Bandit LOAF said:
Again, though, the development of the T-Bomb is clearly supposed to be an analogue for the Manhattan Project, which was one of the most expensive research projects in history (it's probably second next to Project Apollo).
I agree, but wasn’t the Behemoth even more expensive in comparison?
Bandit LOAF said:
Inventing, building and deploying a bomb capable of destroying a planet in a matter of weeks would have been very, very expensive.
If all the cash was spent on those few weeks, then couldn’t say the T-Bomb took too many resources that could’ve gone to front line ships, like the Behemoth?
No, we already established the opposite - the intention *was* genocide, it *was* to wipe out the Kilrathi home planet... the weapon was developed, the plan made without any knowledge of the Grand Fleet or its intentions.
All right, the Grarnd Fleet was there, incidentally, and it was known on that briefing. What I do wonder is if they would’ve used the weapon if they didn’t think they were losing the war, or about to.
The exception here, of course, is Tolwyn's computer analysis -- which is a rhetorical device specifically to tell us about the future. It must be taken more seriously than, say, Rollins' ranting about something.
Which we also established was not infallible, since it was possible that mankind would not lose the war without destroying Kilrah.
Eh, I don't like the color silver but I'm not going to go smashing every silver car I can find. Thrakhath will present Earth for the Sivar because his grandfather ordered him to (or destroy it in the fighting, if that becomes necessary), that's probably a given.
On a side not, I did hope Blair would push a side arm and kill Thrakkath on the losing cutscene. And that was a very violent and graphic death to a video game using FMV.
It's not speaking to every water planet in the universe, though. You're right that the Kilrathi don't like water planets... but that doesn't mean the destroy them. Look at Venice -- they just built a space station for themselves to live on and continued to enslave the world.
I don't agree with the 'possibility' aspect at all, though. "We don't know what will happen" is a poor excuse upon which to base murder.
Anything particularly interesting on Venice? Who could’ve guessed that, on the same offensive (it is the same, right?), a friendship relevant to WCIV was being forged (Eisen an the Capt. Rodriguez). I like those references that go back in time. And this one didn’t cause a lot of head-scratching, like Hawk’s one on WCP.
Speaking of WC1, I do have a question. I remember that, if you never mage to kill the Kilrathi aces, they would all show up on the last mission in Hell’s Gate on the losing path. Does the same happen in Venice on the winning path?
Now, here's a rub for you: we (not Blair) *do* know that the destruction of Kilrah calls forth the Nephilim, who kill millions more humans immediately and at present stand a good chance of wiping us all out (unlike the Kilrathi they *aren't* interested in slaves). What's the solution with that knowledge? Surrender, suffer slavery and avoid the Nephilim?
Neither. The solution would win the war with a conventional method without destroying Kilrah. I wonder if the T-Bomb could be set to produce a lot of damage but not really planet-wide destruction, so it could cripple the planet, hopefully killing the emperor, and not cause the Bugs to show up.
After all, there’s reason to believe that Earth could be saved at that point, or even that Confed could continue to fight if it fells. Maybe I’d accept to surrender Earth if it’s inevitable, to prevent its destruction, like both sides surrendered Rome and Paris on World War II.
I think it would be irresponsible to use the T-Bomb, or the Behemoth for that matter, knowing of the Bug threat. Surrender would be unacceptable unless there was absolutely no conceivable way to keep fighting, and that was not the case on WC3. Confed is able to push as far as Downtown Kilrath, one jump point way.
Speaking of which, after Hyperion they go meet with the fleet on Freya,
No, Wing Commander *does* say that bio-weapons will make mankind stronger - in Tolwyn's speech.
This is one of the absolute staples of criticism: you can not ever simply decide that a character is lying to you without internal evidence supporting such a claim. Fiction just doesn't work that way and the process of thinking about it in any intelligent manner falls apart when you allow that to occur.
