Freespace series

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
hurleybird said:
What the heck kind of admin are you? You are a truly horrible representative to this website. I'm sure many people would be angered to see you post such trash.
Ok, well, I'm gonna basically repeat what AD just said, except I'm doing it in a more official manner - as this forum's moderator, I'm warning you. You can present any argument you like about how great Freespace is and how horrible WCP is. We don't mind that - we don't agree, but we don't mind. But if you're gonna resort to such fine arguments like "you are a horrible idiot because you don't agree with me", you're gonna be taking a vacation real soon.

Unlike you LOAF, I have an unbiased opinion. I recently (within the last year) played through freespace 2, freespace 1, and prophecy -- in that order, and all for the first time.
A... what? An opinion is, by definition, biased. That's what distinguishes it from fact - a fact is something that's unbiased, because it's simply the way things are. An opinion is biased, because you're expressing the way you think things are.

The gap in quality was unbeleivable. Prophecy doesen't survive the trial of time, while freespace does; and thats why freespace is the better game.
Really? So why is it that, given how FS and WCP had relatively similar sales (IIRC), only about forty thousand Freespace customers decided to buy FS2? For a game that survived the trial of time, that's a horrible result. It means that of all the FS customers, only forty thousand liked the game enough to want more of the same thing (...literally: FS was about an evil alien invasion, while FS2 was about... a bigger, really evil alien invasion!).

Of course, that might strike you as a weak argument. After all, WCP never had a sequel - how do I know it wouldn't have had less sales? Well, that's where my personal opinion comes in. I think a WC sequel would have sold more - specifically, at least ten times more, because I still go back and replay WCP about once a year (well, not the last three years, I've been too busy... making WCP-based mods). I only ever played through FS once. I've honestly been meaning to play it again... but I can't find a reason to do it. If I want to play a great game, a game that people say is original because the player first doesn't have shields, and then he gets them... I'll play TIE Fighter. And what else did FS have to hold my interest? Nothing. By the way, if you seriously thought that your "I liked FS more than WCP so it must be a better game because I'm unbiased" argument made any sense, notice that I've just completely destroyed it - because where you liked FS better, I like WCP better. Unless you can prove to me that you belong to a subspecies of mankind that's in some way superior to me, your argument is nothing more than merely your irrelevant, personal opinion. So is mine, of course - but I've never tried to pretend I'm unbiased.
 

Manic

Spaceman
hurleybird said:
"Its like comparing Call of Duty to Wolfenstien or Quake. Call of Duty being freespace, of course."
Actually... Freespace gave me the immersion of a lawyer's play-by-play review on that day's traffic-ticket case. Call of duty gave me the immersion of said lawyer beating me in the face with a gavel. CoD was ALL immersion - and no gameplay.
Freespace didn't give you, or any of your wingmen(who were somehow all worse pilots than you and the enemy, yet the war was still won), a face, name, or anything to relate to. The gameplay was decent... basicaly a copy of Wing Commander... which was a copy of xwing... which was a... well, you get the point. It didn't really introduce anything fresh, or new... just fancy lights and OMG TEH BEEMZ~~~Z!!!1one! er... yeah.
I will admit this much, beam weapons are interesting... but not nearly as interesting as if they'd relied on torpedo barrages instead... to me, explosions peppering two rival capships seems more entertaining than a be all, end all light beam of doom(which always seemed to wait until I was in the way to fire). But that may just be me.

Don't get me wrong. I could feel the lack of ol' Chris Roberts in the design, and execution... despite that, WCP was still more interesting, more involving, and more entertaining than Freespace. I, also, am not a fan of the "Can't make them smarter so let's just throw fifty of them at the pilot" concept. Funny, Freespace did that, too-oh, and every ship was five miles long. With BEEMZ. Whoopee. :eek:
 

Spertallica

Rear Admiral
I agree that the character interaction of Wing Commander was absent from Freespace- but I'm going to have to also agree with those who think that Freespace had a better overarching plot then WCP, for many of the same reasons Sphynx stated- the Shivans were mysterious, powerful, and only glimpses of their ultimate objectives were ever seen...

