Hey Bandit (LOAF)

[Bandit LOAF]

Since I don't know exactly what the Trafalgar (Jutland-class) would look like or specs on it, I could use Bandit's help. I assume these landing shuttles are about the same size as the Broadsword. I'm guessing a carrier that could carry 60-broadsword sized craft and an extra five since carriers often carry five extra shuttles anyway, would be sufficient size for a carrier of this description. I have a feeling that it should carry suffient armament to be able to put up a decent fight. My take on it is like a miniature Bengal carrying only Marine Shuttles and a few fighters (like Epee's and stuff, or even a few small jump-capable fighters.) Length is anyone's guess. It could be long and thin, short and fat, or some moderate figure.

Heya,
I'll be happy to transcribe the limited specs that I have for it... but someone will have to remind me when I'm at home (G) I generally don't do much CZing when I'm not at work, so if you could IM me to ask for them I'd be greatful (AIM: BanditLOAF).

(I don't think your take is right, though -- it's a heavily armed fleet carrier, not a troopship.)

As for the other 70-ships... 70 other ships... Confed ships only? Or does that include the sum of ALL ships participating excluding the Carriers?

Confed line ships. Destroyers/Frigates/Cruisers/etc.

I would rather change the Gettysburg to the TCS-Confederation. Chances are it was around in 2667, and it was definetly a fleet carrier. As for designation, CVS-14, or CVS-64, are all appropriate. While CVS-14 is appropriate, it could just be a bogus-number, or another Confederation class carrier other than the TCS-Confederation. Keep in mind WC2 was in 2665 and by then there were 5 Confederation-Class Carriers in service... two probably were destroyed through one way or another (PTC failures most likely).

Chances are it *wasn't* around in 2667 -- since we've got a pretty accurate list of which ships were in service at that point (thanks to numbers from the novels and names from other sources). Check it out here: http://www.hamtwoslices.net/loaf/fleetcarriers.html

(At the start of 2667, Confed had the Ark Royal, Austerlitz, Concordia, Liberty, Trafalgar, Viper, Washington and Winterrowed. They lost the Trafalgar, Viper and Washington over the course of the year... and another Jutland-class (unnamed) entered service.)

This is a related question....From WC1 the TCS Austin, what class was it, I can't quite remember but I don't think it was a carrier, or at least a Concordia or a Bengal, I don't recall if you ever meet in or not, but I have a suspiscion that it wasn't a real carrier either.

A couple of sources have diverged to make something weird.

* According to Jazz in Super Wing Commander, the Austin is "larger than the Tiger's Claw".

* In Secret Missions 2, you can see (but not target) an Exeter for a moment before the Austin jumps out.

* According to Freedom Flight, the Austin is a "Gettysburg class cruiser".

My take, therefore, is that the Gettysburg-class is a type of 'supercruiser' along the lines of the WC Movie's Concordia-class... essentially a battleship (with a single fighter squadron). It makes sense, then, that Tolwyn's flag is the Austin -- since it'd previously been the Concordia (supercruiser).

Thanks Sly, that is where Doomsday and Jazz came from right, and I kind of remember something about Angel going over there to take over thier wing, but that might be from the Freedom Flight Novel.

Yup, you're right on all accounts.

 

[Sylvester]

Well, it says that 4 confederation class ships, including concordia were in servoce in '67. Where are the bengals on the list?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

It doesn't say that. The only Confederation class ship listed for 2667 is the Concordia (3).

There are no Bengals on the list.

 

[Sylvester]

Well, it lsits 4 in '65 but does'nt list them destroyed.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Because we don't know when they were destroyed -- but since they're not listed in 67, they must have been destroyed at some point.

 

[Chernikov]

Psych - Were pre-release renders of your work posted somewhere? I think ive seen something similar and, quite frankly, it rocked. Props if that was your secret project.

 

[psych]

Sorry man, but I hadn't posted it anywhere. There's only two people besides me who saw the early concept art of the Jutland-class and knows what it looks like. However, I'm glad to know you are looking forward to it.

 

[BlackJack2063]

When you were talking about the carriers bandit, what about the Wolfhound, End Run described it as the sister ship to the long lost Tiger's Claw.

 

[Chernikov]

Yeah, I found what I was thinking of and its the Gettysburg apparently. Still, pretty damn sweet, although Im starting to formulate theories about modular section construction in the WC1 era...

 

[psych]

When you were talking about the carriers bandit, what about the Wolfhound, End Run described it as the sister ship to the long lost Tiger's Claw.

The Wolfhound is a Bengal-class strike carrier. It was counted as a major carrier in End Run if I remember correctly.