Well, Wing Commander *does* say Kilrathi do no co-exist, by Angel and Thrakkath. But they do, somewhat. We don’t need a citation explicitly saying Thrakkath was wrong, since we know Kilrathi co-exist with slaves.
I agree with you on the second part. And there’s no doubt Tolwyn believes it, but I don’t know why we should take that as an absolute, universally accepted truth. Blair have his doubts. Hey, even the Black Lance has doubts even if the weapon would work and has to test it. It works, but that doesn’t mean it will produce the desired results in the long term. We no one ever finds out. As it stands, it could work or not.
It's also not how writing works. You don't have characters lie without an end -- especially in a visual medium where establishing that something is a lie is very, very, very difficult.
It is taken as gospel that if Mr. X is lying about Y then this has to be somehow revealed internally. Otherwise, for our purpose it would simply be a continuity error: space ships don't fly like that! Genetic engineering isn't real!, etc. -- which is another, much lowlier form of discussion.
Well, I’d argue that neither Tolwyn nor Thrakkath were telling a lie. That doesn’t mean, on the other had, that we can take what they say as an absolute truth.
See, you shot yourself in the foot right now... his claims aren't new except that they involve a magic future technology whose extent we can't understand. External entirely to Tolwyn but an open part of the Wing Commander universe is the fact that there *is* a science of "bioconvergence" that must be skirting the edges of exactly what you call eugenics.
Well, the problem with that is that the Bioconvergence part was brought later in the plan in other to help actually build the weapon, but the overall ideological concept existed prior to that. Likewise, Confed decided to blow up Kilrah before they started to make the T-Bomb and rescue Dr. Severin. The Black Lance was already in late stages of preparation by the times they got their hands on the Dr. Brody. It all seems more linked to the actual Gen-Select Bio-Weapon than to the ideology behind it. The technology is applied to the means, not the ends, which was exactly the same as it is today, to kill people based on their inferiority.
And who tells us that? Wing Commander does. And you helped me figure that out when you compared Telamon to Hyperion.
The principle behind Tolwyn’s plan is simple: “The strong shall survive”: the primary universal law. The species that is weak, faces extinction.”
Later on, he says: “Now, in the Gen-Select device, we have a tool to do the job. We have tested it, and we shall use it!”.
Well, naturally, this states that the Gen-Select is something new they have just finished building. And that *now* they have a *tool* to do the Job.
And yes, WCIV has parallels with WCIII. The weapon test is just one of them. In both cases, they are using a new tech as a means to an end. And, in both cases, they need to acquire a scientist to finish producing the weapon. Dr. Severin on the Kilrathi prison planet, and the Bioconvergence Chemist on Tyr.
Please note that, while the knowledge of Dr. Brody was needed to finish the Gen Select device, it was certainly not necessary to make decision to build it. Unless we have a citation specifically mentioned that Bioconverngece is behind the whole thing, it seems it has more to do with the Bio-Weapon itself than the principles behind it.
The Gen-Select is, in Tolwyn’s worlds, a tool to do the job, like like the T-Bomb is tool for a different job, but the decision to destroy Kilrah doesn’t require the technology behind it.
Thus, Wing Commander tells us that the advanced and new Bioconvergence science knowledge of the chemist was imperative to build the weapon. But not to the decision to build the weapon to begin with!
Gangsters commit illegal acts in order to make a monetary profit, though, which has nothing to do with Seether. From my perspective this is yet another case of you deciding a word has some negative connotation so it must apply to whoever you think is the ultimate bad guy.
I did not really mean he was an actual ganstger. It’s just an expression that has been used in a derogatory fashion against individuals inside a government military structure operating on an uncivilized fashion, which perhaps would include cut a Captain’s throat. But I think this gangster thing has run its course.
And Seether is not even remotely close to an ultimate bad guy. Even thought he wants to be one, since he would like his organization to rule the universe. But since he fails to defeat the Union of Border Worlds, we can assume he might have been overestimating his chances.