I haven't played through WC:p in a while, but I remember that the nephilim felt to me like a cheap, corny imitation of the bugs from Starship Troopers or from a bad b-grade sci-fi movie (ohhhhh, large numbers of bugs in star fighters! scary! With star fighters named after sea creatures for some odd reason) WC:p had none of the immersion of previous Wing Commander games, or even Freespace 1 or 2, IMO, as it lacked the intriguing politics of WC4, the counter-culture presented by the Kilrathi, or the interaction between the formerly at war Terrans and Vasudans as they attempted to find out more about the Shivans.

As for gameplay, as much as I love Wing Commander, Freespace 2 has WC:p beat hands down, and using sales as a figure for which game is better is stupid, IMO. There can be any number of reasons for Spacefighter simulators going into hibernation, and it's just as likely that WC:p (admittedly the final game in the flagship franchise of the genre) killed off genre before the release of FS2 through it's poor story, arcade-like gameplay, and capital ships that were little more then giant floating targets that, for gameplay purposes, only changed in appearance and had little to no tactical purpose in-game other then being targets to shoot at. Strip the thin plot from WC:p, and many of the missions rapidly become near-identical to one another.

FS2 featured fantastic missions and gameplay.. capital ships were more then just targets that the same torpedo run tactic could work on every single time, and they could be used (and were used in game) tactically in several different situations, be it providing fire support in a nebula (the TAG missile that direct capship beam weapons), engaging enemy capital ships which the player does not have the armament to destroy (the Shivan Dreadnought), or acting as an active part of a convoy's defensive contingent. Additionally, wild-weasel runs in FS2 actually have meaning, as the player is often required to even the odds by taking out an enemy capship's anti-capship weaponry so friendly capships can take it out. Outside of WC2 (arguably the best gameplay wise of the entire WC franchise), you might as well be blowing up the same capital ship every single time a capship is invovled, because they don't really do jack besides sit in place and fire their guns (futilely against torpedo runs, and not even dangerous half the time because capship weapons, for the most part in WC, are incredibly weak) at the player. Granted, WC ships were supposed to have all sorts of awesome weapons in the novels that were never modelled, but that doesn't change the feeling that the only difference between a transport, destroyer, and a carrier is how many runs it takes to destroy the vessel.

Honestly, I would like to see a spacefighter sim that had capships and fighters that functioned much the same as a RTS (real time strategy game)- every fighter or capship has a specific purpose or strength and a corresponding weakness, and is dependent upon other forces to destroy certain types of targets (e.g. certain small capships with anti-fighter weaponry require a large capship to destroy, but that large capship is vulnerable to bomber attack, hence necessitating fighter protection, etc.). I think Freespace 2 was on track to accomplish this. I think WC:p was more of the same. (and don't get me wrong, I honestly love both series and do like WC:p)
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Spertallica said:
or the interaction between the formerly at war Terrans and Vasudans as they attempted to find out more about the Shivans.
Well, you're right, there certainly wasn't much interaction between the formerly at war Terrans and Vasudans in WCP... but what it lacked in Vasudans, it made up with Kilrathi :).

The Vasudan thing, to me, was meaningless - ooh, an enemy we've been fighting for decades. I should hate them... but why? It's the first time I've ever seen. I don't give a shit. Just one encounter with the Kilrathi in WCP was worth more than the entire Vasudan subplot in Freespace, because when you saw a Kilrathi fighter on your wing it meant something to you; you had an emotional investment in the Kilrathi. You didn't with the Vasudans... and really, the way the series was going, you still wouldn't have cared about the Vasudans five games later. What do we know about the Vasudans, after two games? You mentioned something about the Kilrathi culture making the earlier games in the series more interesting. That's true - and so I ask you, why is it that after two games and one addon, the Vasudans are still just generic aliens with no culture and no personality? How do you justify using the Vasudans as an example of something that FS did better than WCP, when anybody can immediately see that the Vasudans were just as faceless as the rest of the FS cast?

(makes you wonder - were the Shivans so mysterious because that's the way the designers had imagined them... or were they merely mysterious because the designers had as little imagination for them as they did for everything else in the FS universe? In other words, this one thing that I feel FS did better than WCP... was it design, or was it an accidental result of making a faceless and generic game with faceless and generic species and characters?)

