruiser. When it was converted to a Carrier it was openly listed as being a Carrier. It wasn't listed as CA-2, it was listed as CV-2
1.) Blair refers to the Gettysburg as a cruiser. While it may have been refitted to fleet-carrier status by End Run, it was still a cruiser then (WC2:SO1). Whether it carried 40, 60, or 80 fighters, it was still listed as a *cruiser*. Tolwyn did not correct him, although during this conversation, Tolwyn seemed in somewhat of a hurry so he might not have corrected Blair. But, don't you think Devereaux would have mentioned it? She, to my knowledge, made no mention of this thing being reconfigured as a carrier. And Devereaux was fully briefed on this matter. Don't you think she would tell Blair that he's flying against a Carrier instead of a Cruiser... that rather than facing 40 fighters being thrown at him, he's facing 80? That's kind of an important detail.
2.) I don't know if the Waterloo is the same as the Fralthi, but the Fralthi was listed as being able to be convertable into a Cruiser or a LIGHT Carrier. It seems as if the Waterloo's come in two variants, the 40 fighter variant, and the 60+ fighter variant. While the 60+ fighter-variant does seem to be like a light-carrier, they both seem to be called cruisers. Light Carriers are generally not the same as Fleet Carriers. Fleet Carriers are either Medium or Heavy Carriers. Every single Fleet Carrier in WC I can think of, carries more than 40 or 60 fighters. The Concordia-Class carries 96, the Bengal-Class carries 104, the Confederation-Class (while also a dreadnought) carries 120.
hehe, except when its called a destroyer in WCATV .Bandit LOAF said:. . . how many times is the Ras Nik'hra called a *cruiser*? 99.9% of the time? . . .
Bandit LOAF said:The problem is that you are taking at face value dialogue from someone who, the game later explicitly reveals, is *NOT* privy to the details of the Gettysburg's mission.
You are *assuming* that for some reason the dialogue will issue an imaginary 'correction'. This is NOT HOW DIALOGUE IS WRITTEN.
Get ready for a shocker: the Waterloo is *not* a Fralthi!
Furthermore, we have absolutely no idea how many fighters the carrier version of the Waterloo has. We know it has *more than* sixty - Blair alone encounters sixty of them. Blair is one of 120 pilots flying sorties in the Rigel System.
Furthermore, 'Light Carrier' is short for 'Light Fleet Carrier' - just like 'Heavy Carrier' is short for 'Heavy Fleet Carrier'.
Quarto said:As for Blair, we don't watch him 24 hours a day. Do you really think he was sent out on that mission with only the name of the capship he was looking for? He probably had an additional, detailed briefing while we weren't watching.
And not showing a detailed-mission in the game is stupid. That's what you're *supposed* to see. Not the stupid little stuff. For example, you don't see Blair urinating, even though we obviously know all healthy humans can, why? Because it doesn't have anything to do with the story. However, a Cruiser with a mutineeing airwing (and probably some crew) which normally carries 40-fighters, now carrying 60 is a big detail.
Bandit LOAF said:... the next logical flaw is, of course, that the conversation you're wetting yourself over is the *DEBRIEFING*. Blair, whom you have so-wisely 'deduced' will be privy to all the knowledge in the universe before being sent off to engage the Gettysburg, was NOT TOLD OF THE SITUATION AT ALL, DESPITE BEING SENT AS A FORWARD SCOUT. Tolwyn has Blair jump to Rigel, Blair engages Ferrets and Epees and *THEN* Tolwyn goes 'Oh, heh, yeah, we knew that'd happen.".
You'd also think that Blair, having attended Concordia's Magic Briefing, would know about the fact that the Gettysburg is carrying a squadron of Confed's new, most advanced bomber craft... but, again, no, it's an "after the fact" revelation.
Manic said:What about the Mandarins? They could have been bringing in more stolen fighters to protect the newly captured carrier... Considering that a mutiny is seldom unaminous, things could have gotten bloody, and they'd need crew from somewhere... and there's no sensible way it could have held enough fighters to stave off Blair AND 119 of his closest friends... Seeing as Blair kills around 60 on his own, and there are a total of 120 pilots flying sorties, the total number of fighters is likely gargantuan. After all, Chris can't be the only fella out there in the sector these mutineers came across... which means that several fighters must have been available to the Gettysburg's disposal... or to it's escorts. Sure. we never hear about them, but it is a distinct possibility that the Mandarins were lending support. In fact, the majority of the fighters Blair encountered might not have been brought along by the Gettysburg after all.
Now you're just inventing wholly fictional scenarios concerning people and a situation you are completely unfamiliar with.Concordia said:To be honest. I'm guessing they just wrote enough fighters to make it difficult, planned for the Gettysburg to be a cruiser, and forgot about the Gettysburg 40 fighter compliment.
What about the Mandarins? They could have been bringing in more stolen fighters to protect the newly captured carrier... Considering that a mutiny is seldom unaminous, things could have gotten bloody, and they'd need crew from somewhere... and there's no sensible way it could have held enough fighters to stave off Blair AND 119 of his closest friends... Seeing as Blair kills around 60 on his own, and there are a total of 120 pilots flying sorties, the total number of fighters is likely gargantuan. After all, Chris can't be the only fella out there in the sector these mutineers came across... which means that several fighters must have been available to the Gettysburg's disposal... or to it's escorts. Sure. we never hear about them, but it is a distinct possibility that the Mandarins were lending support. In fact, the majority of the fighters Blair encountered might not have been brought along by the Gettysburg after all.
Under your logic, he would have been told of it being "actually" a carrier around the time that he found out about the Broadsword... after he got all those fighters thrown at him.