Joking aside, that’s no shame. He fails against Blair, as did his “predecessor” in WC terms.
Oh, he *laughed*? Well, that proves he was guilty of whatever you said and wasn't actually a military officer! Do me a favor and do not sit on any juries.
The laughter part was indicative that he appeared to be enjoying himself or was slightly crazy, wouldn’t you agree?
I don't see how a pre-emptive strike could ever *become* legitimate
Whoa, let me stop you right there. From the top of my head, if a nation is building a nuke and preparing to use it against e neighbor state which lacks such weapon, wouldn’t it be OK for that nation to send a fighter wing to take out the complex, if you knew this information with reasonable certainty?
It is an interesting topic, with all the debate about preemptive wars. But let’s not go there.
-- especially since your entire operation is based on doing your darndest to prove that you're innocent and should not have war declared against you in the first place. The sheer stupidity of the Speradon operation boggles the mind, especially in retrospect when you know that the Border Worlds *did* know that the war was being incited by a fringe group.
If the raid had been launched ten minutes after the Senate declared war it would have been fine... but deciding to attack someone because they might be your enemies someday is crazy.
I happen to agree with you on this one. Politically, it was a not smart. Military, it would make sense if you didn’t expect to be able to present your case. But it sounds like a bad movie, not to mention reprehensible. Not only because of the reasons you listed, but because Border Worlds systems were under attack by pirates and mercenaries, so the resources should be used there.
Eh, that's a silly thing to say - because ideology in some form or another is a constant. (It just means 'thinking'.) The Border Worlds' had their own ideology -- that they should be allowed to leave the Confederation... and apparently take whatever they wanted from it. It's not a case of there being some kind of amazing ideological vacuum on one side.
The BW has an “ideology” in the same sense that a Corporation has a “philosophy”, the ideology behind Tolwyn’s action were more complex and well thought, and therefore mode potentially dangerous.
Again, Delance, you're being stupid about Tolwyn. He's *evil* now, so he must be stealing money? Nations have giant budgets for exactly this type of project. Look at the Manhattan Project, mentioned earlier in this thread -- $20 billion (modern) spent in three years, none of it explained to Congress. After a 35 year war you'll certainly have a Senate that knows it can't ask questions in public.
Now, that said, the vast majority of these things were war-era projects that Tolwyn simply gathered the fruit of: the flashpak, the fision gun, the GE personnel, the cloaking device, the jammer and the Lance were all war era research.
Other aspects weren't even so secret - Project units operated off the Lexington and the Princeton in the guise of a legitimate 'Kilrathi weapons' research project (that, presumably, had its own budget item... which would probably cover the various Confederation and Border Worlds fighters they operated under the pretense of testing weaponry on them).
Of your list that just leaves the uniforms (which I assume was a joke, but it's a good marker for all the 'etc' involved) and the mercenaries as a 'black budget' item. (And lets face it, hiring a mercenary in Wing Commander isn't hard or expensive... and have you ever questioned the morality of the Privateer mission computer telling you that RandomCompany needs a blockade buster?)
Oh, it’s easy to buy mercs, especially after the end of the war, that’s a plot point. Nice bits of info for the whole thing. And I didn’t call Tolwyn a thief, Blair kind of did, don’t blame me. And while the uniforms were a joke, I wonder: due to the secretive nature of the Black Lance, would the making of the uniforms have been done internally, like the Dragon?
The Gen-Select weapon was based on existing research (I mean, Maniac knew about it!) and it was developed by a prisoner in an existing space lab... and then reproduced in a war-era covert research base (Axius).
But, like the T-Bomb, they need to “rescue” one scientist to make the thing work. And Maniac just hear the term, he had no idea to what it means.
Throw that out - the Empire never recognized any declaration of war and, in fact, had no diplomatic ties with the Terran Confederation. (Also, for a counter-pinch, note that Tolwyn *was* being careful about attacking further planets with the bioweapon until war had been declared: he's very careful about this in the novel.)