As for gameplay, as much as I love Wing Commander, Freespace 2 has WC:p beat hands down, and using sales as a figure for which game is better is stupid, IMO.
In your opinion - but only in yours. We're not talking about a space sim market in general. My only question is - if people loved FS1, why didn't they buy FS2? If you like a particular game, and a sequel comes out, your decision to buy or not to buy this sequel is not affected by what's happening with the rest of the genre. If you are seriously suggesting that FS fans decided not to buy FS2 because the space sim market had fallen through, you are grossly insulting the intelligence of FS fans.

So, having established that, we must come to the obvious truth - only about forty thousand FS1 players actually liked the game enough to buy a sequel. Nobody else cared. That's how memorable Freespace was.

capital ships that were little more then giant floating targets that, for gameplay purposes, only changed in appearance and had little to no tactical purpose in-game other then being targets to shoot at.
Huh? So, you mean to tell me that capships in WCP never shot back at the player? They never launched fighters, or capship missiles? They never directly threatened friendly capships? They did all of these things - so your argument is just empty rhetoric.

What's more, your argument is made even worse by the fact that the exact same can be said about capships in Freespace. What real purpose did capships like the Eve or the Lucifer serve in Freespace? None - they were just big targets to shoot at. The only difference between them was appearance.

(none of that is true, of course - but if you want to claim without any legitimate argument that the WCP capships were just targets, then you will be forced to reach the conclusion that all capships in every single space sim ever made are just targets)

FS2 featured fantastic missions and gameplay.. capital ships were more then just targets that the same torpedo run tactic could work on every single time, and they could be used (and were used in game) tactically in several different situations, be it providing fire support in a nebula (the TAG missile that direct capship beam weapons), engaging enemy capital ships which the player does not have the armament to destroy (the Shivan Dreadnought), or acting as an active part of a convoy's defensive contingent.
Every single one of those things is true for WCP. Even that TAG missile you talk about has a direct WCP equivalent in the target disc you use to paint a capship target for the Midway.

Additionally, wild-weasel runs in FS2 actually have meaning, as the player is often required to even the odds by taking out an enemy capship's anti-capship weaponry so friendly capships can take it out.
Uh, sure... yeah. Taking out an enemy capship's anti-capship weaponry so friendly capships can take it out has so much more meaning than taking out an enemy capship's anti-fighter weaponry so friendly bombers can take it out.

(yes, that was sarcasm - the two situations are identical)

Outside of WC2 (arguably the best gameplay wise of the entire WC franchise), you might as well be blowing up the same capital ship every single time a capship is invovled, because they don't really do jack besides sit in place and fire their guns (futilely against torpedo runs, and not even dangerous half the time because capship weapons, for the most part in WC, are incredibly weak) at the player.
Your argument is so weak that even you don't know what you're talking about. What do you mean, "outside of WC2"? Capships in WC2 did the exact same things they did in WCP. And the argument about "blowing up the same capital ship every single time a capship is involved" applies to WC2 even more than to any other WC game. How does a Ralatha fight? With flak and AMG guns. How do you destroy it? With two torpedoes. How does a Fralthra fight? With flak and AMG guns. How do you destroy it? With two torpedoes. How does a Kilrathi supply depot fight? With flak (no AMG guns - it's deficient). How do you destroy it? With two torpedoes. How does a Confed Gilgamesh fight? With flak and AMG guns. How do you destroy it? With two torpedoes.




Needless to say, the thing I'm getting at here is not that WC2 is repetitive. My point is that your entire argument relies on completely unfounded personal opinion and ideas that are more than merely not true - they are actually the exact opposite of reality. You make claims about the entire WC series with the exception of one game, and upon closer analysis it turns out that this one game is actually the closest to fulfilling your claims. What's more the whole point of your argument is to prove that FS is better in this aspect than WCP... but you have failed to prove that FS is any different at all than WCP in this aspect.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Freespace as a wing commander clone? Freespace hardly resembles wing commander. If anything, freespace is moddeled after x-wing/tie-fighter.
I hate to break this to you, kid, but X-Wing and TIE Fighter exist because of Wing Commander too. Back before you were born we had this same discussion about TIE Fighter versus Wing Commander III.

Well, there was a difference -- TIE Fighter added something to the genre. It took Wing Commander's gameplay and made it a unique sort of experience, which was highly respectable because it didn't have to. They could have slapped Star Wars ships all over Wing Commander and called it a night.