 

[BlackJack2063]

Yeah it was Banbridge (I think it was that guy) was his carrier. I remember the Admiral trying to get Kevin over on his flightwing with Hobbes, to keep him safe instead of going with Bondarevesky on "Mission to Kilrah".
I can't remember if it is destroyed there, or later at the battle of earth, or maybe at Sirius. LOAF would probably know.

 

[psych]

It'll be safe to say that it's dead. One possibility would be it was still trapped in the Lunar drydocks in the Battle of Earth and it was destroyed, a very possible idea I'm putting on my webpage.

 

[BlackJack2063]

I thought they pushed the two carriers in dry dock out cold, with no reactors to be used as targets, and so they could launch fighters.
I am sure it was destroyed, by I can't remember where, time to read FLeet Action again.

 

[psych]

There were five total carriers lost in actual combat in the Battle of Earth campaign (Verdun, Moskva, Ark Royal, Leyte Gulf, and Lexington). Yes, the Lexington and Ark Royal got their engines lined up and fought. But there were three other carriers still hopelessly dry docked, and they were destroyed. And this doesn't count the Lunar shipyards, in which an undetermined number of carriers were being constructed.

 

[Concordia]

Heya,
I'll be happy to transcribe the limited specs that I have for it... but someone will have to remind me when I'm at home (G) I generally don't do much CZing when I'm not at work, so if you could IM me to ask for them I'd be greatful (AIM: BanditLOAF).

Sure, I'd like to hear it. *prepares to scribble notes*

(I don't think your take is right, though -- it's a heavily armed fleet carrier, not a troopship.)

Understood.

Confed line ships. Destroyers/Frigates/Cruisers/etc.

So, Waterloos, Gettysburgs (Class-Cruisers, not the TCS-Gettysburg), a few Talahassee's, for cruisers, a couple of Caernaven's, or some other frigate which is not yet specified, and Gilgameshes, a few Exeter's and a Sheffield-class or two (or whatever you call it).

It's going to be capship-soup.

Chances are it *wasn't* around in 2667 -- since we've got a pretty accurate list of which ships were in service at that point (thanks to numbers from the novels and names from other sources). Check it out here: http://www.hamtwoslices.net/loaf/fleetcarriers.html

(At the start of 2667, Confed had the Ark Royal, Austerlitz, Concordia, Liberty, Trafalgar, Viper, Washington and Winterrowed. They lost the Trafalgar, Viper and Washington over the course of the year... and another Jutland-class (unnamed) entered service.)

Yes, but the Gettysburg is listed as being a fleet-carrier and it's not on the list. Since the Gettysburg is not a fleet carrier, or would never be classified as such... at best it would be a light-carrier. It is basically a rival for the Fralthra, which is not classified as a carrier. Fleet-Carriers are either Line-Carriers (standard, not light), or heavy. The Confederation is a dreadnought, but often listed as a fleet-carrier because of it's gigantic fighter-compliment (120). For this reason, I would like to use the Confederation in lieu of the Gettysburg because it avoids the problem with the Waterloo's as fleet-carriers.

Since other waterloos would probably also appear in the battle at the same time considering it seemed to be the main-cruiser of choice for the 2660's, I'm simply baffled as to what makes that one cruiser (Gettysburg) so special (no, I'm not being sarcastic).

I simply want to change the story so that it actually is a fleet-carrier, and not a cruiser with a fighter-compliment.

A couple of sources have diverged to make something weird.

I know most of this (not to sound arrogant).

My take, therefore, is that the Gettysburg-class is a type of 'supercruiser' along the lines of the WC Movie's Concordia-class... essentially a battleship (with a single fighter squadron). It makes sense, then, that Tolwyn's flag is the Austin -- since it'd previously been the Concordia (supercruiser).

Your take sounds about right.

It seems as if it's a big giant Exeter-shaped vessel, that's probably around 840 meters long, and armed like a battleship.

-Concordia

 

[Quarto]

For this reason, I would like to use the Confederation in lieu of the Gettysburg because it avoids the problem with the Waterloo's as fleet-carriers. Since other waterloos would probably also appear in the battle at the same time considering it seemed to be the main-cruiser of choice for the 2660's, I'm simply baffled as to what makes that one cruiser (Gettysburg) so special (no, I'm not being sarcastic).

We can't simply change the canon, though - all we can do is try to re-interpret it in such ways that it makes more ways. How about, instead of trying to explain why the Gettysburg should be changed to something else (a change that is impossible), we instead try to explain what makes the Gettysburg so special? After all, you are correct - a cruiser isn't a fleet carrier. If other Waterloos aren't on the list, then the Gettysburg shouldn't be either.

So what's going on? Well, we know that the Fralthi cruiser was configurable as a light carrier. Maybe Confed wanted to try something similar with the Waterloos, and the Gettysburg was chosen for the experiment. Since the ship carries 40 fighters to begin with, maybe with some modifications to the ship's interior, the removal of some weaponry and so on, the ship could carry 50-60 fighters, which would put it into the fleet carrier category (since Confed doesn't seem to have a medium carrier category).