That explains Tolwyn’s comments about never being ‘officialy at war’, after all Confed did issue a declaration of war on the WC Movie. But, if the Kilrathi had no diplomatic ties, how did they arrange an armistice? And if Tolwyn was going to use the weapon against Confed itself, a declaration of war would be quite impossible to obtain. (Confed declares war on itself!)
I would say that we were "unsure" about either of them. Their placement in the universe could or could not be important depending on how the conflict evolves in the future... but I think both *are* strategic from a 'thread' perspective. That is to say Telamon is strategic because you force the Border Worlds to deploy their limited resources there to care for the situation (for an extended period of time - the Intrepid spends more time enforcing a blockade in the Telamon System than it does the rest of WC4 combined)... Hyperion is strategic because it can be used as a 'threat', to force the Kilrathi to consider surrendering before Kilrah is attacked (although this doesn't seem to have been followed up on at all - it did later become strategic because the out-of-the-way system was used as a staging area).
And note, then, that billions aren't especially significant -- compared to a Kilrathi War that killed ten trillion people (combined).
Again, I *doubt* the T-Bomb was something anyone knew about -- ask a senator in 1943 if the country is developing an Atomic Bomb... (and, of course, you can apply the same fact to the GE weapon -- ultimately it's only the executive who needs to know what's in the black budget.)
Well, at least the president or some legitimate people inside the US government, and some of the British knew about the project. It’s not completely far fetched to imagine it was no different with the T-Bomb. The Gen-Select had to be kept a secret for somewhat different reasons.
Wrong - we can be sure that the Temblor Bomb was *not* found to be a 'generally acceptable' weapon. We specifically see a Confederation giving the Kilrathi vast post-war reparations in False Colors because it feels guilty about the kind of weapon it used to end the war.
OK.
No, he didn't. Blair found out about 'the situation' from Maniac after 'rescuing' the biochemist. He stays with the Confederation for quite a while after this point -- he attacks Border Worlds shipping, captures a science lab for Tolwyn's project and shoots down rebel fighters left and right. It's his friend and commanding officer being in danger that causes him to defect, not some grand seated understanding of the universe.
Seether's friend and commanding officer, on the other hand, is Admiral Tolwyn.
So all those years bumping heads with Tolwyn and not being his friend finally paid off.
On a slightly more serious note, Seether not only aware, but a product of the whole thing, on his words:
“found us, nurtured us, and has given us the tools to fulfil our birthright as the natural rulers of the universe!”
Now, now, they are slightly more interested than a mere defense of the Confederation. Out of a life of hiding to *rule the universe*. Not the galaxy, mind you. How exactly did the Black Lance planned to rule the universe, sadly, we might never find out. And I’m not just being ironic, I really wonder what he meant by that.
Well, this falls into the "we don't really know that" category and so isn't a fact.
That’s my point. Since it’s never put into action, we can’t know for sure that it would work. Of course it was expected to work by the people who planned it.
The important thing to note here, of course, is that the T-Bomb was not Tolwyn's project... and that Tolwyn's project (the Behemoth) involved destroying the planet's surface rather than the planet itself.
But I thought “anything at the end of that point is destroyed”, like that planet on Loki system. Anyway, Tolwyn didn’t knew what would cause to show up, did he?
Well, no, they didn't -- Confed discovered a fleet that it claimed it could not possibly defeat and had millions of its civilians killed by a simple RIF group.
Still not defeated. And what good would the Black Lance do in that case? Apart from slightly better pilots than avarege. Most of its research was available to Confed, and was not of much use anyway, since they don’t seem to be able to use cloaking devices and flashpaks against the bugs. Dragons are excellent for covert operations against our own ships, but likely wouldn’t have the same edge against the bugs. The G.E. could bring some results, but the whole Gen-Select thing would logically not produce immediate results. How did the Black Lance expect to win against *that*?
But, still, Confed was not destroyed so far, so that part of Tolwyn’s prediction was yet to happen.