Freespace brought nothing to a table, and it burned the house down after dinner.

Again wrong, both freespace games pushed the graphical envelope when they cmae out. A quick look at reviews will show you that.
Yup, that's what I said. And every single shooter in the universe is going to do this. It's not worth a damn - the ability to render a ten million and two sided object instead of a ten million and one sided object isn't unique or interesting. Greatness has nothing to do with the ability to use whatever kind of 3D card is available when your game comes out.

You also clearly have no idea what a great game is, do you? You don't measure a game by what it 'brings to the table', you measure it by how enjoyable it is to play, and more importantly, its longetivity. "5 years later, how fun is it to play?"
No, you don't. Lots of things are enjoyable but not great. Freespace isn't one of them, as it wasn't enjoyable in the least, mind you, but the concept exists. It applies to a million sequels and spinoffs -- the new Quake game is enjoyable but not great -- it's the latest iteration of an existing 3D engine that introduces nothing to the genre. A 'Commander Keen' sequel is enjoyable but not great... the original invented EGA scrolling on the PC, the sequels didn't do anything but continue being fun. That X-Com sequel where you're underwater is enjoyable but not great -- it's X-Com with different graphics. And so forth -- greatness has an aspect of originality and inspiration.

Wing Commander was great, it invented the genre, it made bitmaps Wing Commander II was great, you have a sound card today because Wing Commander II made it the industry standard. Wing Commander III was great, it invented a subgenre that changed the industry -- and even WIng Commander IV was great for overdoing that concept so much that it prevented anyone from ever doing it again.

Freespace copied Wing Commander and then tried to sell itself as the spinoff of a game that *did* take an existing genre and add some originality (Descent). That's wrong on both counts - and sure as hell not great.

In the case of prophecy, I would rather play solitair.
'Solitair'? May I suggest Reader Rabbit Spelling Challenge?

On the other hand, great games like freespace, wing commander 2, tie fighter, master of orion, or even 1986's starflight, I would play any day of the week. Freespace took good elements from other space sims, brought them together, added the greatest combat in the genre, and became a great game.
It's disgusting that you'd put Freespace on that list - it added nothing, while the other four were all groundbreaking.

The more you think about it, the more flawed your reasoning becomes.
Paging the rhetoric police.

Being a later addition to the genre, there really isn't much that freespace could have 'brought to the table' so to speak, besides great gameplay. I mean come on, if you yourself were to make a space sim what would you be able to 'bring to the table' that hasn't been done yet?
Oh, Freespace doesn't *have* to have any originality -- because it can't! That's quite a defense, I hope it doesn't become more flawed as you think about it, sarcastic grin.

I'm not a game designer, but I'm pretty sure there's lots of things Freespace could have done.

* Multiplayer. The space sim industry never had a 'killer ap' in terms of multiplayer. There's no unique or simple or easy fun gameplay that allowed the concept to take off like it did with shooters - in the best of cases, multiplayer space sims just re-use game mods from FPS concepts and leave it at that. Freespace could have innovated here.

* Joysticks. One of the biggest problems is the percieved need for a joystick -- look at the extent to which Freelancer tried to get around this. Freespace could have worked on finding an original way to get around this problem. Freespace just copied everyone else.

* Story. You're internet bitching about Prophecy, so it stands to reason that you think someone could do it better. Freespace didn't try to do it *at all*. It saw the 'FMV' industry get crushed by Wing Commander IV and it bent over. If Freespace had tried to innovate in storytelling -- even something as easy as high quality rendered characters -- we might be somewhere else today.

* Immersion. One of the biggest 'desires' of the industry in the late 90s was a 'cockpit/FPS' system that would have attached less popular space sims to the super-popular shooter gameplay. Freespace would have been a great choice to innovate here, being a sequel to the robots in tunnels games... instead it just gave up.

If I can think of four giant categories where Freespace could have should have innovated before I've had my morning coffee, I imagine there's a hell of a lot of others. What it actually did was copy Wing Commander and nothing else.

What the heck kind of admin are you? You are a truly horrible representative to this website. I'm sure many people would be angered to see you post such trash.
Well, it seems like my not suffering fools lightly got in the way of your foolishness... so I'm going to say that I must be a gerat admin.