If you think about it, this would make a hell of a lot of sense - given the overall situation, having a dozen expendable escort carriers wouldn't have been enough - Confed would probably have searched for a way to get some additional fleet carriers, as well.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

When you were talking about the carriers bandit, what about the Wolfhound, End Run described it as the sister ship to the long lost Tiger's Claw.

My list doesn't have the Bengals on it. If you'd like to add them, one was built each year from 2619 to 2657.

Yeah, I found what I was thinking of and its the Gettysburg apparently. Still, pretty damn sweet, although Im starting to formulate theories about modular section construction in the WC1 era...

We certainly see Kilrathi ships with similar designs on different scales -- especially the 'four pronged' ship. A single 'shape' for a ship that runs the gamut from small transports to 22 km dreadnoughts.

I remember the Admiral trying to get Kevin over on his flightwing with Hobbes, to keep him safe instead of going with Bondarevesky on "Mission to Kilrah".

It was Bondarevsky who offered to have Kevin transferred to the Wolfhound for an evaluation -- Admiral Tolwyn insisted he stay on the Tarawa.

I can't remember if it is destroyed there, or later at the battle of earth, or maybe at Sirius. LOAF would probably know.

Wolfhound survived Operation Backlash... but we never see it again. Hobbes' is transferred to the Victory a year or so later.

Sure, I'd like to hear it. *prepares to scribble notes*

No one IM'd me... I'm so desperately lonely.

Seriously, though, here's the few available stats:

CVA-91 Jutland
Mass: 21,300 tonnes
Ship's Weapons
Flak Cannon (3)
Anti Matter Gun (2)
Full complement of fighters
Other Names In This Class: Named for sea battles. Includes Jutland, Trafalgar.

I simply want to change the story so that it actually is a fleet-carrier, and not a cruiser with a fighter-compliment.

Great, when you invent a time machine let me know. The entire point of the Gettysburg reference in End Run is not to fuel some sort of carriers argument -- it's to remind us that Bondarevsky served there.

Incidentally, from the same WC Bible that I just quoted the Jutland-stats: "Waterloo-class cruisers are configurable as carriers." {This is the same document Forstchen had when he wrote End Run.)

I know most of this (not to sound arrogant).

Yup... I was replying to someone elses questions about the Gettysburg-class, though.

It seems as if it's a big giant Exeter-shaped vessel, that's probably around 840 meters long, and armed like a battleship.

Anything more massive than the Tiger's Claw should be fine. I don't think we can narrow it down to anything as specific as being 840 meters long.

 

[Concordia]

My list doesn't have the Bengals on it. If you'd like to add them, one was built each year from 2619 to 2657.

Wolfhound's not a Bengal?

We certainly see Kilrathi ships with similar designs on different scales -- especially the 'four pronged' ship. A single 'shape' for a ship that runs the gamut from small transports to 22 km dreadnoughts.

The Ralari and the Hakaga look similar, for example.

It was Bondarevsky who offered to have Kevin transferred to the Wolfhound for an evaluation -- Admiral Tolwyn insisted he stay on the Tarawa.

Tolwyn wanted to basically turn him into a warrior.

Wolfhound survived Operation Backlash... but we never see it again. Hobbes' is transferred to the Victory a year or so later.

No one IM'd me... I'm so desperately lonely.

I'm sorry

Seriously, though, here's the few available stats:

CVA-91 Jutland
Mass: 21,300 tonnes
Ship's Weapons
Flak Cannon (3)
Anti Matter Gun (2)
Full complement of fighters
Other Names In This Class: Named for sea battles. Includes Jutland, Trafalgar.

May I please know where you got this stat from.

Other than that the ship seems a tad light. Even the Rangers, which were light carriers were like 28,000.

Great, when you invent a time machine let me know. The entire point of the Gettysburg reference in End Run is not to fuel some sort of carriers argument -- it's to remind us that Bondarevsky served there.

Yeah, but with all due respect, the point of whether Bondarevsky did or did not serve on the Gettysburg is pointless in this case. Even if you configured the ship to carry 50-60 fighters, it would still be within the same threshold as the Fralthra (IIRC).

Incidentally, from the same WC Bible that I just quoted the Jutland-stats: "Waterloo-class cruisers are configurable as carriers." {This is the same document Forstchen had when he wrote End Run.)

Yeah, but the assumption is that "configurable" means when they're built. I'm guessing that's what they meant, because the differences between a cruiser version and a carrier-version would probably be major. Even if you could configure them back and forth, the time would be considerable. Back in 2667 during one of those Secret Operations games, the ship was then a cruiser. For it to have been converted into a carrier in a matter of weeks or months is nearly unbelievable.