What this boils down to is that we don't know how the events started in Prophecy end yet... but that's not effective rhetoric, since it's simply an unknown.
Let’s hope we’ll find out someday.
Well, no, they haven't, because we don't win the war with the Nephilim -- we simply see it start (which would seem to prove that Tolwyn was actually right about that aspect.)
He was, indeed, but I don’t see how the Gen-Select part of the plan would’ve been of much help in such a short period.
It doesn't even show that, because there's simply no way for Wing Commander III to show anything that doesn't involve Blair. What if Blair doesn't drop the T-Bomb and then fights in a traditional campaign against the Grand Fleet where he's responsible for turning the tide of the battle (as he as done so many times in the past)? There's no way to know - 'the losing endgame says!' doesn't cover such a scenario at all.
That would be a terrific alternate ending. You have got to love this gallant, last ditch battles against overwhelming odds.
No, they don't. Prophecy ends with the claim that the fleet on the other side of the Kilrah Gate is so large that the only way to save the day is to block it from passing through. Secret Ops ends with the claim that the Nephilim can open wormholes fairly regularly.
So, why they only open two of them? Why not half a dozen, making any attempts to close them even more futile? Unknown, of course. Actually, dramatic necessity for the plot is the likely answer.
^^ that's everything you said about eugnics... a word that is not mentioned once in Wing Commander IV. I appreciate your need to attach a modern philosphy to Wing Commander, but you're confused. No one is saying (and no one has ever said) that Tolwyn is doing the right thing in slaughtering people.
What we are claiming is that there is no evidence that his plan was scientifically flawed. All the characters seem happy to accept that the study of genetics and bioconvergence (something we don't even have!) by the 27th century has lead to the understanding that whatever Tolwyn's philosophy (which you liken to eugenics -- which I think is a bad analogy, since scientists today are becoming less and less squemish about that 'philosophy' in terms of identifying genetic defects and such) is, however *morally wrong* it is, it is not based on some kind of foolish pretense.
There's no claim that Tolwyn was stupid. There's no intended irony in Wing Commander IV. The idea is that you fight through the game and then laugh because his goal was impossible -- that lessens the idea in the first place. The threat that he *could* build the warrior race is supposed to be terrifying, not the idea that he's some happy go lucky killer out to finish off the human race by accident.
All right, so let me get this straight. I was not claiming there was some hidden irony on WCIV this regard. Of course I know Tolwyn had reason to believe in what he did, even tough he probably was crazy, he was not an idiot and not a fool. This is not meant to be in detriment of his character. As you see, I changed my point a bit in the light of what you said. While we can’t say for sure it wouldn’t work based on what WC tells us, however that doesn’t mean it will. Tolwyn surely thinks so, but he could be wrong, or things could not go as planned.
He might have been suffering from overconfidence about the whole thing, since he declares himself to be *invincible* against Blair. Perhaps that was denial about the Behemoth disaster that cost so much to him. Or maybe, in fact, he was too sure about the whole thing would work and was ignoring any evidence in contrary, like the possibility that Blair would be able to pull it off.
Maybe it was possible, maybe not. We’ll never know because it was never put into effect. But still, the basic idea behind Tolwyn’s thinking date back from the 19th century. That’s not something I’m making up, but his “primary universal law” he repeats on the game, “The Strong Shall Survive”, dates from there, at least in this context. That’s not to say more advanced future technology was not in place, and of course it was.
It’s not just about just making supersoldiers, like the GE Program, an elite force, but bringing up the genetic standard of everyone. Bioconvergence was fairly new, and we don’t know how old the plan actually is. What we know for sure, because that’s what Wing Commander tells us, is that they had an *incomplete* knowledge of bioconvergence and had to acquire a scientist to finish the weapon.
So while of course it would be impossible to know for certain about how possible or likely the results would be, we can at least acknowledge the possibility that it would not work in the intended way, or even produce unintended results.