You really need to realize that you're opinion isn't always right. In fact, after this, I'm pretty sure the opposite is more likely of being true.
As much as I want to rag on you for using "you're", pointing out the idiocy of the entire concept (wrong opinions!) wins out.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
(makes you wonder - were the Shivans so mysterious because that's the way the designers had imagined them... or were they merely mysterious because the designers had as little imagination for them as they did for everything else in the FS universe? In other words, this one thing that I feel FS did better than WCP... was it design, or was it an accidental result of making a faceless and generic game with faceless and generic species and characters?)
I've never bought the "the Shivans are so mysterious and the game is so brilliant at introducing them" claim at all -- they're called the *Shiva*ns, for Gods sake.

You can figure out what they're there for pretty darned easily from their name alone.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
You know - this thread was so entertaining, I'm going to dust off my copy of Freespace 2 just to make sure I'm remembering everything correctly. (That is - that it had a lovely habit of crashing my computer)

I'll give it a once over again. I don't plan on being won over entirely, especially considering I'm playing great games for the first time (Half Life 2) and replaying old favorites (TIE Fighter, Jedi Knight) but I'll make a little time for this; worse case scenario, it just gives me more fodder to throw out into this thread.
 

Paddybhoy

Rear Admiral
I do remember the Prophecy mission where you have to scan alien debris as quickly as possible, competing against Stiletto
i think they were bhoys of some kind with a com device hidden within the field (I think the brief for that mission was pretty weak on details), also there was that whole 'u have failed this mission for no apparent reason' issue. Honestly doing that mission was a bit hit'n'hope and i had to replay it a couple of times to realise the trick (not very inspirartional for a game, and a bit well crap aswell)

You're complaining about one of the best things about Prophecy's mechanics, the fact that it dropped the 'geared for stupid people' capital ships of Wing Commander III and IV. Going back to Wing Commander II's torpedo runs was great -- capital ships should be a special challenge, not big cubes you shoot your ordinary guns at all day.
If attacking cap ships in prophecy was like wc2 I would be happy, I get what your saying about the capship element of freespace, if overdone it can be really boring but attacking capships in prophecy was r...e...a...l...l...y slow, not just slow but easy aswell, maybe if the had flak like in wc2 it would have been entertaining but doesn't and it isn't, they are just big targets.

DId you play Prophecy? It has every single thing you just listed.
wat do u escort in prophecy, other fighters? a lone swacs (u show up at the waypoint and pretty much blast away till everythings dead whilst using the navcom to shoot any bug targeting the swacs)? the midway? (seriously its impossible for the midway to die ever). In freespace u escort whole convoys (that GASP actually move and stuff) u escort your home ship (which gasp is actually vulnerable to the enemy, u starbases, evac pods, damaged fighters, damaged cap ships.

All prophecy missions are practically identical, there no change in tempo at all. lets just use the swacs mission as an example. U link up with the swacs take it to each nav point and fight watever happens to be at each on, u do this by basically jumping in a shooting the shit out of everything and everynow and then use the navmap to check out wats targeting the swacs, not only is it easy but its unimaginative I MEAN THE BUGS ALL ATTACK FROM THE SAME DIRECTION!! theres no need for thought or foresight just mindless shooting..... in every mission near enough.

Gots to go wrk (takes off wank hat) check on this later
 

Dyret

Super Carrot!
LeHah said:
You know - this thread was so entertaining, I'm going to dust off my copy of Freespace 2 just to make sure I'm remembering everything correctly. (That is - that it had a lovely habit of crashing my computer)
You should really download the graphical enhancements first though. They make all the difference in the world.


Paddybhoy said:
wat do u escort in prophecy,
The midway, some SWACs, a convoy in the demo... And the Midway was very vulnerable. It's okay for you to have your opinion, but being stupid like this will only get you banned.

That being said, I completely agree with you about the debris scanning mission.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
wat do u escort in prophecy, other fighters? a lone swacs (u show up at the waypoint and pretty much blast away till everythings dead whilst using the navcom to shoot any bug targeting the swacs)? the midway? (seriously its impossible for the midway to die ever).
Hehe, this is a hilarious setup, right? Prophecy is so awful, you have to defend the Midway... but in amazing brilliant Freespace, you get to defend your *home ship*! You need a better editor.