Yup... I was replying to someone elses questions about the Gettysburg-class, though.

Okay

Anything more massive than the Tiger's Claw should be fine. I don't think we can narrow it down to anything as specific as being 840 meters long.

Yeah, i'm just basing it near the Concordia-Class Supercruiser.

I just thought if I said it should be 855, you'd say "why would you say that" and then I'd say "because the Concordia-Class Supercruiser's the same" and you'd say "they're not the same ships" and I'd say that "they were so close that they might as well be, and since I don't like the WC Movie, I don't want to count the WC Movie in and then substitute the TCS-Concordia with the TCS-Austin" then you'd say "you can't do that, that's WC-Canon" and then I'd say it's not "the WC movie isn't the same as the WC Game, they were never intended to be meant as the same, and therefore should not be counted as canon". Then you'd go into a rant of some sort explaining how it *is* canon, and then explain how you carefully worked it into the timeline, not to mention other members would also follow suit.

Since I didn't feel like dealing with that, I simply said a number close, but not the same to avoid it. (Yes, this is made mostly in jest, no offense is to be meant by it).

-Concordia

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Wolfhound's not a Bengal?

No, it is -- he asked where the Wolfhound was (on my list), and I told him the list didn't have Bengals.

May I please know where you got this stat from.

Other than that the ship seems a tad light. Even the Rangers, which were light carriers were like 28,000.

Wing Commander Bible. As best I know, it's the original source for the Jutland-class... Forstchen simply used it from there.

Yeah, but with all due respect, the point of whether Bondarevsky did or did not serve on the Gettysburg is pointless in this case. Even if you configured the ship to carry 50-60 fighters, it would still be within the same threshold as the Fralthra (IIRC).

It's a narrative point, not an 'in universe' one - which is all you really worry about writing a novel. The Concordia and Gettysburg show up to enforce the idea that Bondarevsky is the hero - he's served on the front lines, he knows what it's like and O'Brien doesn't/hasn't.

Yeah, but the assumption is that "configurable" means when they're built. I'm guessing that's what they meant, because the differences between a cruiser version and a carrier-version would probably be major. Even if you could configure them back and forth, the time would be considerable. Back in 2667 during one of those Secret Operations games, the ship was then a cruiser. For it to have been converted into a carrier in a matter of weeks or months is nearly unbelievable.

Ignoring the fact that it's an illogical assumption ('configurable' means changeable, not static), we don't *know* what the Gettysburg was in Special Operations 1 - it certainly launches *more* fighters than the cruiser variant is known to carry over the course of the game.

Yeah, i'm just basing it near the Concordia-Class Supercruiser.

I just thought if I said it should be 855, you'd say "why would you say that" and then I'd say "because the Concordia-Class Supercruiser's the same" and you'd say "they're not the same ships" and I'd say that "they were so close that they might as well be, and since I don't like the WC Movie, I don't want to count the WC Movie in and then substitute the TCS-Concordia with the TCS-Austin" then you'd say "you can't do that, that's WC-Canon" and then I'd say it's not "the WC movie isn't the same as the WC Game, they were never intended to be meant as the same, and therefore should not be counted as canon". Then you'd go into a rant of some sort explaining how it *is* canon, and then explain how you carefully worked it into the timeline, not to mention other members would also follow suit.

Since I didn't feel like dealing with that, I simply said a number close, but not the same to avoid it. (Yes, this is made mostly in jest, no offense is to be meant by it).

That's a reasonable claim. I still don't like the idea of narrowing down an unknown to a figure like that, but being of a similar size to the Concordia-class is good.

 

[Concordia]

No, it is -- he asked where the Wolfhound was (on my list), and I told him the list didn't have Bengals.

Okay, understood.

Wing Commander Bible. As best I know, it's the original source for the Jutland-class... Forstchen simply used it from there.

Wing Commander Bible?

It's a narrative point, not an 'in universe' one - which is all you really worry about writing a novel. The Concordia and Gettysburg show up to enforce the idea that Bondarevsky is the hero - he's served on the front lines, he knows what it's like and O'Brien doesn't/hasn't.

Okay.

Ignoring the fact that it's an illogical assumption ('configurable' means changeable, not static), we don't *know* what the Gettysburg was in Special Operations 1 - it certainly launches *more* fighters than the cruiser variant is known to carry over the course of the game.

How many fighters did it launch?

That's a reasonable claim. I still don't like the idea of narrowing down an unknown to a figure like that, but being of a similar size to the Concordia-class is good.

Okay. But keep in mind in Operation Backlash, one of those cruisers could be a Gettysburg and I wouldn't mind having stats for that.

-Concordia