Also, I should ask again - have you ever played Prophecy? The Midway is difficult to defend - we spent months explaining to everyone that they were losing missions because Manta bombers were taking out the Midway's hangers and pretenting them from being able to land.

In fact, the games mission tree sometimes relies entirely on the Midway taking damage -- if the ship loses her engines in an attack play a, if she loses her bridge play b, if she's undamaged play c.

You're probably thinking about the original game, where the Tiger's Claw was practically invulnerable. The Midway most certainly is not.

In freespace u escort whole convoys (that GASP actually move and stuff)
G'wriss 1 - Convoy Rescue

(or any of the many convoy and battle group escorts you fly in Secret Ops.)

u escort your home ship (which gasp is actually vulnerable to the enemy,
Hrissith 5 - Plasma Gun Defense

(or half a dozen others, I just picked one with 'defense' in the title that people frequently have trouble with.)

u starbases,
Hellespont 1 - Callisto Defense

evac pods,
T'lan Meth 2 - MIA Recovery

damaged fighters,
H'rekkah 2 - Black Widow Rescue

(You rescue a wing of damaged fighters -- the only difference is that they're flown by people you care about instead of Greek letters.)

damaged cap ships.
G'wriss 2c - Enemy Starship Encounter

(G'wriss 2b and G'wriss 2c literally require the Midway to be damaged to be triggered.)

The difference between the two games is that Prophecy is *seemless*... these elements flow directly into the game experience.

i think they were bhoys of some kind with a com device hidden within the field (I think the brief for that mission was pretty weak on details), also there was that whole 'u have failed this mission for no apparent reason' issue. Honestly doing that mission was a bit hit'n'hope and i had to replay it a couple of times to realise the trick (not very inspirartional for a game, and a bit well crap aswell)
You fail the mission if Stiletto finds the buoy before you do -- it's pretty clear from the video that you're racing with Stiletto.

But, surpruse surprise, a unique game element has completely thrown off the guy complaining about how there are no unique game elements.

If attacking cap ships in prophecy was like wc2 I would be happy, I get what your saying about the capship element of freespace, if overdone it can be really boring but attacking capships in prophecy was r...e...a...l...l...y slow, not just slow but easy aswell, maybe if the had flak like in wc2 it would have been entertaining but doesn't and it isn't, they are just big targets.
You should change the difficulty level - Prophecy's capital ship attacks can be terrifyingly difficult. It also brings back another great concept from WC2, which is bomber escort missions... where your entire success relies on the ability to keep bombers alive and you're left entirely helpless to damage capital ships yourself. It's frustratingly great.
 

Sphynx

Commodore
Look, guys. It's like this:

Some people like WC.

Some people like FS.

Some people like them both (that's where I come in. They were different, and I liked them both for different reasons. But, I liked them both for what they are.).

All have their reasons for what they feel.

We're going to have to accept that, and realize that we don't have to agree on this.

I was thinking about posting research Milo had done on why FS sales didn't convert into FS2 sales to answer Quarto's question, and why the genre fizzled out, but this thread is becoming a little too personal, I think. Quarto, you can PM me if you are interested.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Look, guys. It's like this:

Some people like WC.

Some people like FS.

Some people like them both (that's where I come in. They were different, and I liked them both for different reasons. But, I liked them both for what they are.).

All have their reasons for what they feel.
Gee, great, thanks for clearing that up.

We're going to have to accept that, and realize that we don't have to agree on this.
Threads like this aren't about convincing people to change their opinions. That's a practical impossibility.

They're about convincing everyone *else* that Freespace isn't worth their time -- that the people raging about it being the best game ever are fan blinded idiots and not a group with a legitimate opinion.

I was thinking about posting research Milo had done on why FS sales didn't convert into FS2 sales to answer Quarto's question, and why the genre fizzled out, but this thread is becoming a little too personal, I think. Quarto, you can PM me if you are interested.
That's stupid fanboy crap, though.

It's some HLP jackass phrasing the opinion he set out to have as "research".
 

Ghost

Emperor
About attacking Capships....

Remember the ''Defang the Beast'' missions, they were kinda tough, lots of AA lasers and fighters, you must destroy those turrets and capships missiless launchers.
Go back again to finish her.

The last mission, attacking the wormhole is pretty dificult too.

There is one mission where you must shoot some capship missiles in your Wasp (the second mission after the big Midway attack IIRC)

I want to know if we can add WC:SO to this discussion, lots of escort mission too.
The Cerberus, the Liners, Ella Starbase (IIRC) and some other.

Saying that WCP-SO has some poor mission design is pretty stupid IMHO, it could have tons of bad things, but mission design isn't one of those
 

hurleybird

Rear Admiral
Quarto said:
Ok, well, I'm gonna basically repeat what AD just said, except I'm doing it in a more official manner - as this forum's moderator, I'm warning you. You can present any argument you like about how great Freespace is and how horrible WCP is. We don't mind that - we don't agree, but we don't mind. But if you're gonna resort to such fine arguments like "you are a horrible idiot because you don't agree with me", you're gonna be taking a vacation real soon.
Quarto, I wasn't questioning LOAF's adminship (yeah, thats a made up word) on the basis that he doesen't agree wih me; rather because he's flame baiting. Just look at his post above mine, no mod or admin should ever resort to such rude dribble. Anyhow, I'm busy now, but I will make sure to finish a response later.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Quarto, I wasn't questioning LOAF's adminship (yeah, thats a made up word) on the basis that he doesen't agree wih me; rather because he's flame baiting. Just look at his post above mine, no mod or admin should ever resort to such rude dribble. Anyhow, I'm busy now, but I will make sure to finish a response later.
No, the jerks who have come to a Wing Commander message board to troll about Freespace are flame-baiting. I'm just refusing to bow down to them. Everyone can have an opinion, but I'm more than allowed to point out when those opinions are stupid.
 

hurleybird

Rear Admiral
Bandit LOAF said:
No, the jerks who have come to a Wing Commander message board to troll about Freespace are flame-baiting.
First off, I only played the freespace games within the last year. Secoundly, I am a long time wing commander fan and WC2 is my favourite space sim. Thridly this is the 'off-topic' section of this wing commander message board, and the subject of discussion is freespace.

Bandit LOAF said:
I'm just refusing to bow down to them.
Are you that insecure? This isn't a power struggle.

Bandit LOAF said:
Everyone can have an opinion, but I'm more than allowed to point out when those opinions are stupid.
You also seem to consider yourself free to call the entire freespace community stupid... nothing to see here but yet more flame-baiting.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
hurleybird said:
You also seem to consider yourself free to call the entire freespace community stupid... more flame-baiting.
When one person says it, its stupid. When many people agree with it, its truth.

Be warry of idiots in large numbers.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
First off, I only played the freespace games within the last year. Secoundly, I am a long time wing commander fan and WC2 is my favourite space sim. Thridly this is the 'off-topic' section of this wing commander message board, and the subject of discussion is freespace.
So... we should control who is and is not allowed to talk about Freespace *why*?

Are you that insecure? This isn't a power struggle.
If it were a "power struggle", I could ban you and be done with it. And insecure? You're the one whose horrified that I'd be allowed to argue my own opinion.

You also seem to consider yourself free to call the entire freespace community stupid... nothing to see here but yet more flame-baiting.
Every HLP asshole who's ever decided to troll the CIC is terrible -- if there are good ones out there, I haven't met them.
 

hurleybird

Rear Admiral
Bandit LOAF said:
So... we should control who is and is not allowed to talk about Freespace *why*?
How did you get that idea? I was mearly pointing out that I am not a "jerk who has come to a Wing Commander message board to troll about Freespace" as you put it.

Bandit LOAF said:
If it were a "power struggle", I could ban you and be done with it. And insecure? You're the one whose horrified that I'd be allowed to argue my own opinion.
First off, I never said that I was insecure that you had your opinion. In fact, it's not that you dont like freespace that troubles me. You haven't argued your opinion at all; you've arrogantly stated your opinion as if it were a cold hard fact.

Bandit LOAF said:
Every HLP asshole who's ever decided to troll the CIC is terrible -- if there are good ones out there, I haven't met them.
Haven't met them; however, judging from your name calling and rambling I wouldn't doupt it if you were the one who started the trolling. Could you point out some posts filled with this 'trolling' you speak of?


Also, come on LOAF! Insulting both the game and the community is a fastest way to get more HLP 'assholes' posting in these boards. Its called flame baiting, and no one who flame baits should be a mod or admin period.
 
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